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JLCPCB seems too good to be true

ThisDoesNotCompute

Active member
I didn't mean to prompt a debate about the morality of it all, I was just wondering how it's possible for them to charge so little.
Small, plain PCBs are cheap through them but once you get into bigger boards and SMD assembly the costs go up dramatically. Definitely still cheaper than going with a company based in the US, but well out of "that's crazy cheap" territory.
 

GRudolf94

Well-known member
Small, plain PCBs are cheap through them but once you get into bigger boards and SMD assembly the costs go up dramatically. Definitely still cheaper than going with a company based in the US, but well out of "that's crazy cheap" territory.
At $10-15 per (small) assembled 4-layer board with quite a few components... I don't think that's dramatically costlier. In fact I think it's crazy cheap, considering an average chinese contract manufacturer would charge $7 for something that costs $12 in JLC prototype quantity.
 

MrFahrenheit

Well-known member
@bigmessowires Also beware, you may have customs duties on top of the base cost. I don't know how it's handled in the US, but over here in continental Europe even though for the 'small stuff' they usually don't bother, for larger orders (NuBusFPGA, IIsiFPGA, ...) I did get the bills eventually...
The United States has a regulation called “section 321” or “Deminimus” which allows goods to enter the US duty and tax-free from outside the US, valued Upto $800, without brokerage or special customs entry.

Goods under the declared amount enter the US and are delivered to residents duty and tax free, expeditiously.
 

Skate323k137

Well-known member
What I'm sad about is that they clamped down on panalisation. I used to order loads of tiny boards on a single 100x100 board and it basically cost the same as one board. Now they try to charge me loads of engineering time if I do that.
Is there still the "panel by PCB" and "Panel by Customer" options? I admittedly never compared the pricing; are they charging a bunch for engineering regardless now?
 

nickpunt

Well-known member
FWIW I think @beachycove is spot on re:dumping. There's big geopolitical shifts happening with China's increasing willingness to throw their weight around to get what they want and retain their power. Dumping like this is a very cheap strategy to undermine adversaries without them realizing it, degrading core capacities like electronics manufacturing. This puts China in a better position for a lot of possible futures (we're only becoming more reliant on electronics, and sustained manufacturing advantages win wars) and is a great example of the type of advantage a centralized authoritarian gov't can press if they know what they're doing and play the long game.

State sponsorship means they can be patient and run this kind of service at a loss for longer than commercial operators can stay in business. It's basically turning your adversaries strengths (free market efficiencies) into weaknesses (strategic dependence). In the business world offering below-cost options to scoop up market share happens quite a bit, and a lot of the really outsized venture capital investments are doing so to run this strategy (e.g. Uber). This would all be very well known to China as this is common knowledge in technocratic circles.
 
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twelvetone12

Well-known member
We tried JLCPCB for some projects in my company but after a bit the quality was just not there, so we went back to other vendors. Unfortunately we had some bad experiences with manufacturers here in CH or in the EU, it seems they are uninterested in a small company like us (with relatively small volumes) and, apart from the high costs, we often had sloppy or outright bad service. Now we basically use PCBWay for almost everything.
 

Phipli

Well-known member
I'm only a hobbyist, but I've had hundreds of not thousands of boards made by JLC, of a couple-o-three of dozen designs, and haven't had any issues at all yet. The only time I had trouble I was prewarned, and it has actually being ok anyway. I put castellations on a postage stamp sized board and they warned me they couldn't hold them to mill them, so would have to score them only, so I might lose the copper from some. They've all been fine so far. Needed a little hand fettling to tidy up, but I have a pile of about 50. If I did it again I would extend the board and make a little jig to mill them myself. But I'm not producing on scale.

bit the quality was just not there,
What issues did you experience? How long ago was it?
 

twelvetone12

Well-known member
It was around a year and a half ago or so, we did quite a bit of boards with them ok, then the next few batches had some problems, like solder mask burning away when reflowing (!), I can ask our guy responsible more details, but since we wanted to use these in production for products we sell we went back to pcbway.
 

Phipli

Well-known member
It was around a year and a half ago or so, we did quite a bit of boards with them ok, then the next few batches had some problems, like solder mask burning away when reflowing (!), I can ask our guy responsible more details, but since we wanted to use these in production for products we sell we went back to pcbway.
Hum, actually, the last board I soldered up the soldermask detached a little too easily when I was hand soldering a SOIC chip in one small area. Way too easily as in, I've done a lot of soldering and only ever seen that happen after repeated rework, and abrasion. I figured there was some dirt on the board before they soldermasked it. Interesting. I haven't been making as much lately - I wonder if one of their several factories has a quality issue (most boards are ok, but some batches aren't great).

I've only used PCBWay once. I used to use Seeed Studio way back. Don't think I've used anyone else.
 
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twelvetone12

Well-known member
Yup I think it is the same problem we had - on some boards. For internal use it is ok, but we cannot risk giving one to a consumer.
 

GRudolf94

Well-known member
JLC mask isn't the greatest when it comes to temperature resistance. For abrasion it's pretty good. They used to make biiig oopsies, and their boards were generally "crap, but cheap enough I don't care" until 2.5y ago or so. They actually bungled a few designs of mine pretty bad, smooshing together length-matching serpentines etc. Then something happened and quality increased a lot.
 

herd

Well-known member
...getting massive subsidies...

I can get a little box from china with an electronic gadget inside for about half what I would pay to mail the same empty box to the next town over. China is encouraging small business with their policies, particularly any sort of manufacturing.

Here in the usa we shut down all the small businesses and printed 7 TRILLION $ (did you feel uncle sam's hand in your pocket when he removed $20,000?) that mostly went to the mega-monopolies.
 

beachycove

Well-known member
I’ve been thinking about my comments above, and feel I ought on reflection to say that while I would prefer that the source was closer to home, I still appreciate those zillions of Chinese workers and companies making such stuff. I don’t like their government much, but that’s a separate matter.

Another of my hobbies is vintage (1950s-70s) outboards. Were it not for the Chinese supplying replacement parts for my old OMC products (e.g., electrical coils to generate current on the magneto, the originals having universally rotted out), I doubt any parts would be available, and the motors would all be dead as dodos. Domestic manufacturers just don’t bother with such trifles. The Chinese, on the other hand, seem to spot the niche interests of 62-year-old fogies like me, and then, by jingo, they magically fill them! Since the market can’t be very big, it is astonishing that the parts exist at all. As I write, I am looking out the window at a boat in the cove with a 1971 9.5hp Evinrude on it. The motor cost me something like $50 in a yard sale, non-working, but it now runs perfectly courtesy of Cheap Chinese Manufacturing, Inc., my own wits, YouTube, and a weeks’ evenings spent with very greasy hands. There’s something good in this, quite apart from the $2.5k+ saved on a modern outboard motor. (Psst: they’re nearly all Japanese these days, though all my old gals were all made in Peterborough, Ontario.)

To add a touch of further nuance, it seems to me that we’ve ourselves averted, avoided and aborted so many potential fellow-citizens over the past 50 years that I doubt that we could any longer host a full-scale manufacturing economy, such as existed a generation ago, even if we wanted one. We just no longer have the social capital. We in Canada can no longer staff even our hospitals, for goodness’ sake, and those people are nicely remunerated, socially respected, professionally promoted, educationally cosseted, and all the rest. The state we’re in is part of a bigger systematic distortion, the problems with it are more than economic, and the trouble we are in is by no means all someone else’s fault. I think there are ultimately meaning-of-life, quasi-religious issues at stake in it all, and not just questions of economics in the narrow sense. We are so busy being free all over the place that we no longer understand what it means to be human.

So enjoy yer widgets for the present, but don’t forget to propagate!
 

demik

Well-known member
JLC mask isn't the greatest when it comes to temperature resistance. For abrasion it's pretty good. They used to make biiig oopsies, and their boards were generally "crap, but cheap enough I don't care" until 2.5y ago or so. They actually bungled a few designs of mine pretty bad, smooshing together length-matching serpentines etc. Then something happened and quality increased a lot.

Had the same issue in some of the rums 2-3 years ago, copper was going off etc. No such thing within the last year
 

bigmessowires

Well-known member
I work a lot with Elecrow, another company that's similar to JLCPCB, and they've been making a big push on their PCB assembly service recently. Today I received an announcement saying they're waiving the PCBA assembly/soldering fees for orders of 10 pieces of fewer. This is what we suspected JLCPCB is doing as well: intentionally taking a loss for small orders, in hopes of attracting large orders later. Elecrow says this is a limited time offer, but as long as they have to compete with JLCPCB I suspect it will continue.

This is a curious business strategy... in most markets, bulk discounts mean that products and services are cheaper per unit when you buy more of them. These PCBA vendors are creating a market where the unit price increases as you buy more. That will attract lots of little orders, but I think it may frustrate larger customers. Or else large customers will demand the same pricing as smaller ones, or they'll split up their larger orders into multiple small orders.
 

Melkhior

Well-known member
An 'issue' with JLCPCB is also availability and cost of parts - those can vary wildly.

The original NuBusFPGA used fairly expensive Molex 10-89-7642 for the board-to-board connection (7.6€ each at mouser.fr right now) and was made by SeeedStudio - so, very expensive overall. For the revised and much cheaper V1.2 made at JLCPCB, I switched to the less expensive Amphenol 77313-824-64LF (2.54€). They didn't have them in stock (or any 'locally sourced' replacement I was confident would work), so I 'global sourced' them at a total cost of $32.27 for 10 delivered to their warehouse ready for assembly. Convenient! For the IIsiFPGA, JLCPCB now had them listed, so I could pre-order them and got 10 delivered to their warehouse for assembly at a total cost of $20.36. Pretty nice price, very convenient service. You just take a lot of delays, as after ordering the parts they need to confirm the price, then you validate the order, then they order the parts and then you wait for the parts to be delivered, and then you can order the PCB + assembly service...

So looking at doing yet another project with those connectors... current estimated price at JLCPCB for those 77313-824-64LF is $5.5901 !?! It seems a viable replacement appeared in the price list from XKB Connectivity, maybe there's a link...
 
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