MachTen

[lorddoomicus]

Has any one ever used MachTen? I never see any reference to it here?

I actually have the install disks ( more floppy's the MS office from the same era ) for 2.2, and several versions of PowerMach10 on CD.

Just Wondering.

- Derrik

 

[Dog Cow]

I read some old discussions on it on the Mac newsgroups, but this was over 10 years ago.

 

[tmtomh]

I used it a couple of times. Presents an authentic unix environment within OS 7/8, but it doesn't behave nicely - it runs as an app, meaning it can crash like any other app, and yet once you launch it you can't quit it without restarting your Mac. So in that sense it's sort of the worst of both worlds. If I wanted to play with *nix on old Mac hardware, I'd probably just load up an SE/30 with A/UX, or get an old 7300-9600 series PCI Power Mac powerful enough to run an old PPC distribution of Linux or BSD.

That's my $.02 anyway.

 

[porter]

It's built the wrong way up. A robust OS ontop of a fragile one. A/UX had a fragile one (Mac OS) ontop of a robust one (UNIX).

 

[Unknown_K]

I have an original manual binder for one version, but no disks.

 

[lorddoomicus]

I actually used it for UNIX classes and to learn UNIX in college. I ran it for for a few years before I got my first Sun box.

The 68K version ran very well. It was stable and provided a powerful UNIX environment. The C compiler and X server worked as they should. It was even pretty fast.

The PowerPC version was buggy, crash prone, and things just would not compile right ( if at all ).

- Derrik

 

[Dog Cow]

Here's a Usenet post of interest:

Path: gmdzi!unido!unidui!math.fu-berlin.de!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!hardiman
From: hardiman@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul V Hardiman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: MachTen
Message-ID: <11972@uwm.edu>
Date: 8 May 91 21:53:21 GMT
Sender: news@uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 61
Originator: hardiman@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

There has been some interest in the COMP.SYS.MAC.SYSTEM and COMP.OS.MACH
newsgroups about the MachTen implementation of Unix for the Macintosh.
I received information on the system from Tenon Intersystems, the company
that produces it.  I've summarized the information below.  For more
detailed information, contact:

Tenon Intersystems
1123 Chapala St.
Santa Barbara, CA  93101
(805) 963-6983

************************************************************************
I have no relationship with, nor am I a customer of, Tenon Microsystems.
************************************************************************

MachTen is an implementation of Berkeley 4.3 BSD Reno Unix based on 
Mach 2.5.  MachTen will run on any Mac from the Classic, LC, SE,
and up, provided the Mac has 2mb RAM and a 20mb hard disk.  80mb-100mb
hard disk is recommended.  The system doesn't require an MMU, but will
use it if one is installed.

MachTen stores all Unix data files in Mac form, so that Mac programs
and Unix programs can share data.  The MachTen environment allows all
Mac applications to run concurrently with Unix programs, providing
true Unix multitasking.

FEATURES

Communications:  MachTen supports communications over AppleTalk, Ethernet,
and serial lines.  It includes the full Berkeley TCP/IP suite.  It also
supports Internet routing, remote line printer access via lpr, UUCP, and 
Unix-to-Unix file exchanges via the Berkeley 'R' series.

Distributed File System:  MachTen includes an implementation of Sun's
Network File System (NFS), both client and server capabilities.

Software Development:  MachTen includes SCCS, a 'C' compiler, loader,
assembler, debugger, and Make.  A complete set of libraries is provided
that allows 'C' programs access to the Mac Toolbox.

AVAILABILITY

MachTen is supposed to ship in May, 1991.

PRICES

Kernel system software:       2-user license           $ 595
                             unlimited user license   $ 835

The kernel system includes some documentation in HyperCard, and some
printed.  Full printed documentation is optional at $ 175.

Development system software:  2-user license           $ 990
                             unlimited user license   $ 1230

The development system includes some documentation in HyperCard, and
some printed.  Full printed documentation is optional at $ 225.

Upgrade from kernel license to development license is $ 395.

There is no upgrade from 2-user license to unlimited user license.

 

[Bunsen]

Seems like it could be worth experimenting with:

Communications:  MachTen supports communications over AppleTalk, Ethernet,
and serial lines.  It includes the full Berkeley TCP/IP suite.  It also
supports Internet routing, remote line printer access via lpr, UUCP, and 
Unix-to-Unix file exchanges via the Berkeley 'R' series.

Distributed File System:  MachTen includes an implementation of Sun's
Network File System (NFS), both client and server capabilities.

Software Development:  MachTen includes SCCS, a 'C' compiler, loader,
assembler, debugger, and Make.  A complete set of libraries is provided
that allows 'C' programs access to the Mac Toolbox.

 

[Dog Cow]

There was also a "MacMach" as well, but I'll save that for another Usenet post.

 

[ClassicHasClass]

Discovered this thread. I'm actually an avid MachTen user: http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/machten/

It's basically OS X inside out: instead of OS 9 running as an app in Mach, it's Mach running as an app in OS 9. And the X11 server is outstanding.

 

[Bunsen]

Have you messed about with the 68k version at all?

 

[ClassicHasClass]

No. Tenon sold it up until a few months ago but I never got around to trying it and they appear to no longer offer it. They do sell the PowerMachTen CD still (unsupported, of course).

 

[CJ_Miller]

I got to try it for a few days. Problem is that even the latest version is permanently frozen to GCC2, so one can't update the environment very much. It's much easier to run Linux, Rhapsody, or Darwin on an old mac. I guess the appeal would be for those who need to have some kind of UNIX/X11 capabilities within MacOS 8-9 itself. I am not sure how, but Tenon promoted it as an excellent way to port *NIX programs to MacOS, somehow cross-compiling them to run natively? I don't quite get it. Not as cool as A/UX, but it's all we've got for 9.

Also, I remember reading that the 68k version did offer some basic form of protected memory, which is kind of cool.

 

[ClassicHasClass]

Yes, the 68K version offered protected memory. One of the sources of instability with Power MachTen is apps stomping on other apps (you can improve this by tweaking the stack size with -Xlstack and other tools, but not dynamically). For example, for my port of NCSA Mosaic to even run requires a huge amount of stack.

http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/machten/mosaic/

 

[tenox]

I'm running MachTen under BasiliskII, except the GCC suite doesn't work. Any of the as/cc1/gcc/cpp won't run. Everything works just fine.

 

[ClassicHasClass]

That's a pain. Why won't they run? What message do you get?

 

[tenox]

Any executable from /usr/mac68k/bin just says "Killed".

When ran under gdb I'm getting a bomb popup saying:

Sorry, a system error occurred.

"MachTen" unimplemented trap

[Restart]