Getting my macintosh plus to boot from a external hard drive

[tomlee59]

It never hurts to try power cycling, but that doesn't seem to be the problem. The drive *sounds* like it's spinning up correctly and as expected, not to mention it's mounting on the desktop without any more intervention. It simply sounds like your problem is the drive is not bootable to me, and that's entirely a software/formatting issue.

Well, not so fast, young bird.

I have had drives that were slow to spin up (as I mentioned before, either due to the infamous stiction problem that afflicted many drives of their generation, or from bearing grease that had gotten sticky with time). They frequently would not boot. However, I could mount them if I booted off of a floppy, just as described by the OP. If I did the power cycle trick, I could get them to boot reliably. So I wasn't speaking theoretically. I have directly observed this phenomenon.

That said, I do agree that it's a long shot, but it's such an easy experiment that it's worth a try.

Much more likely is a need to reformat at 3:1 interleave, and reinstall a clean Plus-compatible OS.

 

[didius]

Succes! (well, mostly)

Thanx a lot everyone for the help.

After trying various methods it works.

I've been trying lido, apple HD SC to change the interleave ratio, but since it isn't a apple hard disk, i had to search around but at last it works.

I can now boot Mac OS 6.0.8 from the hard disk.

However i'm not satisfied yet. I would like the Plus to boot mac os 7! (which doesn't exist in a 800k version)

I have another macintosh, so i thought about setting it up to network with the plus, but that's trickier than i thought.

The other macintosh is a black beauty, Performa 5400/180.

I downloaded a system disk called: Appleshare workstation.

Booting up from that disk let's me "see" my performa, but won't let me connect to it (causes a system error).

Installing Appleshare makes the Plus crash at boot: Sorry a system error occurred. ID=12.

Any ideas?

 

[equill]

AppleShare is part of the system software of both Macs. There should be no necessity to install it, and installing an inappropriate version may be producing the crash. Your aim is to set up the Performa as server and the Plus as client.

Connect the printer ports of the two Macs with a serial cable (DB-9/miniDIN- 8) . Switch on both Macs. Use Control Panels::AppleTalk to select Printer Port in both Macs. Save the settings when you are prompted. On the Performa, open Sharing Setup from Control Panels::Sharing Setup, enter the Mac's name, your name as Owner, and a password. Select Start to start up filesharing. If you have only one HDD in the Performa you will not need to go through setup of more than one HDD in File::Sharing... Activate the HDD in the checkbox, and adjust other permissions as you please. Check your permissions as owner to share files in Control Panels::Users and Groups by opening the file with your name.

Open Control Panels::Chooser on the Plus. Double-click on AppleShare in the left pane. The Plus should show the Performa's name in the right pane. Highlight the Performa's name, and then click on OK below the pane, enter your password in the next window, and choose the HDD or partition in the next window. A network AppleShare icon of the Performa's drive should appear on the Plus's desktop. You can open that (double-click) and navigate to whatever files you wish to copy (click/drag) to or from the HDD of the Plus. When you have finished copying, or at the end of a session, highlight the Performa's icon on the Plus's desktop and press command-y (eject) to disconnect the Plus from the Performa

I have a 512Ke (System 6.0. 8) and a Classic II (System 7.5) connected thus at the moment. (My black 5400 and 5500s were enjoying RDOs.) LocalTalk networking is very much slower than Ethernet networking, but it works.

de

 

[didius]

Thanks for the information.

Still no succes however. Here's what i've done.

I've reinstalled mac os 6.0.8, and say there s a possibility to install extras, like appleshare (didn't notice that first)

So my macintosh plus has appleshare (or appletalk) installed now.

I can't acces my performa hard disk however.

There isn't any control panel::Appletalk either on system 6.0.8

Here's a little movie i made:

http://webs.hogent.be/~054169dv/mac/plusappleshare.mpg

And this is what my performa shows after my plus connected:

thnx for all the help

Retro computing is cool!

 

[equill]

There is no 'or' involved. AppleTalk is the protocol for sending data, and AppleShare is a program to control who and what 'sees' what. You need both. LocalTalk (serial port to serial port) is the physical connection between Macs. LocalTalk was invented by Apple to allow several Macs to connect to a single (very expensive) LaserWriter, extended to allow Macs to connect to each other. It's part of the System, and it just 'is'. All you can do is substitute it with Ethernet in the Network Software control panel if that is installed and visible to you. The older Network control panel is invisible when it is installed, and works its magic unbeknownst to its user except by the results of its working.

Although you must set up the Performer as a server, the act of filesharing is controlled entirely from the Plus. In all probability you will see nothing in the Chooser window of the Performa. In the Chooser window of the client Plus you will see the name of the Performa, and the software will mount a representative network icon of the Performa's HDD on the desktop of the Plus. You must set up the Performa to share its files. You cannot invert the process (ie, make the Plus into the server) under 6.0.8 because there is no FileSharing control panel. Try the setup again with these immutable considerations in mind. You haven't mentioned the System/OS on the Performa. This won't change what you have to do, but what you see on the Performa will be displayed differently depending as the Performa has System 7 or OS 8 or 9.

Embroider this motto on your handkerchief and hang that on the wall: 'Never be defeated by an inanimate object'. If the setup is not working, you may have to consider that the fault lies in the Performa, and to fix that.

de

PS Loved the audio in your QuickTime production, but there was no video (iMac CRT 500, OS 10.4.10, QuickTime 7.2 with Pro key).

 

[Big Bird]

You may find this easier:

http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_7.0.x/System_7.0.smi.bin

Apple has a copy of System 7.0 800K disk images on their website. You can download those to your Performa and make actual floppies, the same way you did with System 6.0.8.

As far as the file sharing issue goes, what size hard drive do you have in the Performa? Systems prior to 7.5 have issues connecting to partitions larger than 2 GB even on shared drives. I have the same problem when I try to connect some of my older Macs to a G4. Strangely, I've seen it both work and not work, but I haven't done enough testing to figure out exactly why.

Once you've installed System 7.0, you may have better luck configuring AppleTalk networking so that you can upgrade to 7.0.1.

Also, I can see the video just fine. The only thing different in my setup is QuickTime Pro 7.1.6 and a PowerBook G4.

 

[equill]

Big Bird's point about drive size in the Performa is a good one. I don't remember what was in my black 5400 because it now has a Seagate 7.5GB, but Everymac lists 1.6GB and 2.4GB as stock HDD sizes in the 5400/180, and System 7.5 as minimal. The Performa can certainly 'see' such sizes of drive, but System 6.0.8 cannot see more than 2GB. System 7.5 can, and 7.5.2 and up can see 2TB (theoretisch).

Unfortunately, although 7.5.5 is nominally the max. System for the Plus, its 4MB max of RAM will make it breathless on 7.5 unless you prune its System software, or use, again as Big Bird suggests, a floppy disk (already pruned) for booting. The floppy disk must contain the networking software or the exercise will be doomed. Progress then depends on the Plus's being faced with a partition (or whole drive) of less than 2GB in the Performa when the Plus using 6.0.8 is sharing the Performa's HDD.

de

 

[didius]

alright, thanx everyone.

The size of my performa's hard disk is: 13 GB. (the orginal one died some time ago) It runs Mac OS 9.1

So the size of the hard disk probably be the troublemaker.

Upgrading to 7.5.5 wouldn't be a good idea as i read here.

What would be the best OS for Mr T. (4 Mb) then?

System 7.0.1?

 

[Big Bird]

That large of a drive could definitely be a problem, along with OS 9.1. That's virtually the same size partition and same OS that's on the G4 tower I have had problems with connecting to from Macs of the Plus's vintage.

I didn't mean to use a boot disk to connect to the Performa. I meant that you could install a full System 7.0 onto the Plus from the set of installation disks you make. If the Plus had a 1.4 MB floppy drive, you could use Apple's System 7.5 Network Access Disk to access the Performa, but there's no way that's going to work on an 800K disk.

I think once you install a full System 7.0 installation, you may have better luck connecting to an AppleShare server so you can update to 7.0.1. Certainly the interface for configuring networking will be more familiar to you than that found in System 6. Even if we still have no luck, there's little wrong with System 7.0, as long as you install the System 7 Tune-Up, which may be available on Apple's website, or I can send you a copy. It will fit on an 800K disk so that you can install it.

Running any version of 7.5 on the Plus is silly, in my opinion. Not only is it going to strap you for RAM, but there's very little real advantage. Most things you can do on a Plus in 7.5, you can do in 7.0 -- I run my Plus under 7.0.1 as a web server. Unless you have a specific application where you need the features of 7.5, I'd say definitely stick with 7.0. Not to mention 7.0 still maintains a lot of that "classic nostalgia," which is probably more than half the reason you want to get the Plus up and running in the first place!

And one more thing . . .

Your Plus has an external, SCSI hard disk. You can plug this drive into your Performa and either install System 7.0/7.0.1 onto the drive by running the installer on the Performa, or just drop the installer files onto the drive and run the install once you get back on the Plus.

 

[tomlee59]

Coupla things:

1) After installing 7.0 (if that's what you end up doing), be sure to apply the update to 7.0*. That will cure problems like disappearing folders (!). And if you're using a later version of 7, just be sure to apply any updates that may exist for that version.

2) You can support drives larger than 2GB, as long as you partition it into pieces no larger than 2GB. There's a limit to the number of partitions, but that's almost never a practical constraint.

 

[Quadraman]

http://webs.hogent.be/~054169dv/mac/unistor6.JPG <-- that looks like a 50pin SCSI drive.

Something is very wrong here. The drive pictured here is clearly an Apple drive with the red Apple logo on it, but the drive in the first post is not the same drive.

Look at the orientation of the Quantum sticker in the first post and compare it to the one linked in the reply that I quoted. It is clearly not the same drive.

 

[didius]

http://webs.hogent.be/~054169dv/mac/unistor6.JPG <-- that looks like a 50pin SCSI drive.

Something is very wrong here. The drive pictured here is clearly an Apple drive with the red Apple logo on it, but the drive in the first post is not the same drive.

Look at the orientation of the Quantum sticker in the first post and compare it to the one linked in the reply that I quoted. It is clearly not the same drive.

You're right.

I have two drives. One 40 MB drive with an Apple logo.

An other 130 MB with exact the same connectors, as about the same logic board but without an Apple Logo.

 

[didius]

Victory

System 7.0.1 installed and everything running fine. And i have to say (nerd-style): I love that little mac

Thanx for the help everyone

68kMLA rocks!

 

[Big Bird]

Good to hear! The Plus is a true charm of a Mac.

 

[funkytoad]

Always glad to here another success story!

 

[equill]

Don't say it out loud, but just think it to yourself: didius 1; Murphy 0.

Good one.

de