• Updated 2023-07-12: Hello, Guest! Welcome back, and be sure to check out this follow-up post about our outage a week or so ago.

MacGUI Downloads gone

mmmlinux

Well-known member
Well... they don't need an excuse. They pay for the server.
as other people have mentioned there are alternatives for software preservation beyond paying for a server.

Maybe if someone were to kindly reach out, there might be a chance that they would upload the complete collection up to archive.org.
If server hosting is the issue, I wouldn’t see why that wouldn’t be reasonable.
based on the previous conversation here, I don't have as high as hopes as you do.


sorry if its cynical, but its what appears to be currently happening. From "closed permanently" to site actually shut down in 24 hours doesn't look good.
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
Let's just wait and see what happens, it could always be a temporarily outage, though it would be odd timing. All we can do is hope for the best.
 

paws

Well-known member
Nobody should be forced to be on the internet in any way. I hope the person who runs/ran that site is doing well and that everyone remembers to respect their position. But I think it goes to show that it's better for All Of Us that infrastructure isn't dependent on One Of Us, and that valuable information doesn't end up in silos.
 

cheesestraws

Well-known member
Nobody should be forced to be on the internet in any way. I hope the person who runs/ran that site is doing well and that everyone remembers to respect their position. But I think it goes to show that it's better for All Of Us that infrastructure isn't dependent on One Of Us, and that valuable information doesn't end up in silos.

This is all very well put.
 

Compgeke

Well-known member
In Dogcow's defense, bandwidth isn't free.

In zoomer language, I'm definitely inclined to just respond "skill issue" if bandwidth is an issue. I've got a much, much larger site data wise (~1TB compressed) that moves 4-8 terabytes a month, no data cap. If you haven't managed to get out of bandwidth cap'd hosting like it's still 2005 on hostgator, that's kind of on you imo.

I actively encourage people to backup everything just in case I one day walk outside and get mowed down by a bus. Single point of failure gatekept = super super easy to lose a lot of information when I quit paying the bills.
 

MrFahrenheit

Well-known member
In zoomer language, I'm definitely inclined to just respond "skill issue" if bandwidth is an issue. I've got a much, much larger site data wise (~1TB compressed) that moves 4-8 terabytes a month, no data cap. If you haven't managed to get out of bandwidth cap'd hosting like it's still 2005 on hostgator, that's kind of on you imo.

I actively encourage people to backup everything just in case I one day walk outside and get mowed down by a bus. Single point of failure gatekept = super super easy to lose a lot of information when I quit paying the bills.
Wait…
So you’re blaming MacGUI for taking their site down because “bandwidth is free”, but you also are blaming those who didn’t download the entire site because it was the “single point of failure gatekept”?

I agree with @paws and it’s really his decision whether he wants to host a site or not. It’s been online for what, 10+ years? In all that time people who found something useful didn’t re-upload it to other sites?

Wouldn’t that be on them?

Really this conversation makes me uncomfortable thinking about creating a site to host files and Mac install ISO images. I mean, if I die, is my family obligated to “keep the lights on for eternity”? If I lose interest, am I obligated to continue hosting a site and paying for domain name registration, certificates, hosting, etc?

Entitled much?
 

Compgeke

Well-known member
Wait…
So you’re blaming MacGUI for taking their site down because “bandwidth is free”, but you also are blaming those who didn’t download the entire site because it was the “single point of failure gatekept”?

No, more that it's not really a thing in this day and age like it once was. It's super super easy to find alternative hosting if what you're doing is actively bankrupting you.

I'm definitely not a fan of having single points of failure though. My stuff like fsck.technology have friends with access in case anything happens. Even this website would manage to stay running if someone like cory walked outside and fell into a sink hole. So much information gets lost over and over from issues where someone doesn't allow mirroring then just disappears.
 

Skate323k137

Well-known member
Really this conversation makes me uncomfortable thinking about creating a site to host files and Mac install ISO images. I mean, if I die, is my family obligated to “keep the lights on for eternity”? If I lose interest, am I obligated to continue hosting a site and paying for domain name registration, certificates, hosting, etc?
Nobody is dead here, and no, I don't think anyone would hold you or anyone to keeping a server up when you're not alive.

It's his server, sure, but removing it this way is undoubtedly going to cause some conversation. I can't call everyone who cares or voices an opinion about that entitled, when he could have preserved it all easily if that was his goal.
 

Daniël

Well-known member
It's his server, sure, but removing it this way is undoubtedly going to cause some conversation. I can't call everyone who cares or voices an opinion about that entitled, when he could have preserved it all easily if that was his goal.

Agreed. A courtesy "hand over" period for dedicated individuals or teams to have the time to go over what hasn't been preserved elsewhere should become a standard these days. We've lost enough data as it is, preventable losses from conscious decisions should be avoided.

Thankfully some former forums (non-vintage computing related) that I know have at least let this happen by having set specific dates for sunsetting the ability to post or otherwise add new content, before the actual shutdown itself. In between the end of new content, and the shutdown, dedicated teams had the time to properly archive the whole shebang to ensure valuable information isn't lost to the sands of time.

No one is entitled to that, for sure, but no one is entitled to other common courtesies, yet we generally do show these to others just because it's a good thing to do. The whole thing with the statement still comes across as super weird to me, and the whole thing with the $20 DVD set being incomplete and the abrupt end of the site altogether just leave me with a rather negative feeling.

Again, I don't want to come across as wanting to push one person to burden a load they couldn't bare themselves, but I do also hope for those people to reach out to the community for cooperative solutions. That did not happen here, communication was minimal, and it's all just confusing and sad.

To get to the meat and potatoes of the potential missing data, was there any index of what was hosted at MacGUI, which files were missing from earlier archives/the DVD set, etc.? It's, at least to me, completely unclear if any of the data lost is potentially available elsewhere (e.g. Mac Garden or Repo), if there's any data/software missing that is now gone forever unless someone has a copy locally, and what the share between those two is.
 

LaPorta

Well-known member
Look, this thing isn’t the Library of Congress paid for by taxes or something. There is no obligation for anyone to be the eternal warehouse of software for Macs. It would have been “nice” if they kept it up for people, but that’s just it: a nicety. In fact, I don’t follow the logic of the person for why they took it down…doesn’t make any sense to me. However, it’s their call. You aren’t paying them, and there is no contract or obligation to provide service to you.
 

MrFahrenheit

Well-known member
The site is back online as of right now (for me, anyways).

However, downloads are listed as “permanently closed” still.
 

pizzigri

Well-known member
Well, the whole point of preserving information is.... to preserve information. I imagine that the database was also built by people like you and me that willfully submitted maybe even a single piece of software that would otherwise be totally lost, so that it was preserved and available to all. IMHO, without wanting to start any flame or critique, to close up and prevent anybody else to share that piece of software may be a betrayal of trust on the part of the "good samaritan" that donated that software in the first place. My 2 cents.
 

rplacd

Well-known member
I always take some time once in a while to reflect on the ethics of collecting hardware when it butts up against the ethics of sharing online resources... we all have old machines that only get more rare, and it's incumbent on us to do our best steward them for future generations. When rare technical resources on the internet go offline, there's a real loss. I do think that it's an obligation to never hoard software, resources, etc.

On the other hand, for the same reason, we all deserve to say "I'm done with the hobby, I don't have the resources and the attention to care to keep online resources online indefinitely, and someone will do it better that I am!" That's as important.

It's complicated, seeing it from both sides doesn't help, but ultimately we want to do the most good for the most vintage machines possible.
 

Skate323k137

Well-known member
Well, the whole point of preserving information is.... to preserve information. I imagine that the database was also built by people like you and me that willfully submitted maybe even a single piece of software that would otherwise be totally lost, so that it was preserved and available to all. IMHO, without wanting to start any flame or critique, to close up and prevent anybody else to share that piece of software may be a betrayal of trust on the part of the "good samaritan" that donated that software in the first place. My 2 cents.
Yeah, this. Even the Apple II book I bought by him (which is a good book...) has the MacGUI logo on the spine. And it says "the vault" on the logo, which made me think preservation was important to him. I guess not.
 

LaPorta

Well-known member
Regrettably, in these things, you need a backup plan. You cannot simply rely on “the internet” to always be there.
 

joshc

Well-known member
Was that uploaded by the site owner?
No, the description on the page explains the source of the files. The files were made publicly available for mirroring elsewhere and are already mirrored at other sources, this is just another copy of that mirror.
 

LaPorta

Well-known member
No, the description on the page explains the source of the files. The files were made publicly available for mirroring elsewhere and are already mirrored at other sources, this is just another copy of that mirror.
Strong Work. At least now we have and can disseminate the files.

Edit: Wow, that only took eight minutes to download. What a breeze!
 
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