Good first Apple II?

[rjkucia]

Hi all, I've never had an Apple II before and I've become somewhat curious about getting one. I think the IIc+ looks like the ideal machine for what I'd want - it's tiny, has everything built in that I'd really need, and the lack of a 5.25" drive doesn't really matter since I don't have any Apple II floppies right now anyways.

A few questions:

• Can a Macintosh interact with a IIc 3.5" floppy at all? Like making images, transferring files, etc. I have an SE/30, and if I can use that to make new disks, that'd be a huge plus.
• Are the serial ports between the II and the Mac compatible? They both *look* like LocalTalk - can you hook them up together and transfer files/network/etc that way?
• The IIc+ looks pretty hard to find. The IIc looks a little easier to find but the ones I see are usually pretty expensive. I'd be looking to spend <$200, ideally closer to $100 for an Apple II. Is that unrealistic for a IIc (plus or otherwise)? Are there other Apple II models that are less desired or more common that I'd have more luck with?

 

[Skate323k137]

So to play devils advocate, the IIc has no expansion slots. This greatly limits your abilities.

Honestly I'd recommend an IIe [platinum if you can find it, quite common in the grand scheme of things] as a good first apple II to anyone, however, if you want to bridge the gap to Mac, an IIgs is definitely one to consider. The IIgs can handle an 800K external drive without an additional controller card (A IIe would need a Yellowstone or other disk controller capable of 3.5" disks).

If you are trying to stay on a budget a IIc may also prove difficult just due to them being so sought after. I actually own a Laser 128, which is a VTech clone of the IIc, which has an expansion slot among other awesome features. If you're really after the IIc form factor, a Laser 128 is an interesting one to look out for.

 

[Andy]

Macs with the correct extensions can read and write to ProDOS formatted 800k floppies. The IIgs, IIc, and IIc plus have serial ports and you can use serial transfer programs like ADT to move files back and forth. One thing to note is that the IIc uses a larger socket, but there are adapters floating around.

If you have a IIe, you can get a Super Serial Card that acts just like the serial ports in the IIc and IIc plus.

The IIc and IIc plus do not speak LocalTalk. Only the IIgs does. There is an Apple II Workstation Card for the IIe that adds LocalTalk support, but it seems quite expensive and uncommon. Hmm, wonder how difficult it would be to clone

My advice for finding a good deal on an Apple II is be patient and keep checking. I picked up a rev A Apple IIe last summer for a fairly good price. Just gotta wait for the people cleaning out a parent's basement.

 

[rjkucia]

So to play devils advocate, the IIc has no expansion slots. This greatly limits your abilities.

What types of cards do people put in these? The main ones I seem to be able to find are video, serial, and floppy, which the IIc has built in. The only thing else I can think of would be SCSI, which would be nice.

The IIgs can handle an 800K external drive without an additional controller card

I'd like to avoid getting a bunch of external stuff if I can help it - I don't think I'd use this enough to make it worth all that storage space. The IIc is the only model with a built-in floppy drive, correct? The IIe does have a cassette-in port, I believe, and that could actually be even more convenient than a floppy.

Macs with the correct extensions can read and write to ProDOS formatted 800k floppies. The IIgs, IIc, and IIc plus have serial ports and you can use serial transfer programs like ADT to move files back and forth.

Thanks! That gives the IIc+ some bonus points for me.

The IIc and IIc plus do not speak LocalTalk. Only the IIgs does

Gotcha - the just use the ports as standard serial ports and do not have any ability to network over them, is that correct?

 

[joshc]

I don't think I'd use this enough to make it worth all that storage space.

What about trying Apple II emulation or the IIe Card in a Mac? Either of those options is the ultimate space saver...

 

[rjkucia]

What about trying Apple II emulation or the IIe Card in a Mac? Either of those options is the ultimate space saver...

My Mac is an SE/30, so no cards for that. And of course, we could all use emulation for anything, but where's the fun in that?

 

[Skate323k137]

What types of cards do people put in these?

How much time do you have? Heh.

Here are my IIe's that I have loaded out:

IIe Enhanced	New PSU, RAMworks IIII, uthernet II, Mouse card, 5.25 controller, MicroDrive Turbo, Super Serial, SAM
IIe Platinum	New PSU, Super Serial, MIDI, CP/M card, MicroDrive Turbo, RAMworks IIII, Yellowstone Disk controller, Mockingboard, RTC

The interesting ones for me:

The Uthernet allows some interesting stuff with an ethernet controller, aside from the obvious, I stream music with A2Stream and that's quite fun.

Microdrive Turbos are amazing; it's internal mass storage with DMA. As fast as it gets for stuff that you don't have to run from floppy (barring accelerators cards)

CP/M card is a Z80 computer on a card, if you're interested in exploring ancient operating systems or running BASIC at stupid speeds on an Apple II with a Z80.

MIDI is awesome to have for Ultima, as is the Mockingboard. There is a IIc Mockingboard in existence but it's an internal mod and I don't know if they are still made.

I also personally make and sometimes use the "Brain Board II" which lets you use an Apple II(e) as an Apple I including the cassette interface.

The yellowstone allows connecting 5.25 drives, 3.5 drives, a FloppyEMU, or even a FujiNet (That thing is awesome, you can network boot a IIgs with one, no yellowstone needed).

SAM is a speech synthesizer and also a passthrough amplifier to an external 8 ohm speaker for the Apple II audio.

What about trying Apple II emulation or the IIe Card in a Mac? Either of those options is the ultimate space saver...

If you're not after any expansion stuff, this is a really good route to look.

 

[Phipli]

wonder how difficult it would be to clone

Fairly easy - it is an embedded 6502 based computer on a card. RAM, ROM, 6502 and a 8530 serial chip. Other than that there isn't much at all.

 

[rjkucia]

Oh wow, that's a lot of stuff.

uthernet II

I had no idea there was an ethernet card for the Apple II!

Mouse card

What kind of software uses a mouse? Obviously GS/OS does, but there's not any sort of GUI shell for the 8-bit models is there?

 

[4seasonphoto]

Don’t overlook disk-emulator products as an alternative to real floppy disks, particularly as floppies were never meant to last forever.

 

[rjkucia]

Don’t overlook disk-emulator products as an alternative to real floppy disks, particularly as floppies were never meant to last forever.

Yeah I think that with whatever model I go with, I'd either use ADT or the cassette port most of the time, since I don't have any floppies to start with. Maybe a floppy emu down the line, but it sounds like those two solutions would be good enough to start with.

 

[Skate323k137]

A floppyEMU is amazing for an Apple II. I use them far more on those than I do on my Macs.

there is actually an Apple II 8 bit desktop, and a mouse paint app. Also proterm has a cursor for the menus if a mouse is present, and proterm is my preferred BBS terminal software.

If you end up with an Apple II of any sort, but no disks, and just need like a half dozen working 5.25" or 800k 3.5" disks, I would happily dig a handful out for you.

 

[bibilit]

Never get used to the Apple IIc, had a few, but never kept any.

Simply no fun machines for me, no expansion slots to play with.

The Apple IIc is less bulky than the II, but probably the only interesting feature.

The Apple IIc + was more or less a failure, very few softwares were available in 3,5 size.

Concerning the mouse, you have got MouseDesk which is available (GUI similar to GS/OS)

 

[rjkucia]

The Apple IIc + was more or less a failure, very few softwares were available in 3,5 size.

That's what I keep hearing - I was hoping that would make them cheap, but that doesn't seem to be the case!

Concerning the mouse, you have got MouseDesk which is available (GUI similar to GS/OS)

Oh wow - that's pretty cool! I found this video of it:

If you end up with an Apple II of any sort, but no disks, and just need like a half dozen working 5.25" or 800k 3.5" disks, I would happily dig a handful out for you.

That'd be great! I'll let you know!

 

[Byte Knight]

I'd suggest the IIgs - it will run most of the old Apple II stuff and it's also the most Mac-like. With an Uthernet card and PiSCSI, you can share files between your vintage Macs and IIgs and also print to a modern printer over your network with both.

 

[Skate323k137]

Seeing as the IIgs and IIc both fetch premiums, leaning toward the IIgs isn't a bad idea at all, as long as you know there wasn't a ton of stuff made that really leveraged the 16 bit architecture in the grand scheme of things and are ok with this. Having ADB, Mac like serial ports, etc., and still expansion slots, I agree they are great systems especially for folks with classic Macs and accessories laying around.

The stereo sound from a IIgs (requires a card like the darksound) is really nice. RGB output as a standard feature too is great if you have a 15k monitor or upscaler like the Retrotink.

 

[volvo242gt]

I'd go with the IIgs. The IIc+ is too much of a collector's item. It does come with a zipchip preinstalled, but the gs is a much better machine.

 

[Skate323k137]

The IIc+ is too much of a collector's item

I feel the same, and unless one falls into my lap, I'm more than happy with a Laser 128. There were some funny vTech adverts for the Laser 128 series in magazines back in the day, I'll have to dig one out for laughs; I'll post it if I find it. With the bus extender I basically have a IIc with slots 5 and 7 available externally, and digital RGB. I'm also lucky enough to have an obscure NEC monitor with a configurable TTL RGB input.

 

[rjkucia]

I'd suggest the IIgs - it will run most of the old Apple II stuff and it's also the most Mac-like.

tbh I think the "Mac-like-ness" of the IIgs kinda turns me off to it. I also like the novelty of a buit-in keyboard. That said, if a cheap gs pops up, I'm not opposed!

I'm more than happy with a Laser 128.

I looked around and these seem to go for as much or more than an actual IIc! Could just be eBay being wonky, or that these weren't very common.

Also I think I just need to admit to myself... the IIc has a handle. Computers with handles are cool. That's at least like, half the appeal for me. Plus it'd fit nicely on a shelf where a IIe wouldn't, so I think I'll just wait for a IIc to show up at a good price.

 

[Skate323k137]

I looked around and these seem to go for as much or more than an actual IIc! Could just be eBay being wonky, or that these weren't very common.

Unfortunately more that people caught on in recent years IMHO. I can't speak for numbers, but they sold very well given they had more features and less cost than a IIc. People in computer sales at the time tell me that they essentially sold themselves.

I could also completely speculate that because they were cheaper and vTech branded, people may have been quicker to toss them as years went by.

(And it has a handle, just for the record. Fits in my Apple branded IIc bag too, to boot).

Full disclosure, I was in the same 'wait for a cheap IIc to pop up' category when I found my Laser. Either way, I wish you luck! Just keep in mind a IIc means no ethernet card option among other things, but we already went over that