Recommend a support Mac for my Color Classic Mystic

[mraroid]

Hi....
 
I need a second mac computer to support my Color Classic Mystic.  I would like to do things like down load from the Mac garden and other places.  I would like to burn CDs that my Color Classic can read.  It would be nice if I had floppy support.  Can I still surf the Internet under 9.22?  Or do I need to move to a early version of OSX?  I can get very confused by the many file formats that are available for a Mac.  Probably the newest OS I would like to support and run on my CC Mystic is 8.1.
 
I see mac G5 tower computers on Craig's list all the time, and they do not seem that expensive.  I thought I could install a solid state drive and then load a very early version of OSX, and then a classic OS on top of it.   Can I burn CDs on a G5 tower that could be read by early external SCSI CD drives for a CC? Could I install a external USB floppy drive on a G5 tower that could write floppies that my Color Classic could read? I would like fast hardware if I could get it.   I am guessing that I can still buy faster video cards for a G5 that would run under a early version of OSX?  Which early OSX version would be recommended? Could I down load CC software to the G5 tower, and then network it over to the CC?
 
I am not so interested in learning about OSX, but it would be fun to load early classic OSs on the CC like 6, or 7.1.  Right now I can boot to 7.5.6 or 8.1. I have a third partition that has no OS on it.  It would be nice to try version 6 something if the CC could support it.
 
Suggestions welcome.  I suspect that I would buy the wrong computer and OS unless I ask for help here first.
 
Thanks,
mraroid
 
 

 

[davidg5678]

A Powermac G5 is capable of running both 10.4 Tiger and 10.5 Leopard. A new enough and well upgraded G5 can survive somewhat decently on the modern-ish internet using the 10 FourFox browser. These operating systems are both capable of writing to HFS partitions without any hacks. (Meaning that Zip or Floppy disks can be directly used.) 10.4 Tiger is also able to run the classic environment as a compatibility layer for OS9 and below. This means you could probably decompress stuffit files with appropriate software.

In terms of burning CDs, I believe it is possible to do under the most recent operating systems as an iso file does not get decompressed during the burn process.

What would probably be preferable would be to look for a Beige PowerMac G3 machine as they are some of the most powerful computers with compatibility for older Macs (features including USB, ADB, Ethernet, LocalTalk, Floppy/Zip Support, and SCSI. They also can run OS8 through 10.2.8.

A G4 Tower or Laptop would also be better than a G5 as many can boot directly into OS9 (which is better than classic) while doing everything else the G5 can without being as massive.

Before buying anything, I would highly recommend checking the exact model for compatibility with the OS you want. (Not all G4s can run OS9.)

 

[mraroid]

Davidg5678....

Thank you so much for the good information.  I will take the G5 tower off my list.  I will look into a beige PowerMac G3. A G4 seems interesting, but maybe a G3 will do the job.  It would be nice to have USB suport.

Thanks again,

mraroid

 

[Cory5412]

Almost anything would be "fine" - a PPC or even a really fast '040 Mac can browse Macintosh Garden with Netscape 4. I've been using a Beige G3 for a lot of my file transfer work, but there's no reason any G4 or even a G5 wouldn't be able to do it. I believe as new as 10.5 supports AppleTalk, for example.

If you can get networking working, your best bet is to use networking to transfer files between the two machines. Ethernet would be better, but you can still use an Ethernet-only Mac (Power Mac G4/G5, for example) with a localtalk/ethertalk bridge. Just be aware that in most cases those bridges can only connect AppleTalk networks together.

G3/G4 machines that can boot into OS 9 directly are mainly better if you want networking to work really well and be a little more guaranteed. The Beige G3 or older is only required if you can't find an ET/LT bridge or you are using your LCPDS slot for something else (Apple IIe card, for example.)

I like the beige g3 a lot, so don't get me wrong here, but almost the only reason to choose it specifically is if you have a strong need for both a big-ish IDE disk and serial-based localtalk on one machine. Otherwise, newer Macs handle big disks better and older PowerMacs aren't that much worse in terms of OS 8/9 browser compatibility and networking.

I recommend against looking at Zip specifically for data transfer, in favor of using floppies or networks when possible, unless you already have a sizeable investment in it.

USB floppy drives work fine in OS 9 through 10.5 for 1.44MB media, which is what you'd be using with a CC. If you've got a working CD drive on your CC, you can use Toast or Disk Copy on a Mac OS 9 (or Disk Utility on OS X up to 10.5) to build custom CD images that the CC can read with lots of different things on them at once. I used to burn a CD from my PowerBook G4 with whatever stuff I wanted to have around for my 840 and 7300 on a regular basis, for example.

Another option if your CC has ethernet networking is to use a system like vtools using 7.5.x with all OT+AS patches or newer.  Part of the point in my developing that system is to assist people whose transfer Macs are beige OS9 or older machines, which are increasingly unable to participate in the modern Internet, or people who are running system 7 on an '030 or better and have Internet connectivity.

One more thought: If you have a SCSI2SD and it is in a convenient spot, you can shut down your CC, remove the SD card, and put it in an SD or microSD reader on any newer Mac with USB and transfer files directly onto your boot volume like that. Using up to 10.5 for just-HFS write support is advisable.

The short answer is that it's possible to bridge using almost anything that can run 10.5 in one way or another, even Intel-based Macs made up through around 2008/2009 or so when 10.5 was current. Depending on the spec of your CC and what specific stuff you might need to do, you might not need a bridge machine at all. Though, with the original board, Netscape 4 on that particular '030 and 10 megs of RAM is going to be dire, so even a Quadra or a nice '030 Mac is going to be an improvement.

Another thing to consider is if there's "literally anything made between 1994 and 2009" that strikes your interest, specifically - do you want a G5? Then get one, it will work, but you'll need to consider what your workflow will be.

 

[Cory5412]

I just noticed you indicated this was a Mystic.

In that specification, 7.5 or 7.6.1 and 8.1 are probably the sweet spots, but I believe the 575 & co had a 7.1 install available as well, that would be fun to try.

If you have ethernet and "enough" RAM (you'll want 16MB or more, NS4.7 on my G3 uses 9MB while a MacGarden page is open), you'll be able to browse macgarden directly and use stuffit expander 5.5 to open almost anything. You don't, strictly speaking, need a support Mac. I would navigate whatever browser you can get on it to start (even if that's CyberDog) to system7today.com to get all the latest OT+AppleShare updates and a browser.

The main reason to bother with another Mac is if you haven't upgraded the display to 640x480, at which point browsing Mac Garden will be a little annoying. (I just looked, it won't be impossible, but it will be annoying.)

There's a version of the SCSI2SD V5.1 with an external SCSI connector, you should be able to use an appropriately wired cable (such as the SCSI cable from an Iomega Zip drive) to connect it externally.

 

[just.in.time]

@mraroid

I agree with @Cory5412, if you can get the CC on your network life will be significantly easier.  I have one of these https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Apple-Computer-Macintosh-Mac-Color-Classic-PDS-Ethernet-Card-LC-Performa/272846522387?epid=2241961242&hash=item3f86eb8813:rk:1f:0 and it seems to work pretty well.  There are plenty of other examples right around that $15 cost point as well.  So not horribly expensive, about 1/10 the cost of adding ethernet to an SE/30.  Once you have your Mystic CC up and running on a network, the Garden is browsable (still pretty slow), or you can run AppleTalk file sharing or (in my opinion, better) an FTP file server from the CC and then just push files to it from any computer running FileZilla or another FTP client.  I use NetPresentz on my CC.  That's what I do from my MacBook, but Windows would work acceptably for the task as well.

Any computer with a CD writer should be able to burn .iso or .toast images just fine (windows or mac), you only really need to worry about the authoring computer's OS if you are making a disc from scratch as opposed to just writing an image.  That's where resource files can get broke, etc.  That said, stick to CD-R discs burned at a low speed (I usually do 4x).  That seems to have the best compatibility with the older SCSI ere CD-ROMs.  I can confirm that my Apple 300e external CD-ROM has yet to be able to read a CD-RW disc.  Maybe later revisions or a 600e can do it, but mine definitely can't, unfortunately.

I will agree with others here as well that the G5, just for the sake of a bridge Mac, is probably not the best choice.  If you want one for the sake of having one, go for it.  Otherwise, there are better options on both end of the spectrum.  On the old side, a Beige G3 is a great machine for all the reasons @davidg5678 (and while 10.2.8 is the last official version, 10.4.11 runs well with enough RAM and XPostFacto support  ), @Cory5412 added a few reasons as well, and also notated some of its shortcomings. However, I'll also throw in that if you ever plan on using a Mac that needs 400k/800k disks, I do believe the Beige G3 is the last desktop Mac to support being able to work with those disks due to the floppy disk hardware.  I think even then the 400k disks may have some limitations.  But 800k has clean support to 9.2.2 on a Beige G3.

Jumping to the new side of the bridge Mac spectrum, I'd throw in a recommendation for the Mid 2009 13" MacBook Pro.  It shipped with 10.5.x, which I believe Leopard is the last Mac OS to support read/write of 1.44 mb disks via a USB floppy drive.  Also, as mentioned above I am pretty sure 10.5.x is the last version to be able to speak AppleTalk lingo out of the box with no mods.  More importantly though, this particular Mac also supports SATA-3 disks, so a modern-ish SSD will fly pretty fast and should saturate that connection, and it can be upgraded to 8gb of 1066mhz ram.  OS support officially ends at 10.11.x and Windows 7.  However, I can speak from experience that Windows 8.1 will work fine with some playing around of the drivers (I used to own the 2.53ghz model of this machine up to 2014 before I got my rMBP).  And it appears that there are tweaks to get it to run up to Mojave as well (http://dosdude1.com/mojave/), so a triple boot/partitioned drive for Mac OS 10.5.8/macOS 10.14.x/Windows 8.1 (maybe 10 instead?) would allow great coverage and browser support, while still giving USB floppy disk support (1.44 mb only of course, but fine for CC), general HFS read/write support at the desktop, and a computer that could still be comfortably used for general day to day tasks (i.e. web browsing, current MS Office, Netflix, etc).  And yes, it has a built in SuperDrive for burning CD-Rs.  All while being significantly smaller than a G5 tower, using way less power, and easy to tuck away when not in use.  Hmm... I kinda wish I hadn't sold mine back in 2014, but getting $600 USD for a 5 year old laptop to go towards my rMBP seemed like a good deal at the time.

Last, but not least, I don't believe the 575 board in your Mystic (or even the original CC board) is capable of booting into System 6.  I believe your options are limited to 7.1 through 8.1.  Maybe someone else can confirm that.  Good luck!  

 

[nglevin]

G5s are fine, they just make for better PPC Linux boxes thanks to 64 bit POWER4 lineage and they are CHEAP. They won't do everything a beige G3 or PM 9600 can, but they have their benefits as a Logic Node and they can still run Classic when you need it.

It shipped with 10.5.x, which I believe Leopard is the last Mac OS to support read/write of 1.44 mb disks via a USB floppy drive.

What I'm about to suggest is ridiculous and has no pragmatic value.

You can write to floppies in FAT and even HFS+ (not stock HFS) in High Sierra. The only reason I can't tell you if this still works in Mojave is because I've not tried this.

The reason why I haven't, is that all versions of Mac OS X since Tiger write a number of hidden files on writable disks, and the bloat is significant for how little capacity there is on a floppy starting from either Snow Leopard or Lion. Still, you want your bytes to count, and Mac OS X is a better OS for shuffling CF cards than relatively low capacity floppy disks.

 

[Cory5412]

The reason why I haven't, is that all versions of Mac OS X since Tiger write a number of hidden files on writable disks

This is a good point, and I recommend using networking if OS X gets involved at all, and avoiding floppies in that particular case. Linux + netatalk compiled for appletalk support would also do this well, and is most likely a more secure use of a G5 or a late G4, but may or may not be what someone prefers, especially when 10.4 and 10.5 will do it out of the box.

SD cards for a SCSI2SD or CF cards for PCMCIA-having PowerBooks should also work well in OS X, and although you'll get invisible files (which might become visible under Classic), they'll be less annoying than on floppy diskettes.

There's also when you're running Mac OS 8.1 or newer on something, you can use HFS+ formatted removable media and secondary disks, so your "bridge machine" can at that point be literally any Mac. Even a brand new one you bring home from the apple store today. This is most relevant if someone does want to use external removable media, like Zip, Jaz, MO, or whatever, as part of their workflow. (or an SCSI2SD and one or more SD card.) (68k Macs can't boot HFS+ volumes, but if you were using 8.1 on a 68k with 8.1, you could do a 2GB HFS boot volume and a [rest of the card of literally any current size] HFS+ configuration and use the big HFS+ partition as 

I wouldn't recommend using Windows, or FAT-formatted volumes, to transfer data to old Macs unless you're either moving super generic file types or you already have some utilities that can recover files. Stuffed or binhexed/HQXed files can be transferred this way, but not all software archives bother to store all of their files that way. If you were, say, using Stuffit 5 running in Classic Mode to just drop whatever you wanted onto multi-part SIT files, it wouldn't matter that much, but that's kind of a complicated workflow, and definitely an #oddlyspecific scenario.

However, I'll also throw in that if you ever plan on using a Mac that needs 400k/800k disks, I do believe the Beige G3 is the last desktop Mac to support being able to work with those disks due to the floppy disk hardware.  I think even then the 400k disks may have some limitations.  But 800k has clean support to 9.2.2 on a Beige G3.

Mostly correct: 9.2.2 is able to read and write 1.44 and 800k diskettes. 400k diskettes need system 7.5.5 or earlier, so you're looking at, realistically, a PowerMac X100 or any '030 or '040 Mac as a bridge for Macs that have 400k diskette drives. (Possibly a reason to consider 7.5.5/8.1 dual boot on something like a CC Mystic.) (there are a couple newer power macs that will boot 7.5.5, like the 4400, 6400, 7200/7300/7500, 8500, and 9500, but 7.5.x was never to my personal taste, so I'd probably do 400k disk handling on something running 7.1, but that's just me.)

More on that is here: http://lowendmac.com/2016/floppy-disk-compatibility-and-incompatibility-in-the-mac-world/

TL;DR - networking is your friend, the card @just.in.time linked should work really well.

The main reason to use 10.5 (over, say, Mac OS X 10.14) is because appletalk and ASIP file sharing between it and system 7/8/9 work, meaning you don't need to bother with FTP and the potential issues there. (binhexing files before transmitting them to preserve resource forks, for example). This is one thing I haven't even tested using ASIP's FTP server, but I'm not expecting really great results.

 

[mraroid]

Thanks to everyone for all the good intel.  I need to re read all that has been posted so I can figure it all out. Give me a day or two.
 
Here is an update on my Color Classic Mystic....
 
I have a Ethernet card in it and it is connected to my router (LInksys WRT 1900).  I have a PC laptop and two Windows 10 computers on my home network. I have 132 MBs of RAM, and a CF2SCSI card for a hard drive.  I have three partitions.  One is 7.6.1, the other is 8.1 and the third is just storage. My CF card is massive - each partition is about 4GBs large.  I have made the 640 X 480 mod and my Sony CRT looks awesome.
 
I am running Netscape Communicator 4.08 under 8.1.  I can surf the internet if I only go to web sites that support older web pages.  I tried to go to Mac Gardens with this set up, but it always failed.  So that is why I would like a second Mac. I want to down load files, and move them to CDs or floppies.  It would be really cool if the second Mac I bought could be on the network and then I could share files with the Color Classic over the network. But I am unsure of how to do that just yet.
 
It was a job getting the Color Classic up to this stage.  Now it is time to make the second leap forward.  I want to buy a support Mac that can actually surf the internet and burn CDs and floppies that I can stick in the Color Classic.
 
I tried to install 7.1 on my third partition but it was a no go.  It would be really nice if I could install 6 something.  When using a CF card, can I .re format a single partition with out changing the 8.1 and 7.6.1 partitions? I would just love it if I could boot to 6 something, 7.1, 7.6.1 and 8.1
 
I am about to re read all that has been posted, then I will be back.   I appreciate all the help and advise.
 
mraroid
 
 
 
 

 

[nglevin]

I think early HFS had a hard limit of a 2 GB partition size, which is probably where you're running into trouble with System 7.1. There's a great thread on volume size limits by System version right here on 68kMLA.

System 6.0.8L doesn't run on Color Classics, though there was some speculation on Applefritter that with the original Color Classic motherboard and a ROM for an LC II, it might be possible. That's some significant hackery, and a long shot if it works.

The hacky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Picker might work for switching between system versions on the same partition. It's never been known to be reliable. The best solution is still to have separate partitions per OS and use the Startup Disk control panel to switch between them.

EDIT: Last thing is that you do need a special version of System 7.1 for an LC 575 motherboard. Look for an "LC 575 install me first" CD-ROM, that should be the right disk for the earliest possible System 7 on that hardware.

 

[just.in.time]

EDIT: Last thing is that you do need a special version of System 7.1 for an LC 575 motherboard. Look for an "LC 575 install me first" CD-ROM, that should be the right disk for the earliest possible System 7 on that hardware.

If you can't find the official 575 CD, then I believe the Apple Software Restore 1994 disc on the garden may be able to reinstall 7.1 for you with the proper System Enablers.

400k diskettes need system 7.5.5 or earlier

Good catch, I knew there was something different with the 400k disks vs the 800k disks, but couldn't quite recall what it was.

 

[M235i]

I'll throw my 2 cents in quickly. Surprised no one mentioned in detail the Power Mac G4's as a bridge unit. It is one of the best Macs you can get. The fastest to run OS 9 natively (dual 1.25 7450e's in the '02 MDD), excellent in Tiger or Leopard, ample connectivity for everything under the mac sun (USB, FW, PCI, etc), and the early ones also have Zip drive support.

 

[Cory5412]

Surprised no one mentioned in detail the Power Mac G4's as a bridge unit.

I did.

That said: I'm using a Beige G3@300 for everything and it's "fine".

Given that the 68k in question has Ethernet, I'd say that would be the better route to go than any kind of removable media. Although having a machine with a CD burner can be a benefit as well.

The value of a Power Mac G4 is going to be that you can easily expand its storage with SATA and USB and that it has Ethernet and speaks AppleTalk - not that it's fast or because some of them have Zip installed.

They're great machines, I think they are perfectly suited to this task, but: so is a 6100 or a 6200. So is an 8500. So is a Walstreet.

 

[Brett B.]

Just about any G3 or G4 would be great - iMacs included (get a USB floppy drive.)  Older PowerMacs would be fine too but the limitation there is the cost of SCSI CD burner drives, although I suppose you could get a Firewire/USB/ATA PCI card for some of them and then it'd be a non-issue.  I'm a huge Beige G3 fan so you know what'd I'd recommend.

 

[Cory5412]

I want to clarify here, given what @mraroid has indicated: the qualifying factors for this task in this situation should be:

• Has PowerPC
  
• Has enough RAM to run Netscape 4.8
  
• Has Ethernet
  
• Can run Mac OS 10.5 or older
  

Given that the main task seems like it is "connecting to Macintosh Garden" - which Netscape 4.0.8 for 68k is said not to do. (I can't confirm.)

Anything else is extra icing.

 

[mraroid]

Folks....
 
I am truly amazed that my Mystic could load Netscape 4.8 and maybe get to Mac Gardens.  I thought it was impossible.
 
Anyone here have Netscape 4.8 for 68k?  Will it fit on a floppy?  I would be happy to Pay Pal anyone who can mail me a floppy of Netscape 4.8.  I can pay pal you in advance, and pay for postage and your time. I live in Salem Oregon USA.  If I can not get to Mac Gardens with 4.8, I am good with it anyway, as I would like to run the most current browser that I can under 8.1.
 
I still want to buy a support Mac for my Mystic.  I am looking over my options.  But the thought of getting my Mystic on line with Mac Gardens is too good to pass up.  Once i am connected, then I can down load the tools I need.
 
Thanks!
 
mraroid
 

 

[Cory5412]

When I looked at System7Today, it said that 4.0.8 is the latest for 68k.

I've got Netscape 4.7 on my beige G3 and it is able to load, search, and download from Mac Garden.

 

[just.in.time]

Netscape 4.7

Just curious, why 4.7 instead of 4.8?

 

[Unknown_K]

For a bridge system you will need a mac new enough to still be able to browse the web and old enough to have ethernet and cheap SCSI cards (for external HD's and ZIP/Jazz/etc) while still working with HFS. Having the ability to write floppy disks is also good.

Not all vintage machines will have ethernet so you will need external SCSI devices (like say a zip drive or CDROM drive) to make media to setup an old 68k machine.

I support systems from a 68000 SE up to the G5 PPC towers using some cheap core2 OSX Apple laptops or Imacs and intermediate machines depending on how far down the line I need to go.