IIe card vs Full II for learning assembly?

[senrew]

I've decided I want to teach myself 6502 assembly. I've also decided I want to learn it on an Apple II vs any of the other home micros of the time. What I haven't decided is which II I would like to pick up for this purpose. I've narrowed my choices down to either a IIc+, a Platinum IIe, or a IIe card hosted by a quadra 605.

I found a tech doc on the Apple site listing the differences between the card and a real II in terms of hardware differences when it comes to programming for the machines, but it was geared more towards the peripherals. What I would like to know is, are there any differences when it comes to the use of assembly for the 65c02 in the full apple IIs I mentioned and the chip on the IIe card? As far as I remember, the IIe card has a real 65c02 on it along with the rest of the consolidated circuitry.

So, will I be ok learning on either set of hardware, or should I stick to the full machines?

 

[david__schmidt]

I've decided I want to teach myself 6502 assembly. I've also decided I want to learn it on an Apple II vs any of the other home micros of the time.

In terms of assembly language, the Apple II family has arguably the most approachable built-in tools for the assembly programmer. It's a good choice for that.

I've narrowed my choices down to either a IIc+,

The IIc+ is nice because it's almost all-in-one; and doesn't have a silly brick-on-a-rope power supply like the IIc does. The downside is that it has a 3-1/2" disk drive, which almost none of the regular 8-bit Apple software came on. And they can be a little hard to come by.

a Platinum IIe,

A very sensible choice - fairly plentiful, few socketed chips to go bad, plentiful floppy drives, boundless expansion options.

or a IIe card hosted by a quadra 605.

In this case, you have two computers to care for. I think you might find it more of a pain to care for than the single-purpose computer or emulator. Which brings me to an option you didn't mention you've considered: an emulator. You can use Virtual ][ or AppleWin depending on your modern operating system and get the full programmability of the Apple II line, with the keyboard and text editor you already know, and cut-and-paste convenience. You might consider starting there and moving up to real hardware when it becomes available.

I found a tech doc on the Apple site listing the differences between the card and a real II in terms of hardware differences when it comes to programming for the machines, but it was geared more towards the peripherals. What I would like to know is, are there any differences when it comes to the use of assembly for the 65c02 in the full apple IIs I mentioned and the chip on the IIe card? As far as I remember, the IIe card has a real 65c02 on it along with the rest of the consolidated circuitry.

No. There are a few different instructions here and there, but nothing of significance. All the books on general 6502 programming will be perfectly suitable for any 6502 derivative machine.

 

[Gorgonops]

Just to note, there are *many* web resources out there for learning 6502 assembly, including a number of sites which offer Java (or other) 6502 assemblers/debuggers and a simple virtual machine environment for testing your code on. 6502.org, under the "Development Tools" heading:

http://www.6502.org/tools/

Has a page of emulators and simulators that are very useful for getting started. These two in particular:

http://www.6502asm.com/

and:

http://e-tradition.net/bytes/6502/

Were very useful in teaching me enough 6502 assembly to write a debugging ROM to aid repairing my Commodore PET. (It's probably worth noting that Commodore machines are another good choice for 6502 programming. They still have a very active community working on them and are very well documented for the most part. There are several good cross-assemblers that have specific support for compiling commodore-compatible binary files as well.)

 

[ClassicHasClass]

As the semi-maintainer for xa, one such crossassembler, I concur

6502 assembly is very useful to learn, not just because it was a common architecture and there are still derivatives in use, but also because it helps you value your registers in a constrained environment. ARM assembly was at least initially "inspired" by 6502, although modern ARM is not really much like it anymore.

 

[theos911]

I decided to dive into apple ][ assembly last week. I haven't gotten far yet, but the following has been the most helpful so far.

http://www.appleoldies.ca/anix/A2_Hyde_6502_Asm_Lang.pdf

Found here.

 

[Gorgonops]

As the semi-maintainer for xa, one such crossassembler, I concur

Heh. I was considering mentioning your name, but yes, "xa" is the assembler I've been using. ;^)

 

[senrew]

Thanks for all the help. Actually, my eventual goal is to build my own 6502 based kit computer, but that's a loooooong way down the to do list. I've always been fascinated by the skill and vision needed to build something like a whole computer from scratch, and I hope to be able to do the same some day. The Apple II was the first machine I ever used and pretty much set the standard for me to compare others to my whole life.

I figured learning asm for the 6502 would be easiest if I used the II as a frame of reference, especially considering how woz's mind worked while designing it. The plan is to build as many of the peripherals as I can myself, down to the firmware, so I intend to use the II as a prototyping system since it's 100% open when it comes to building new boards for the slots, etc.

 

[Dog Cow]

You'll also need the reference manuals for the Apple II, since you'll need to know the Monitor subroutines and memory map.