Quicksilver vs. MDD

[Emehr]

I'm in the market for either a Quicksilver (Dual 1GHz) or a MDD (Dual 1.25GHz FW400) and wanted to get some opinions. I need something that boots Mac OS 9 natively and can run OS X at a usable speed and is reliable.

Speed - Would either machine have equivalent performance to my 12" PowerBook G4 (1.33GHz)? I realize the PowerBook has a faster CPU but I wasn't sure if the Quicksilver or MDD, with their dual processors, would perform better with Garageband, for example.

Reliability - I did my homework and heard the MDDs have issues with PSUs. I read that you can transplant a standard PC power supply. Are there any other quirks with the system? On the other hand, I haven't read anything about Quicksilver reliability issues. Are these considered one of the more robust PowerMacs or am I just not looking hard enough?

Boot disks - I read that the MDD won't boot from a standard OS 9 disk because it requires 9.2.2 and OS 9 disks only go up to like 9.1 or 9.2, IIRC. That's not a huge biggie because I found the OEM images online. What about the Quicksilver? Lowendmac says it requires the same minimum system but I haven't found the OEM disk images online. Would I be able to use the MDD disks?

Thanks for any help and insight! I'm looking to free my 12" Powerbook G4 from the confines of being used as a desktop and I'm torn as to which PowerMac to get.

 

[beachycove]

Dual+cache=performance.

 

[CJ_Miller]

I recommend going for a MDD, but don't pass up a Quicksilver if there is one around. The faster MDDs run with a 166MHz system bus, which is the fastest there is for OS9, and this is crucial for multimedia work. Only the Firewire 400 MDDs boot in OS9, there are also versions with a FW800 port which will not boot anything but X. You want the two FW400 ports only. One excellent thing is that the FW800 versions were available with CPUs up to a dual 1.42GHz, which is really nice, and the CPUs are compatible with the FW400 logic boards. Also the CPUs from the G4 XServe work as well, a dual 1.33GHz can be had for less than a 1.42 but it is quite close, and can be safely overclocked to the same speed. Avoid the 867 MHz MDD, it has a slower bus and IIRC is hobbled in some other ways.

Max RAM I think is 2GB. Fastest video card is the GeForce Ti 4600 which has 128MB of VRAM and was the last AGP card to have OS 9 drivers for 3d acceleration.

I have never had PSU problems with mine. ATX can be converted, easiest to use an ATX extender cable and wire the voltages to the appropriate pins. The only problems with this is it lacks one voltage needed for the cinema display, maybe +24V? Anyway it is not difficult to add a 24 volt line if you need it, there is even a 7824 voltage regulator which just puts out +24V with a few extra parts.

Installing the OS 9 image is easy, just partition your drive first with two partitions and OS 9 drivers. Install X on one of them, and drag the 9.2.2 system folder to the other partition.

 

[Emehr]

Cool, thanks! That helps a lot. I didn't realize I could drop a FW800 processor into a FW400. Never thought about it I guess. That's great to know. I'm definitely sticking to either a Dual 1GHz Quicksilver or Dual 1.25GHz FW400 MDD and nothing older. Looks like I'm leaning more towards the MDD.

I'll keep an eye out for a GeForce Ti 4600 too.

 

[Gorgonops]

I have a Dual 1.25 MDD FW400 (The *very* last OS9-bootable "Power Mac") and here's a couple observations:

Speed: With Dual 1.25 CPUs and the Radeon 9000 video card in general use the machine "feels" about as fast as the 1.5Ghz PowerBook G4s I have kicking around the house. It's faster in some ways, slower in others. (Hard disk access==faster; absolute performance running, for instance, Flash video==slower) I'm sure that if you found some task that leveraged both CPUs efficiently it would be significantly faster in terms of "wall-clock time elapsed" than the single-CPU Powerbook in completing a batch processing job. But in terms of "interactive use" I really don't get the feeling the second CPU makes that much difference.

So... as G4s go an MDD is fast, but it's worth pointing out the obvious: the machine is a complete and total slug compared to a Macbook Pro. I occasionally use the machine to capture video from a DV camcorder because it has a nice large hard drive in it, but after rendering one or two projects in iDVD on it and having it take the better part of a day I came up with a new work flow: I capture the video on the G4, reboot it into Target Disk mode, and hook up my MacBook to create the DVD from the footage. It's insane how much faster the Intel CPUs are. I'm sure you probably knew this already, but figured I'd mention it since I don't know exactly what you want the G4 *for*. If it's to run 2006 or earlier vintage software an MDD should serve you well. But if you're expecting it to be a better "daily driver" for the modern web than your Powerbook it will brutally disappoint.

OS 9 booting: To my knowledge pretty much any machine Apple made faster than about 700-800Mhz that could boot OS 9 wanted to have a special tweaked version of 9.2.2, and said tweaked version was distributed on the OS X-based software recovery disks that shipped with it. (Wikipedia has a giant table that points out which machines required "machine specific versions" of 9.2.2.). I *think* the fastest "Quicksilvers" are the one exception, in that they'll boot with the "generic" OS 9.2.something disks you could order from Apple if you needed it after... 10.1?, 10.2? came out? (My memory is fuzzy on this one.)

I'd say it behooves you to try to get the software recovery disk with any machine you happen to buy if at all possible, since I have observed real issues with transferring the "tweaked" versions of OS 9 from one machine to another, and presumably that might also be an issue if you, say, installed the "MDD recovery disk" version on a Quicksilver... which would require hacking anyway. To "install" OS 9 on an MDD you have to install OS X to be able to run the Software Recovery tool which copies OS 9 to a disk partition. The recovery tool is keyed to the machine type, so if you were to run the MDD version on a Quicksilver it would probably barf. It's "easy" to work around this problem, but I'd still worry a little if some machine-specific tweak might cause subtle problems.

(Just for fun, here's the problems I've observed with these specific versions:

1: With the "Powerbook G4 Titanium 867Mhz" version of 9.2.2 on a B&W G3 via a disk imaging the B&W was never stable. In particular the video acceleration extensions were farkled and there were sound problems. They went away when I reinstalled with generic OS 9.0.4 and upgraded to 9.2.2 manually. Oddly the B&W also seems to do fine with an Aluminum-era G4 "Classic support only" system folder... off a 10.3 disk, I think.

2: Cube-specific version of 9.0.4 on a tray-loader iMac: Sound was completely busted, and the problem wasn't solved by a 9.1 update. (Interestingly the same problem occurs if you try to use the Cube recovery-disk version in Sheepshaver.) The 9.0.2 from a slightly older Power Mac G4 recovery disk seemed to work fine, however.

3: My MDD doesn't work booting a "Classic" system folder taken off a Tiger-era Powerbook recovery CD. (it gets into 9 but a lot of stuff doesn't work.) I was surprised because I've actually had reasonable luck in the past with recovery-CD Classic images. I'm not sure whether they've stripped down the System folder in later version or my MDD itself is the problem, as I haven't cared enough to dig into it.)

Of course, you may have no problems at all shuffling system folders around at whim. I'm fully prepared to accept that the deep-seated hostility and contempt I have towards OS 9 is mutual and it's just messing with me.

Reliability: My vague understanding is that Apple did a partial recall on the MDDs because of extremely loud power supply fans and that it's the loud-fan supplies that tend to self-destruct. I do see advice regularly that you unplug your MDD when you're not using it, the claim being that letting it sit in standby mode is actually what causes it to fail. So... I dunno. Mine has a reasonably quiet fan and hasn't died yet despite being very heavily used by its previous owner.

Anyway, that's all I know. Again on the speed point... make you're you're buying this turkey for the right reasons. If you want a desktop computer that actually feels "fast" in a 2010-era context you should be saving those pennies for something else.

 

[trag]

The G4 XServe CPUs are available here as a service part for $75 + $10 shipping. Item number: 350411091454 Some obnoxious number available. Looks like it probably doesn't come with a heat sink though, so you'd need the heat sink from a dual, unless the single CPU heat sinks were the same?

Wish I'd seen the above item before I picked up a used XServe for considerably more, but what seemed like a good price at the time.

 

[Emehr]

Thanks for the replies. Lots of good info.

@Gorgonops, I'm mainly using this for Photoshop and After Effects in OS 9, and GarageBand and sound editing in OS X. Right now my B&W G3 serves the OS 9 duties while my PowerBook G4 handles sound and music apps in OS X. I'm looking for something to kind of take over both tasks if I ever needed to slim down my Mac collection. I don't need (and can't afford at this time) newer versions of Photoshop and AE and right now these versions do exactly what I need. I'm not concerned so much about web browsing or watching Flash video. That's what my Intel iMac is for. I need something for real work. Anyway, I appreciate the in-depth info and perspective. Thanks!

If the power supplies of the MDDs are the biggest thing I have to worry about then that's not bad. I just wasn't sure if there were any other crippling issues with the MDDs that I needed to take into consideration. I gotta say, being able to drop a FW800 CPU into the FW400 makes the argument for the MDD that much stronger.

 

[ClassicHasClass]

I've got dual 1.8GHz processors in mine. It's still no Intel Mac beater, of course, but it's really shockingly fast in OS 9.

The last OS 9 eMac's OS 9 install disc will also boot the MDD, and in fact any machine that supports 9.2.2. I use this as a "boot any" disc. They appear on eBay from time to time as an item.

 

[Unknown_K]

Quicksilvers are pretty much dirt cheap lately whiles higher end MDD still command a few hundred, if that makes any difference. Too bad the cheap MDD CPUs wont work in a QS.

 

[jongleur]

My QS2002 2x1gz is still my main machine. To keep it as "useful" as possible, I've added a SATA card so I can add new drives. Slotted in a generic FW400/USB2 card to handle the extra external FW drives that I've added ove time, and the USB2 makes syncing my iPhone so much easier, not to mention drives and flash drives.

Visually, I find the QuickSilvers the best looking PowerMacs of all time, the MDDs just don't have that classic smooth look, and don't get me started on the G5 and subsequent cheese graters.

 

[CJ_Miller]

So... as G4s go an MDD is fast, but it's worth pointing out the obvious: the machine is a complete and total slug compared to a Macbook Pro. I occasionally use the machine to capture video from a DV camcorder because it has a nice large hard drive in it, but after rendering one or two projects in iDVD on it and having it take the better part of a day I came up with a new work flow: I capture the video on the G4, reboot it into Target Disk mode, and hook up my MacBook to create the DVD from the footage. It's insane how much faster the Intel CPUs are. I'm sure you probably knew this already, but figured I'd mention it since I don't know exactly what you want the G4 *for*. If it's to run 2006 or earlier vintage software an MDD should serve you well. But if you're expecting it to be a better "daily driver" for the modern web than your Powerbook it will brutally disappoint.

Again, on a board called "68k Macintosh Liberation Army", obviously many of us are partial to older systems. Our old Macs do not need to be a complete replacement for a contemporary computer.

When I use my MDD for Logic Audilo and (most) Adobe apps in OS9, it is definitely using both processors, which does make a big difference. You picked a funny example because encoding video is probably the last thing I would use an old computer for... I might capture video on my MDD but I would rather do further encoding on my i7 box with FFMPEG. I do use my MDD for encoding audio, and it is very useful for video work, including real time effects. All of my Adobe licenses are the last versions for OS 9, academic, and I simply cannot afford to upgrade them. I use hardware and software which is excellent but either no longer developed, or I can't afford to upgrade. Don't even get me started on my fave plugins - Photoshop, After Effects, VST, Max/MSP externals - which are only on OS 9. Sure, for post-2006 apps the MDD would not be ideal. Even just a year ago it was my main everyday computer and I had no complaints with it.

 

[CJ_Miller]

The G4 XServe CPUs are available here as a service part for $75 + $10 shipping. Item number: 350411091454 Some obnoxious number available. Looks like it probably doesn't come with a heat sink though, so you'd need the heat sink from a dual, unless the single CPU heat sinks were the same?

No, I should have explained, but the heatsinks are not the same. An MDD heatsink would be required for proper cooling. There are aluminum and copper versions, I have had better luck with the copper.

I would *LOVE* to get 9.2.2 running on a G4 Xserve! A hacked MDD 400 ROM would probably work, but it is beyond my abilities. Also I have heard rumors of later, in-house Apple ROM revisions which were able to run 9.2.2 on FW800 boards when they were still considering support for those. But again, I won't hold my breath.

 

[trag]

Also I have heard rumors of later, in-house Apple ROM revisions which were able to run 9.2.2 on FW800 boards when they were still considering support for those. But again, I won't hold my breath.

Yes, that and the magic Apple Network Server ROM which will let it boot into the Mac OS...

 

[CJ_Miller]

Yes, that and the magic Apple Network Server ROM which will let it boot into the Mac OS...

Ohhh yes. My wife hopes that no cheap Shiners ever appear near my house! I mean I AM a bit of a computer nerd, but in my wife's mind I am even worse, because she doesn't really understand what I like about the old gear I have. To test her out, once we got our fairly spacious place here - I told her that because we finally had room, I had bought a Wang mainframe off eBay for some bargain price and it was being delivered on palettes later in the day. She thought her fears had been realized!

 

[ClassicHasClass]

Shiners are getting pretty rare (they were never very common). I have a 500, which has a 200MHz 604e and has been my primary server since 1998 -- it runs the original AIX, with loads of my own custom patches. It's going to be put out to pasture when my POWER6 arrives, but I'll keep it running and up to date. It has a backup 700, which was very convenient -- I could just swap all the parts, disk and drive trays in and out.

 

[firebottle]

Even though the thread is 6 months old... a few observations for those reading this a year or two from now...

The MDD doesn't have any programmer's switch or reset button. But the Quicksilver has these on the front.

You can still connect an older keyboard (like from the imac G3 or charcoal G4) with a power button and have the ability to use the programmer's switch or reset keyboard shortcut. And you can also use an old ADB keyboard using an iMate adapter. This is vital for OS 9 use: "SM 0 A9F4 ... G0" in the pop-up debugger to kill frozen programs.

For the MDD FW400, you definitely need the MDD OS 9 specific install for the newer boot ROM file... and Nvidia drivers (if you have a Geforce 4MX). I think I got mine at an abandonware site. Don't remember which, but I found it with google...

You end up drawing an insane amount of power with a dual CPU MDD in OS 9. At idle with a dual 1ghz in OS 9... my Kill-a-Watt reported 167 watts! My Quicksilver 933mhz was less than 100.

 

[khmann]

I fix Macs for a living. Not many people repair PPC hardware anymore, but from my experience pre-MDDs are way more reliable. Finding a fast processor may take a little more effort, but I think you get a better machine. FWIW, the DA and QSs are essentially the same board, and there are three MDD heatsinks in order of preference: thick finned aluminum, thin fin aluminum and the rare copper one from the 1.42 dual. I'm almost positive the single MDD HS is the same as the dual.

Also, the DA/QS logic board seems to overclock to 150MHz for many people without issue.

Now... where do I get that magic network server rom? I will totally destroy a bazillion machines if it means there is a chance to get OS9 on a DDR Mac (specifically iMac g4 20" ; )

 

[bizzle]

Power supply issues with MDDs (besides the noise) are usually caused by having an ADC display connected and having the machine off or sleeping. The trickle power to the LCD heats the power supply up enough to burn something out because there is no air circulation without the fans on. The best thing you can do is use a different display, use it through an ADC to DVI converter or unplug the display when its sleeping or off. If you aren't using an ADC display I wouldn't worry about it. I had many MDDs that survived many years of 24/7 use. My old MDD server was so taxed for power between its ATi Radeon 9800 pro, four hard drives and expansion cards that if you'd plug in a bus powered firewire hard drive all the internal fans would cut to about half speed. I gave that machine to sp00nix and it still runs great, even with his ADC display.

 

[khmann]

Hmmm... I have similar issues with a couple of mine re: the fans and FireWire externals, even on a machine with only a stock video card and 1 HDD). I wonder if the 24v component is inadequate (mine are all AcBel P/S, which seem more reliable than the Samsungs) That might fit with ADC problems as well.