3lectr1cPPC
Well-known member
Just swapped to the second EMM and it does the SAME THING! What on earth???
Kinda bummed about that.
Kinda bummed about that.
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Updated 2023-07-12: Hello, Guest! Welcome back, and be sure to check out this follow-up post about our outage a week or so ago.
jmacz journey
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3lectr1cPPC
Well-known member
I got some of those but not all. It has to be making contact though because the pack WORKS, the computer just doesn’t think it’s there… such a strange failure. Is it even EMM related if both my EMMs do the same thing?
jmacz
Well-known member
That suggests the pack itself is working fine.
I had the same problem above with one of my EMM boards and unfortunately it was the one with a faulty Apple chip. With it, I couldn't get any of the software packages to detect the battery and it meant the battery was not communicating properly with laptop. In my particular case, one of the pins (28) was shorted to ground as I mentioned in this thread:
PowerBook 540c Restoration Project
Well if anyone would like to send me a working battery for free, I'd be happy to test that out ;) Fair enough :D maybe if I had more than one… I guess I can test it myself though. I have a power supply that’s just gone POP yesterday, has a short somewhere that’s not the MOSFET or the...
68kmla.org
But yours might be a different issue that's solvable?
I'm not sure I see how sitting without cells would impact the EMM chip.
It's still possible that the pins aren't contacting the laptop properly due the fit with the case. Since you tried in two different laptops, I don't think it's the laptop side, but could still be the pads on the battery itself. You might want to check continuity between the connector pads on the outside of the battery and the actual contact points on the EMM board. Make sure you're careful when you do this because the 16V solder point on the EMM board is awfully close to the data and other inputs, and I was super paranoid about shorting those even for a split second and frying something.
The outer external pads are + and -, and the inner ones are the two comm lines with the laptop. Hopefully that's the issue or the case fitment is the issue.
jmacz
Well-known member
Hmm, I would check the connections.. just double check the two inner pads are connected properly and have continuity with the board like I mentioned. Even with swapping the EMM boards, I think you're still using the same case and external connector pads?
3lectr1cPPC
Well-known member
The external connector pads are part of the EMM ribbon, so they were different between the two EMM boards.
The fact that your apple chip was bad and had the same issue gets me worried… what I just don’t get is that both these EMMs worked fine in around August 2021 when I bought my PB 540.
I’ll also bet that they won’t charge either in this state so once the pack voltage drops, I’ll be screwed.
The fact that your apple chip was bad and had the same issue gets me worried… what I just don’t get is that both these EMMs worked fine in around August 2021 when I bought my PB 540.
I’ll also bet that they won’t charge either in this state so once the pack voltage drops, I’ll be screwed.
jmacz
Well-known member
Oh, so you didn't desolder the ribbon then? You just soldered the new battery pack onto the +/- points on the ribbon?
I had the palm rest removed from the laptop when I was testing (like I mentioned with alligator clips to rule out contact issues and ensured continuity from the laptop-side connectors all the way to the board).
For the battery packs, it came with a Tamiya-style standard RC industry connector and I still had old RC chargers lying around so that's one possibility if you have access to one (to recharge the pack itself). But yes, I don't think the battery will charge without the EMM working.
I had the palm rest removed from the laptop when I was testing (like I mentioned with alligator clips to rule out contact issues and ensured continuity from the laptop-side connectors all the way to the board).
For the battery packs, it came with a Tamiya-style standard RC industry connector and I still had old RC chargers lying around so that's one possibility if you have access to one (to recharge the pack itself). But yes, I don't think the battery will charge without the EMM working.
3lectr1cPPC
Well-known member
I did notice a small tear on the EMM I don’t have hooked up right now (the first one I tried) but it’s partial and there’s still good continuity.
Which pin is pin 28?
The top leftmost pin on the big EMM chip is continuous with the battery negative. Actually, it is on both EMM boards.
Which pin is pin 28?
The top leftmost pin on the big EMM chip is continuous with the battery negative. Actually, it is on both EMM boards.
jmacz
Well-known member
This is the image I had in the other thread:
It may not be the same issue you have as I would be very surprised if this is a common fault on these chips. Pin 14 is supposed to be connected to ground. But on my faulty chip, pin 28 is very low resistance to pin 14 (12 ohms or so). On a valid chip, it should be infinite resistance.
Regarding the data lines, if there's good connectivity with those pads in the upper right pads in the picture above with the outside connector pads, then that's not the problem.
It may not be the same issue you have as I would be very surprised if this is a common fault on these chips. Pin 14 is supposed to be connected to ground. But on my faulty chip, pin 28 is very low resistance to pin 14 (12 ohms or so). On a valid chip, it should be infinite resistance.
Regarding the data lines, if there's good connectivity with those pads in the upper right pads in the picture above with the outside connector pads, then that's not the problem.
3lectr1cPPC
Well-known member
Pin 14 is the one that goes to ground then - I'm good. I tested and no other pins beeped when I checked for connection with Battery negative, only 14. Relieved that it doesn't seem to be that at least, but now I'm wondering what other failure could produce something like this. I guess the next step is to take my 540c base apart for the first time and make 100% sure that it isn't a connection issue, even though I just really feel like it shouldn't be...
I'll also double check what resistance I get between 14 and 28 tomorrow.
Do you want to move this discussion into the 540c restoration thread instead of here?
I'll also double check what resistance I get between 14 and 28 tomorrow.
Do you want to move this discussion into the 540c restoration thread instead of here?
jmacz
Well-known member
Ok sounds good.
Note that it's still very possible something else is wrong on the EMM board, not the chip. On mine, it was the chip, but there could be any number of things not right on the board itself that prevents the chip from communicating with the laptop. As long as it's not the chip, everything else should be fixable if you can figure out where the fault is.
But yeah, I would check connectivity for the path from the connectors inside the laptop all the way to the pads under the GX B-V0 in the picture above. You can tape the battery in the battery bay while the palm rests are out just to hold the battery there against the connectors. Keep in mind that each of the connectors inside the battery bay (laptop side) are individual springs for each pad. The design is to provide individual tolerance for contact, but the flip is also true that one or more of them might not get good connection even though others are touching fine. Yes, you tried multiple laptops so it's unlikely, but still worth checking. Also check if you have any oxidation on those laptop side connectors. I cleaned mine with deoxit just in case. If the connectivity is good all the way through, then there could still be something on the board itself on the path to the EMM chip that could not be right. Even with the faulty memory chip, my EMM chip was able to communicate with the laptop, so I think first thing is to debug why it cannot communicate with the laptop.
I found of the various software packages, EMMpathy was the best for debugging... inside EMMpathy, use the Smart Probe (File->Open Smart Probe) and it gives you real time feedback on battery detection, and once connected, what the EMM is doing. Hopefully it provides some insight as you're mucking around with the connections, pushing the battery against the connectors with the palm rests off, etc.
You can also probe to see if you're getting any voltage to the EMM chip itself. I don't remember which pin was Vcc but you could check all of them, perhaps pin 1 with the dot just to see if you have a power problem somewhere.
Note that it's still very possible something else is wrong on the EMM board, not the chip. On mine, it was the chip, but there could be any number of things not right on the board itself that prevents the chip from communicating with the laptop. As long as it's not the chip, everything else should be fixable if you can figure out where the fault is.
But yeah, I would check connectivity for the path from the connectors inside the laptop all the way to the pads under the GX B-V0 in the picture above. You can tape the battery in the battery bay while the palm rests are out just to hold the battery there against the connectors. Keep in mind that each of the connectors inside the battery bay (laptop side) are individual springs for each pad. The design is to provide individual tolerance for contact, but the flip is also true that one or more of them might not get good connection even though others are touching fine. Yes, you tried multiple laptops so it's unlikely, but still worth checking. Also check if you have any oxidation on those laptop side connectors. I cleaned mine with deoxit just in case. If the connectivity is good all the way through, then there could still be something on the board itself on the path to the EMM chip that could not be right. Even with the faulty memory chip, my EMM chip was able to communicate with the laptop, so I think first thing is to debug why it cannot communicate with the laptop.
I found of the various software packages, EMMpathy was the best for debugging... inside EMMpathy, use the Smart Probe (File->Open Smart Probe) and it gives you real time feedback on battery detection, and once connected, what the EMM is doing. Hopefully it provides some insight as you're mucking around with the connections, pushing the battery against the connectors with the palm rests off, etc.
You can also probe to see if you're getting any voltage to the EMM chip itself. I don't remember which pin was Vcc but you could check all of them, perhaps pin 1 with the dot just to see if you have a power problem somewhere.
3lectr1cPPC
Well-known member
Will go through this process tomorrow with taking the laptop apart.
Worth noting the following for now though:
Here's a detailed description of the battery's condition pre-rebuild as I remember it.
1. Upon receiving my Grayscale 540, I pulled both batteries and neither showed visible leaking.
2. I saw that they were both detected by the 540.
3. I measured pack voltage on both and I think they were in the 6-7v range, so pretty dead but not totally dead.
4. I put both batteries into my 540c, as it was set up for file transfer, and got a copy of Apple's Intelligent Battery Recondition tool, LIND's tool, and EMMpathy. This was when I was still attempting to see if I could get the old cells working.
5. I remember EMMpathy ran, said it was "waking up the EMM" and went through normal process just fine. LIND's tool also ran. I forget which is which, but memory errors were found by one or both of the tools. They were able to successfully repair said errors in both packs and both tested perfect by the end of it.
6. A couple weeks later, I opened both packs up to remove the cells and store the EMM modules and ribbon cables away from where battery leakage could get to them. Multiple cells were leaking in both packs but neither EMM experienced any corrosion. The positive line on one of the two did experience slight corrosion on the ribbon, near where it connected to the cells itself (not the contacts).
Since late 2021 when I did this all, the EMMs and other parts have been stored without power.
I also did try tonight running the Smart Probe in EMMpathy and it also failed to detect a battery at all.
Worth noting the following for now though:
Here's a detailed description of the battery's condition pre-rebuild as I remember it.
1. Upon receiving my Grayscale 540, I pulled both batteries and neither showed visible leaking.
2. I saw that they were both detected by the 540.
3. I measured pack voltage on both and I think they were in the 6-7v range, so pretty dead but not totally dead.
4. I put both batteries into my 540c, as it was set up for file transfer, and got a copy of Apple's Intelligent Battery Recondition tool, LIND's tool, and EMMpathy. This was when I was still attempting to see if I could get the old cells working.
5. I remember EMMpathy ran, said it was "waking up the EMM" and went through normal process just fine. LIND's tool also ran. I forget which is which, but memory errors were found by one or both of the tools. They were able to successfully repair said errors in both packs and both tested perfect by the end of it.
6. A couple weeks later, I opened both packs up to remove the cells and store the EMM modules and ribbon cables away from where battery leakage could get to them. Multiple cells were leaking in both packs but neither EMM experienced any corrosion. The positive line on one of the two did experience slight corrosion on the ribbon, near where it connected to the cells itself (not the contacts).
Since late 2021 when I did this all, the EMMs and other parts have been stored without power.
I also did try tonight running the Smart Probe in EMMpathy and it also failed to detect a battery at all.
jmacz
Well-known member
Did you attach the new battery pack after this corrosion point on the ribbon or is the corrosion between the battery and the EMM board?
Yeah, smart probe won't help it find the battery, but it's good to have it up when you're inserting/removing the battery to see if Smart Probe sees anything at all even for a split second.
3lectr1cPPC
Well-known member
I tried attaching to the EMM directly on that one but it seemed to precarious and like it wouldn’t fit right. It’s possible that might be a separate issue on that specific EMM but that’s the second one I tried, and plus it worked too regardless (also ran the laptop) and gave identical symptoms to the first EMM/ribbon I tried.
Will look again with smart probe tomorrow. Interesting enough, with it running the battery reserve message didn’t show up and it stayed on.
I’m going to sleep now, will try some more stuff tomorrow evening.
Will look again with smart probe tomorrow. Interesting enough, with it running the battery reserve message didn’t show up and it stayed on.
I’m going to sleep now, will try some more stuff tomorrow evening.
3lectr1cPPC
Well-known member
Definitely not a contact issue. That cap visible does appear to be starting to leak though so I should probably go replace that. Is it the cause behind this issue? Don’t think so but it’s a step to take nonetheless.
jmacz
Well-known member
That's the one cap on the main board, and someone I think mentioned to me that it's associated with the battery (I thought it was you, but I guess it wasn't). I guess it's possible but don't know.
3lectr1cPPC
Well-known member
I believe it’s associated with the battery but I’m not positive. I will say I’ve never heard someone say it was preventing one from starting up (like the duos) so I don’t think it’s part of the main DC/DC circuit.
My guess is that it was for battery charge.
My guess is that it was for battery charge.
jmacz
Well-known member
This 'smart' battery is really annoying
I was pulling my hair out trying to figure things out with the battery I failed on. I wish it was simpler like the 5300 where the battery just primarily has cells. Then again, in that case I'd be pulling my hair out due to the charger or the laptop I guess.
3lectr1cPPC
Well-known member
Next thing I’m going to do is to just assemble the second pack with the second cell pack I ordered and see what happens. Perhaps by some dark magic it was the battery pack all along and not the EMM, although I couldn’t imagine why. I’m just grasping at straws now.
