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Mac Plus Clicking

imagineer

Member
Hi guys

I picked up an old Mac Plus a few weeks ago.

I plugged it in, it made clicking sounds, no bong, no picture on screen.

Have installed a new pram battery and had a good look at the analogue board.

Nothing looks blown. Have read through classicmac2.pdf and it appears to be a power failure issue.

Anyone know how to test the flyback transformer? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

I'd love to get this old puppy running again. Anyone got any ideas out there?

Thanks!

 
Hi, have you tried adjusting the voltage regulator below the display height adjustment? If you find out it's the Flyback, let me know I might have a spare I just have to dig through a few boxes.

 

imagineer

Member
Hi HarrisonIII, yeah, tried that (R56), turned it full clockwise (viewed from outside of circuit board), no difference.

Do you know how it may be possible to ascertain if it is the Flyback? I've got a multimeter but don't know what's going on inside the Flyback or what to test for. I suspect I might be wasting my time going in for the major caps replacement program, my caps all look wholesome, no bulges, leaks or cracks.

Thanks for your time! :)

 

imagineer

Member
Harrison, I see you meant a different voltage adjustment, on the foil side of the power board, towards the screen.

Tried that, full - then full +, same clicking sound ( It clicks about 4.5 times a second and is more a flick, flick sort of sound.)

In his pdf "plus_analog" Lee says:-

The computer is protected against gross regulation failures that would lead to excessive supply voltages. Twelve ampere crowbar SCR Q8 turns on if there is a dangerous over-

voltage (on the order of 15%) on the +12V supply,indicating a regulator failure (or misad-

justment of R56). The resulting short circuit shuts everything down. Q8 is a 2N6394 in

some versions; the only difference is that it is rated at 50V instead of 100V. Both SCRs

will work fine.

After the crowbar has been activated, the power supply periodically tries to recover, emit-

ting a characteristic “whup-whup-whup” sound as long as the overvoltage problem per-

sists. To make sure that the problem is not caused by an improper setting of voltage

control R56, turn it to the most clockwise position (when viewed from the foil side of the

PCB) to minimize the output voltage setpoint. If the “whup-whup” sound is still heard, it

indicates a major problem elsewhere.
Assuming the "whup" sound Lee describes is what we have here, I have been unable to locate the Q8 on this Plus board, however, it seems to be doing it's job judging by this text. As I said, adjusting the R56 produced no new result. It appears the "elsewhere" is where I now have to look.

Any ideas where this "elsewhere" might be would be much appreciated!

 

tomlee59

Well-known member
It sounds as if you've done the straightforward, logical first checks, so it's time to peel back more layers of the onion ("when you've shed enough tears, you'll be done"). It's not a bad idea to check the flyback -- instructions for doing so are given in that same document. The common failure mode for a flyback, including that one, is a shorted turn, but primary-secondary shorts are not unheard of, either.

A shorted flyback also tends to kill the BU406 horizontal driver transistor (and sometimes the transistor and logic gate that drives it), so check it, too. Be particularly suspicious if there are signs of overheating on the heatsink/tab/circuit board.

The power supply has some common failure modes. A couple of the rectifiers have a somewhat high failure rate, with the failure often showing up as a short (or low resistance). Also check the filter capacitors for leakage (both electrical and chemical).

I would also freshen up the yoke connector solder joints (I always do this whenever I open up a compact Mac, whether or not it appears to need it), as well as disconnect-reconnect the other connectors a few times to clean up the contact interfaces.

Finally -- and you should of course do this first -- perform a careful visual inspection of both sides of the analog board (I know you said you had "a good look", but that means different things to different people). Executing this simple step is surprisingly effective at finding many problems.

Good luck!

 

imagineer

Member
Thanks Tom! I see I'm in good hands. Shame my little Mac plus isn't! I'll work through those suggestions. The board looks very wholesome though the pram battery leaked over the steel chassis. The C33 blew when I first plugged it in but I've renewed that along with it's neighbour. Now I have the "clicking" back and it's the onion to follow..... What grim masochism drives us to this activity?

 

tomlee59

Well-known member
Wow -- C33 blew? That's the first instance I can recall of that one going south. I'm sure you've already checked, but you're not powering up a 120V Mac with 240V, by any chance? The Plus does not have a universal switcher, so bad things will happen if it is supplied off of twice the mains voltage. :)

 

imagineer

Member
Yeah, that's what I thought at first, but it's an international 240 V board. I think the C33 blew because it was directly under the pram battery that leaked. The C37 (I think) next to it was of the same type and when I got it out it had a large crack in it. They were pretty easy to source. If I need another flyback do I need to source an international one?

 

tomlee59

Well-known member
All the circuitry downstream of the power supply is the same for 240V as for 120V versions, so you won't have to hunt down a special flyback (if that turns out to be the problem).

I'm still a bit concerned about the capacitors. They're well sealed and designed to take full line voltage (and then some), so leakage from the battery should not have caused them to blow up. A serious overvoltage may have killed the caps, which bodes ill for the fate of many other components. Check the usual suspects you can (all semiconductors in the power supply, electrolytic caps). And if you happen to own an oscilloscope, drop a probe onto the 5V and 12V supply lines. The waveform you see (both in general shape and specific voltage swing) would be highly revealing.

 

imagineer

Member
Tom, I'm more an automotive solderer than electronic, can I test the caps in place on the board? (pardon my ignorance, I've always loved my macs but usually been in front of the keyboard rather than behind it!) What am I looking for with the caps, nil readings across the terminals in both directions?

 

tomlee59

Well-known member
In general, it's hard to perform reliable in-circuit testing of caps with ordinary instruments (eg, the trusty multimeter) because so many other circuit elements could present sneak current paths and confound the measurement. Fortunately, many failures are sufficiently dramatic that you can sometimes identify failed caps with a visual inspection. Aluminum electrolytics will exhibit bulging and/or outright leakage of electrolyte, for example. Tantalum caps rarely exhibit any visible signs of failure (or they explode with a bang), but almost always fail in the shorted state (easily detected with a standard ohmmeter). A joke among techs is that a shorted tantalum cap is a room-temperature superconductor.

Non-electrolytics can fail either open or shorted/leaky. Shorts are easy to find, opens not so much. A high-impedance analog ohmmeter turns out to be a better choice than most digital multimeters as a substitute for a capacitor tester. With the capacitor out of circuit and your ohmmeter set to its highest-resistance setting (megohms or greater), test for continuity (and verify lack of same), and then reverse the ohmmeter leads as fast as you can. The meter will initially indicate a low resistance, and then should climb toward infinity as the capacitor charges.

For small-value caps, you aren't going to be able to flip the leads fast enough. Without a capacitance tester, there's no easy way to test such caps other than indirectly, through substitution with a known-good one. However, in your case, an open-circuited small-value cap is not particularly likely to cause the symptoms you describe, so devising a test for this situation isn't too high on your priority list. After doing a careful visual inspection and reheating solder joints of the usual suspects, I'd test all of the semiconductors (starting with the high-power ones), and then the switching-supply transformer and flyback. These usually fail in a sufficiently dramatic way that a standard multimeter will reveal it. As with capacitors, it may be necessary to isolate the component under test to avoid false readings caused by other parts of the circuit connected to the device under test.

Another test you can do, and should do if you haven't already, is to see if the power supply is at least ok up to the switcher. You need to exercise caution, however, because the test requires you to probe a hot circuit. Connect your voltmeter across the main filter capacitors (C35/C36) or across the bleeder resistor (R41). For models made for the US market, the voltage will be around 160-170V. If you measure a significantly different voltage, suspect a problem in that area of the circuit. Conversely, if the voltage is ok up to that point, you can move on to checking other circuit bits.

 

iMac600

Well-known member
Possible simple fix here, but this issue was resolved on my machine by resoldering the legs of the Flyback Transformer. The joints looked fine, but clearly one of them had a hairline fracture. Machine's worked fine ever since.

 

imagineer

Member
I went to show a knowledgeable friend the symptoms of the Mac Plus clicking and on switching it on it gave the start beep, no clicking, no screen (I didn't have anything in the Floppy Drive - don't know if it needs an operating system to fire the screen, having no hard drive). After taking the logic board out to free up a jammed floppy drive, reassembling and starting, the clicking is back. A few taps on the side of the power board and I get the clicks AND the start beep! I've still had no chance to test or resolder anything. Does this rule anything out, or in? It seems like there's something loose enough to be that easily disturbed. Is there a logical place to start re-soldering in the light of that strange behaviour?

 

imagineer

Member
Lightly tapping on the first transformer in the line after the power switch (LF1?), and the 4 electrolytic caps C38 et al, the fuse blew upon repowering up. Before that the Plus sometimes just clicked, sometimes gave the start beep then clicked. Does any of this make sense to anyone out there?

 

jsarchibald

Well-known member
I can't help with the electronics, but with the boot disk, even if there is no disk in the drive, it will boot up to the grey screen and have a flashing icon requiring a boot disk. This should come up no matter what on a Plus, if the machine is healthy.

 

tomlee59

Well-known member
Hate to sound like a broken record, but you have a bad connection or three. It's really that simple. You seem to want to believe it's something else, but everything you've described is consistent with that hypothesis, and pretty inconsistent with any other likely scenario.

 

imagineer

Member
Well that's good news, I've just bought the solder sucker to help refresh some of those usual suspect joints. I had this idea that the sounding of the start beep (a new experience for the Plus and I) might make it possible to rule out some of the scarier possibilities - like maybe shorted turns on the flyback, blown windings or semiconductors. My ignorance of electronic circuitry is still pretty profound.

 

tomlee59

Well-known member
You can probably skip the solder-sucking step and go straight to resoldering (with fresh solder). There aren't that many joints, so you can refresh all of the usual suspects in a short time. Just work carefully, and inspect along the way, to make sure that you have not created solder bridges. If you do, that sucker will come in handy to clean things up.

Also, do not overlook the connectors. The yoke connector is notorious, but it's also advisable to clean the terminals of the other connectors, too. These simple steps have fixed a great many otherwise dead Macs. I hope you are as lucky!

 
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