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Where are all the programmers?
- Thread starter ClassicHasClass
- Start date
Charlieman
Well-known member
I generally agree with that. Programs aren't that small, however. The runtime (which is embedded in a compiled program) was 1MB+ when I used RB 2.5. Fine for Mac IIs and Quadras, but not for a Plus or SE. I briefly investigated writing an extension that would enable contextual menus in System 7, but I think that my first compile was 1.5MB in size.
Porter is being a naughty, contrary boy
RB has a relatively modern style and encourages good practice.Mike Richardson
Banned
REALbasic v1.1.1 has a very small runtime. I think it uses internal compression, because when you stuff a blank app, it barely gets smaller. This was back when they still cared about such things as file size.
http://mikerichardson.name/graveyard/Systaller.sit
This is an old app I made originally in RB v2.1.2 where it was 325K. Then I ported it down to RB v1.1.1 and it shrunk to 164K. The .sit file is 168K.
The programming style is also very modern compared to just about all of the other choices. There's free garbage collection on top of that, so you don't have to worry about memory. It's not suitable for System 6, but I think you could get by on System 7.0.1 with maybe a few extensions like Drag Manager.
Just to sweeten the pot even further - you can use XCMDs and XCFNs in your REALbasic programs! v1.1.1 does not let you Declare into the toolbox though.
Here is my attempt to write a BASIC environment in REALbasic. I think this one is compiled in REALbasic v2.1.2. http://mikerichardson.name/graveyard/SilverBASIC.sit
It includes a "Runtime68K" file. Basically the "compiler" just bundles your BASIC source code with the Runtime program to create a stand alone app. You could use this to make really simple apps if you wanted to.
There's the far more advanced SilverCreator v1.5. The editor is PPC only, but you can deploy the compiled games onto 68K. This is made with at least REALbasic v3.2 so I know you must have at least System 7.5 to run the apps. http://www.silvercreator.net/downloads/SilverCreator1.5PPC.sitx
I still distribute SilverCreator v1.5 because it's the last one that runs on Classic at all. The new v2.0 versions are OS X only.
http://mikerichardson.name/graveyard/Systaller.sit
This is an old app I made originally in RB v2.1.2 where it was 325K. Then I ported it down to RB v1.1.1 and it shrunk to 164K. The .sit file is 168K.
The programming style is also very modern compared to just about all of the other choices. There's free garbage collection on top of that, so you don't have to worry about memory. It's not suitable for System 6, but I think you could get by on System 7.0.1 with maybe a few extensions like Drag Manager.
Just to sweeten the pot even further - you can use XCMDs and XCFNs in your REALbasic programs! v1.1.1 does not let you Declare into the toolbox though.
Here is my attempt to write a BASIC environment in REALbasic. I think this one is compiled in REALbasic v2.1.2. http://mikerichardson.name/graveyard/SilverBASIC.sit
It includes a "Runtime68K" file. Basically the "compiler" just bundles your BASIC source code with the Runtime program to create a stand alone app. You could use this to make really simple apps if you wanted to.
There's the far more advanced SilverCreator v1.5. The editor is PPC only, but you can deploy the compiled games onto 68K. This is made with at least REALbasic v3.2 so I know you must have at least System 7.5 to run the apps. http://www.silvercreator.net/downloads/SilverCreator1.5PPC.sitx
I still distribute SilverCreator v1.5 because it's the last one that runs on Classic at all. The new v2.0 versions are OS X only.
ClassicHasClass
Well-known member
So use FutureBASIC. It makes nice, tiny executables. Like I say, I even wrote an extension with FB2 once. And it's freeware!
Bunsen
Admin-Witchfinder-General
ClassicHasClass
Well-known member
Chris is a great guy.
Mike Richardson
Banned
It's too bad FutureBASIC gave up on their own compiler though. That thing generated some stellar code.
They had it going until Carbon PEF PPC, but I'm guessing it would have required a huge re-write just to get to Carbon Mach-O PPC, and then another order of magnitude to get Carbon Mach-O Intel. I'm guessing Staz Software really isn't in business anymore.
They had it going until Carbon PEF PPC, but I'm guessing it would have required a huge re-write just to get to Carbon Mach-O PPC, and then another order of magnitude to get Carbon Mach-O Intel. I'm guessing Staz Software really isn't in business anymore.
Bunsen
Admin-Witchfinder-General
HyperNext looks interesting as a modern version: and it's freeware, which SuperCard is not.
Here's a list of Mac developer tools.
quinterro
Well-known member
While I do code/support for a living, I have never coded a program for either Classic or MacOS X.
FutureBasic appears to be pretty nice. I may put it on my Lombard and see what I can come up with. While it has enough disk space (maybe) for the OS X dev tools, it's only a G3/333....
FutureBasic appears to be pretty nice. I may put it on my Lombard and see what I can come up with. While it has enough disk space (maybe) for the OS X dev tools, it's only a G3/333....
Snial
Well-known member
FB2 looks quite capable, but I haven't managed to get it to run properly on miniVMac yet.
If we're talking freely available 68K development, I'd either go for ThinkPascal 4.5; which *is* quite capable of decent development; being a fairly well-known language; modest memory requirements and a simple object-oriented model. Or I'd go for the MacMeth Modula-2 compiler; which although it has a pretty poor user-interface and poor code-generation and is a fairly obtuse language, yet fits quite nicely in a 4Mb Plus-type environment.
For more advanced 68K development I have a genuine ThinkC 5.0.4 installation on my LC II - why oh why isn't it freely available?
-cheers from Snial @P
ClassicHasClass
Well-known member
MacMETH has possibilities. It's hard to work with and requires a lot of effort to do simple things, but it does make nice tiny executables. I wrote an old 68K benchmark system in METH a number of years ago:
http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/mac/ahl/
I hope I still have the source, it's been a good seven years since I touched it last.
http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/mac/ahl/
I hope I still have the source, it's been a good seven years since I touched it last.
Several people above mentioned FutureBASIC, and i'd like to try it out
(especially now that it's free!), but the only versions i can find to
download are 4.4.3 or later, which will *not* run under OS9 or earlier.
Does anyone know of a good link for downloading ver. 2, 3, or 4.0?
Ver. 4.0 definitely ran under OS9, but perhaps that ver. was not
yet free..? Several sites seem to indicate that 4.x all run under
Classic Mac OS, but they simply do not. Unfortunately the original
site (stazsoftware.com) has recently gone offline.
I want to give FutureBASIC a try because i am not thrilled with
REALbasic which, although very powerful, uses a strict OOP model
that is awkward to use for large projects. TNTbasic and Chipmunk
basic on the other hand, while fun, are not compilers. Thanks.
(especially now that it's free!), but the only versions i can find to
download are 4.4.3 or later, which will *not* run under OS9 or earlier.
Does anyone know of a good link for downloading ver. 2, 3, or 4.0?
Ver. 4.0 definitely ran under OS9, but perhaps that ver. was not
yet free..? Several sites seem to indicate that 4.x all run under
Classic Mac OS, but they simply do not. Unfortunately the original
site (stazsoftware.com) has recently gone offline.
I want to give FutureBASIC a try because i am not thrilled with
REALbasic which, although very powerful, uses a strict OOP model
that is awkward to use for large projects. TNTbasic and Chipmunk
basic on the other hand, while fun, are not compilers. Thanks.
MacMETH just makes me want to scream in horror!!!
In college at OSU back in 1990 Modula-2 was the first language they taught us. We didn't get to C until 1994. My favorite still to this day was the extremely bizzare Pegasus Pascal for the IIGS. I remember using it for lots of my discrete math projects and confusing the professors. Pegasus was a "fuzzy" compiler so I would custom craft certain mistakes in the source that I knew how it would correct then compile.
But we did Modula-2 on the Mac Plus 4 mb machines and then on Sun 4 workstations.. ahh the good ole days. IIRC Tim Meekins was stuck in those same labs on campus when he was writing parts of GNO. And he suffered the same Mod2 stuff too!
In college at OSU back in 1990 Modula-2 was the first language they taught us. We didn't get to C until 1994. My favorite still to this day was the extremely bizzare Pegasus Pascal for the IIGS. I remember using it for lots of my discrete math projects and confusing the professors. Pegasus was a "fuzzy" compiler so I would custom craft certain mistakes in the source that I knew how it would correct then compile.
But we did Modula-2 on the Mac Plus 4 mb machines and then on Sun 4 workstations.. ahh the good ole days. IIRC Tim Meekins was stuck in those same labs on campus when he was writing parts of GNO. And he suffered the same Mod2 stuff too!
ClassicHasClass
Well-known member
I like MacMETH a lot, but I think it's just because I was such a Pascal bug back in the day. (Makes Mac development perfect, no? ;-) ) I also got a lot of wear out of Turbo Pascal, and it was an easy jump to Modula-2.
That isn't to say I didn't do my fair share of cussing at the compiler, of course.
Paul, I'm looking around for my FB2 and FB3. If I find them, I'll put them on the gopher server unless someone beats me to it.
That isn't to say I didn't do my fair share of cussing at the compiler, of course.
Paul, I'm looking around for my FB2 and FB3. If I find them, I'll put them on the gopher server unless someone beats me to it.
Bunsen
Admin-Witchfinder-General
I've ordered a handful of programming books from the US of A:
Tao of Objects: Beginners guide to OO Programming
A guide to Programming and Logic Design
Palm Programming for the Absolute Beginner
I picked them up for a handful of bucks each from a seller I was buying other stuff from, as I tend to learn better from books than screen-reading.
I also picked up the classic "Art Of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill.
Tao of Objects: Beginners guide to OO Programming
A guide to Programming and Logic Design
Palm Programming for the Absolute Beginner
I picked them up for a handful of bucks each from a seller I was buying other stuff from, as I tend to learn better from books than screen-reading.
I also picked up the classic "Art Of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill.
ClassicHasClass
Well-known member
I found my .sea of FBII. I also have a big ol' CD of it, which is probably not of interest. I'm still trying to find where my FBIII CD went.
