Networking a Compact Classic to a modern machine

[louiscox]

Hi,

Ive done some extensive reading about networking older machines. Im looking for something that doesn't require a degree in computer science.

I have a 4Mb Classic with 7.5 or 7.6 I think. I also have a Dayna SCSI to ethernet converter.

I also have a Netgear 5 port Gigabit switch.

I have a modern Apple laptop - OSX 10.8 at least.

Im thinking the first hurdle to cross is getting two machines that can talk to each other - i.e. something like an iMac with System 9 or something sat between the two so that the compact can see the iMac, and in turn the iMac can see my modern machine...

Ideally Id like the Classic to be able to see the internet.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

 

[MJ313]

You say extensive reading... not sure if you've hit mk.558's site: http://www.applefool.com/se30/

 

[louiscox]

Yes - I read this, thats how I know or think I know that its impossible to network a modern machine direct to a compact, it needs a step between like an early iMac that can see down and up the line.

This particular posting ( apple fool ) like many of the postings is made by someone thats very tech savvy, Im not. When it comes to things like twisted pairs and TCP my brain stops working.

Ideally I need to find someone thats managed to do this without resorting to an ethernet card, as Ive seen people using those but the cards are rarer than rocking horse shit.

 

[MJ313]

LOL!!

So... question... what is your ultimate goal here? Browsing the web will be.... a poor experience on the Classic . But maybe you want to use it as an email client, or do direct downloads of small files or whatever?

The second thing is, do you have the Daynastar adapter software? Here's a conversation that discusses it, if you need it. you would need a way to get it onto your Classic: https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/17016-drivers-for-daynascsi-adapter/

The next thing... can you get the networking information you need from your router? You will need the information because you will need to enter it manually into a control panel. You will need the Gateway (router IP), an IP address, the subnet, and the DNS information. If you have your OSX Mac handy, you can check Network Settings and copy them so as to type them into the Classic later (you will need to choose a different IP address though. Your router is probably using DHCP. Just pick a number somewhere far down in the range.

I had no luck with the default MacTCP and 7.5.5 trying to connect to the web. It was fine for AppleTalk, but I couldn't see the world until I installed Open Transport. It's just an alternative to MacTCP. Again, you would need a way to get it onto your Mac.

So.. make sure you have the right software and the right settings. If you can't get the software onto the Classic, you should get some help from someone who has an Intermediary machine, or get your own. I would recommend a PowerPC machine... one that has a built in floppy drive because floppy drives are useful when trying to get software (like Daynastar software) onto old Macs.

 

[sadmanonatrain]

In my experience newer network switches do not work with older network hardware. I think you would need an older 10Base T network switch to connect to the SCSI device.

 

[olePigeon]

Getting your OS 9 machine to talk to your Classic should be easy, you can use good ol' EtherTalk (AppleTalk over Ethernet.)  I have run into a bug where the older Mac running System 7 will error out when trying to connect to the Mac OS 9 machine, but it does work fine the other direction.

To network your Classic to your Modern Mac computer (or PC, UNIX, or Linux machine), it might be easier to just get yourself an FTP program for the Classic (such as Fetch), and then get something like  ftpd-enable  for your OS X machine.  ftpd-enable is just an Applescript with a menu bar that allows you to easily turn on or off FTP on your 10.7+ Mac.  I think in 10.6 or earlier, it's just a check box in the Sharing preferences.  It's since disappeared.

That's how I network my IIci and MacBook Pro.

 

[feeef]

Hi louiscox,

I have recently managed to setup an appleshare server between 10.9 and 7.6. It uses a linux machine as a bridge but I use virtualbox for that so I have only 2 computers in this network.

I made a post here explaining everything I have done to make it work => https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/23381-appleshare-between-classic-and-mavericks-another-way/

This network solution is one way only. I can access my 10.9 folders from 7.6 but not the contrary. I use this setup almost everyday (I directly work on my 10.9 files from 7.6) and still had no problem.

 

[louiscox]

Yes - I guess the goal is ultimately to use the Classic to browse. Pointless? maybe - but then why restore a 1960s Triumph Boneville and not buy a brand new one with disc brakes and no oil leaks? Because its there I guess.

I think both the compact and the original iMac have been design classics, arguable the 1980s 512k being the purists ideal rather than my 1990s classic. Possibly the colour and the anniversary as well.

 

[louiscox]

LOL!!

So... question... what is your ultimate goal here? Browsing the web will be.... a poor experience on the Classic . But maybe you want to use it as an email client, or do direct downloads of small files or whatever?

The second thing is, do you have the Daynastar adapter software? Here's a conversation that discusses it, if you need it. you would need a way to get it onto your Classic: https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/17016-drivers-for-daynascsi-adapter/

The next thing... can you get the networking information you need from your router? You will need the information because you will need to enter it manually into a control panel. You will need the Gateway (router IP), an IP address, the subnet, and the DNS information. If you have your OSX Mac handy, you can check Network Settings and copy them so as to type them into the Classic later (you will need to choose a different IP address though. Your router is probably using DHCP. Just pick a number somewhere far down in the range.

I had no luck with the default MacTCP and 7.5.5 trying to connect to the web. It was fine for AppleTalk, but I couldn't see the world until I installed Open Transport. It's just an alternative to MacTCP. Again, you would need a way to get it onto your Mac.

So.. make sure you have the right software and the right settings. If you can't get the software onto the Classic, you should get some help from someone who has an Intermediary machine, or get your own. I would recommend a PowerPC machine... one that has a built in floppy drive because floppy drives are useful when trying to get software (like Daynastar software) onto old Macs.

Undoubtedly a poor experience - but thats half the fun. Im a creative in the design business - I have fond memories of some of the old software. A bit sad I know.

My Classic has had a large capacity drive fitted - replacing the 20Mb, its got Gbs. It has 4Mb of memory. I had all the Daynastar software on floppy. Im cannot remember if there is open transport or Mac TCP. I will check.

The confusing bit for me is this - I got a Netgear switch, assuming that as it handled 10BaseT as well as 100 and 1000 that would carry the signal fine. Now I have my doubts. 

The there is the issue of networking and having access to the internet - two entirely different things. Im not sure if the switch might give me access to the internet but not my other machines.

Im considering getting an iMac G3, which has like OS9 or something. This might enable networking at least.

 

[louiscox]

Hi louiscox,

I have recently managed to setup an appleshare server between 10.9 and 7.6. It uses a linux machine as a bridge but I use virtualbox for that so I have only 2 computers in this network.

I made a post here explaining everything I have done to make it work => https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/23381-appleshare-between-classic-and-mavericks-another-way/

This network solution is one way only. I can access my 10.9 folders from 7.6 but not the contrary. I use this setup almost everyday (I directly work on my 10.9 files from 7.6) and still had no problem.

Cool - you are obviously very tech savvy. I have never used a Linux machine. Im not quite sure from your description where the virtualbox sits. Is the virtual box like a machine thats emulated on the linux?

Why do you want to access 10.9 files on an older machine?

 

[louiscox]

Getting your OS 9 machine to talk to your Classic should be easy, you can use good ol' EtherTalk (AppleTalk over Ethernet.)  I have run into a bug where the older Mac running System 7 will error out when trying to connect to the Mac OS 9 machine, but it does work fine the other direction.

To network your Classic to your Modern Mac computer (or PC, UNIX, or Linux machine), it might be easier to just get yourself an FTP program for the Classic (such as Fetch), and then get something like  ftpd-enable  for your OS X machine.  ftpd-enable is just an Applescript with a menu bar that allows you to easily turn on or off FTP on your 10.7+ Mac.  I think in 10.6 or earlier, it's just a check box in the Sharing preferences.  It's since disappeared.

That's how I network my IIci and MacBook Pro.

Do you think that if I were to get say an iMac G3 that the Classic and iMac if plugged into a modern switch would just start talking to each other? And that also my modern Mac and the iMac might also see each other?

 

[louiscox]

In my experience newer network switches do not work with older network hardware. I think you would need an older 10Base T network switch to connect to the SCSI device.

The switch says it handles 10 / 100 and 1000. Im rapidly coming to the conclusion I need an iMac G3 to test all this...

 

[Paralel]

Switches say they do 10/100/1000, but they forget to mention that the switch most likely requires autonegotiation, which was a feature that was added much later than when most of these compact mac ethernet adapaters were made. The switch sends an autonegotiation request to the Mac, the Mac says "Duh" and doesn't respond, The switch tries a few more times, Mac still says "Duh", and the switch decides since the device didn't respond to autonegotiation it is obviously broken, not working correctly, or not compatible, and just ignores the Mac, all the while the Mac is thinking "When are we going to establish a link here?"

The only way around this is to get a switch that either allows for physical setting of the mode via a hardware switch (so, a pre-autonegotiation switch that required manual mode setting) [Note: Some modern switches will allow you to set the mode in software. 99% of the time this still will not work] or an old 10BaseT switch that only does 10BaseT so here is no need any any negotiation since the it only does one speed.

 

[sadmanonatrain]

I tried to connect my IIfx to the Internet via a Netgear 10/100 hub and it did not work. You will need an older hub.

 

[louiscox]

Switches say they do 10/100/1000, but they forget to mention that the switch most likely requires autonegotiation, which was a feature that was added much later than when most of these compact mac ethernet adapaters were made. The switch sends an autonegotiation request to the Mac, the Mac says "Duh" and doesn't respond, The switch tries a few more times, Mac still says "Duh", and the switch decides since the device didn't respond to autonegotiation it is obviously broken, not working correctly, or not compatible, and just ignores the Mac, all the while the Mac is thinking "When are we going to establish a link here?"

The only way around this is to get a switch that either allows for physical setting of the mode via a hardware switch (so, a pre-autonegotiation switch that required manual mode setting) [Note: Some modern switches will allow you to set the mode in software. 99% of the time this still will not work] or an old 10BaseT switch that only does 10BaseT so here is no need any any negotiation since the it only does one speed.

OK,

So if I wanted the Classic connect to the internet I could connect my ethernet cable thats the input on my existing switch into the 10BaseT old hub? - this would of course disconnect my modern mac from the internet. Probably not a long term solution.

Following on from this, if I bought an old iMac G3 could I connect both machines via a 10BaseTHub?

Also - could I stick a modern switch between the router and the 10BastT Hub, disconnect my iMac ( if I bought one ) and connect my modern Mac and the iMac via my new switch?

Im assuming the iMac would just connect to the internet relatively simply with a modern switch?

many thanks

Many thanks

 

[louiscox]

I tried to connect my IIfx to the Internet via a Netgear 10/100 hub and it did not work. You will need an older hub.

Yes - thats the impression Im getting...

 

[feeef]

Cool - you are obviously very tech savvy. I have never used a Linux machine. Im not quite sure from your description where the virtualbox sits. Is the virtual box like a machine thats emulated on the linux?

Why do you want to access 10.9 files on an older machine?

Virtualbox is a software that emulates the hardware of a computer within your mac. You can install a linux or windows operating system on it. I chose to install linux because it is free and can be very minimalist and use a few amount of RAM.

I need to access 10.9 from my older machine because I still use it to do some work (drawing work) and the hard drive on that mac is a bit small so I directly work on the mac pro hard drive from the old machine. Now you could ask why still working on an old mac while a mac pro can do everything faster ? Actually, It is not always the case. I have setup a powermac 9500 with a G4 700MHz processor, a lot of RAM and running system 7 on it is very fast. So when I do hand drawn animations, this computer is still the perfect machine to quickly sketch my drawings. I have both computers sitting next to each other on my desk and share the same files on the big hard drive.

 

[feeef]

Yes - thats the impression Im getting...

I have connected my LCIII through a Netgear GS105 switch and it works perfectly. Th LCIII has a PDS 10BaseT ethernet card and runs system 7.5

 

[olePigeon]

Do you think that if I were to get say an iMac G3 that the Classic and iMac if plugged into a modern switch would just start talking to each other? And that also my modern Mac and the iMac might also see each other?

Once AppleTalk is set to Ethernet and turned on, yes.  You'll have to go to Sharing Setup and then turn on File Sharing.  After File Sharing is turned on, you should see them in the Chooser when you select AppleShare.

By the way, I also have an older Netgear 10/100 switch (a GS108, 8 port version of the GS105), and it works great.  I've used it with both an Apple NuBUS ethernet card and a FastPath 4+ via MacIP.  If feeef has had good luck with his GS105, my bet for a compatible switch would be an older Netgear.  They're dirt cheap.  About $5 usually, if not cheaper.  You can often find stacks of them at a computer recycler.