Designers on quest to build $12 computer (based on NES)

[Bunsen]

Constructivism

Hmm.
Our high school bought a bunch of BBCs and manuals, stuck them in a room and let us access them on breaks and after school. For at least a year, nothing much else was done with them, apart from purchasing a few more, and making a LAN with them.

We ended up with a room full of students throwing manuals back and forth at each other, calling out "Hey what's the xxx to do yyy?" and someone else calling the answer back over their shoulder in between madly trying to finish and save their port of Spacewar before the 15 minute recess was up. It was a hothouse of creativity in which we all learnt from the ground up, because we wanted to, and no-one got in out way.

I always assumed that it was simple ignorance and policy vacuum that created that situation, but now I wonder. It was a very conservative school, with a couple of very radical (and sneaky) teachers - one of whom set up the Beeb lab ...

there are a few constructivist tools out there / like Alan Kay's association with Squeak (a SmallTalk environment) and Bill Atkinson's association with HyperCard (HyperStudio is a variant on the theme, and still very much alive).

Seymour Papert:

constructivism -> LOGO -> SmallTalk -> Squeak

->"Mindstorms" (book)

->Lego Mindstorms

->OLPC

But here's the hitch. When I've seen GSP and Fathom in use, students were always given explicit instructions on how to use it. So rather than using a constructivist approach, you are simply offering a variant on direct instruction.

Adopting the tool, but completely failing to grasp the idea.

As I've said before, most of the teacher's I've met simply don't understand computers. Ah well.

Most of the teachers I've met don't understand learning. They may understand teaching, but that's not the same thing at all.

 

[Unknown_K]

I would think 486/P1 machines would be of more use then some nintendo clone, and already exist.

India itself is part 21st century and part 12th century depending on where you go, same with China.

 

[Bunsen]

So why are we talking about a $12 computer designed in the west?

We're.Not.

{grinds teeth}

have a look at the real project website / ignoring all the inaccurate, lazy reporting

By the way II2II, I agree with you about the potential for µc-based systems. I've discussed this with my OLPC chums, and tossed around names like "One Micro Per Child" and the "$5 laptop". I could well see someone tossing together a system with an AVR or PIC, and junked cellphone displays and keyboards.

In fact, Contiki potentially would be a good starting point, as it has been ported to quite a few micros, as well as 8 bit compys.

The problem being that it's hard to get into developing for these systems without a working "real" computer. A $10 computer with its own dev system onboard (even BASIC) has some real potential.

 

[II2II]

Sorry, missed the follow up articles.

Most of the teachers I've met don't understand learning. They may understand teaching, but that's not the same thing at all.

I'm going to hold my tongue to avoid commenting on many of the teachers that I've met, but I think it's fairly safe to say that noone really understands learning. All that I know is how we do it feels wrong. We like to say that we are there to help the child, but more often than not we are really just covering the curriculum.

I would think 486/P1 machines would be of more use then some nintendo clone, and already exist.

I'm not sure if a 486/P1 will be appropriate for them, but the design philosophy of a computer is more adaptable to their needs.

Anyway, now to read that article that I missed.

 

[porter]

I would think 486/P1 machines would be of more use then some nintendo clone, and already exist.

Yes I'm a bigger fan of shipping existing 386 upwards machines rather than having them in the landfill and mass producing something else that isn't really needed.

Most probably the problem is less opportunity for various palms to be greased along the way.

 

[II2II]

Yes I'm a bigger fan of shipping existing 386 upwards machines rather than having them in the landfill and mass producing something else that isn't really needed.

The question is though: is that what they really need?

I've heard horror stories relating to traditional computers in tropical climates. These range from over-heating (ask our friends in the southern US for a mild example of that), to various critters and molds growing in them. Clearly this isn't going to be the case in every under developed part of the world, but it could be.

I did read about half of that wiki Bunsen pointed to. It sounds like they are trying to develop a new computer, albeit on principles developed by local markets (the so-called NES clones). There may be a good reason for this. One being compatability between systems, in the case that they aren't true NES clones. After all, it sounds like the purpose of the project is content.

Content appears to be one of the objectives, as well as developing means of transmitting that content (writable media and communications systems). They claim that one of the reasons for this is that the profit motive may sell the systems, but they have failed to fully develop the market. Perhaps for good reason: it's probably hard to sell accessories or higher cost systems (my speculation). As such they are suggesting some sort of commercial/non-profit hybrid.

Back to why our rejects won't help: most computers outside of the 8 and 16-bit era don't actually use televisions as displays. One of the reasons for the popularity of these $10-$15 computers is because they work with TVs. Oddly enough, that probably parallels the early adoption of personal computers in developed nations. Even donating a monitor may not help. The target market used in this example only uses the TV for a couple of hours per day, because they are run off of car batteries. (Wow, car batteries have that much juice!) These 8-bit computers probably don't do much to lower the battery life, but a full computer and monitor will. Particularly since my recollection of CRT monitors is that they do use more power than CRT TVs. Then you have a power hungry computer on top of that. Of course not all markets are power constrained like that, but not all markets are like North America with cheap and plentiful electricity.

So no, discards probably won't work.

 

[Unknown_K]

I never said discards from the US, there are plenty of machines in India that could be reused.

 

[Bunsen]

And believe me, they are, until they crumble into dust.

 

[Bunsen]

Here's the first piece of reasonably accurate reporting I've managed to track down. Judging by the comment thread below it though, people are still failing to grasp that they are not designing a new computer, but looking to use an existing one.

So if kids use computers at an early age will they
(a) all become Nobel prize winners /

( B) become spoonfed dummies /

Neither. Nor is the rest of the world outside the US, EU, Japan and Australia

(a) New Jersey

( B) Somalia

© waiting helplessly for the US to save them

(d) really all that interested in what we think

I don't think anybody in the US has a clue what a 3rd world nation needs for education / Did somebody have a marketing meeting on what markets were left to exploit / some 3rd world kids dying from hunger and have no electricity!

a country with no jobs. / teach them how to grow food and sanitize water / If you want a job / you need to be an advanced user. Just knowing how to use a mouse and windows / does not help you to get a job

It's your own ignorance and arrogance that's on display here, and repeatedly

As Lomas told the Herald, “If you just know how to type, that can be the difference between earning $1 an hour instead of $1 a day.”

Team:1. Jesse Austin-Breneman: ACCA, Cusco, Peru

2. Miguel Chaves dos Santos: Engenheiros Sem Fronteiras – Brasil, Escola Politécnica da Universidade de São Paulo.

3. Rev. George Fuachie: Kintampo North District, Ghana.

4. Derek Lomas: University of California, San Diego.

5. William McIver, Jr.: National Research Council of Canada and Faculty of Computer Science, University of New Brunswick.

6. Anuj Nanavati: NVIDIA Corporation, Santa Clara, California.

Yes, just another bunch of ignorant, greedy American capitalists looking to grease their palms :

 

[II2II]

Uh, since when did Canada get on the list of developing nations? }

And since when was NRC relevant? Or the University of New Brunswick?

 

[luddite]

Team:1. Jesse Austin-Breneman: ACCA, Cusco, Peru

2. Miguel Chaves dos Santos: Engenheiros Sem Fronteiras – Brasil, Escola Politécnica da Universidade de São Paulo.

3. Rev. George Fuachie: Kintampo North District, Ghana.

4. Derek Lomas: University of California, San Diego.

5. William McIver, Jr.: National Research Council of Canada and Faculty of Computer Science, University of New Brunswick.

6. Anuj Nanavati: NVIDIA Corporation, Santa Clara, California.

Yes, just another bunch of ignorant, greedy American capitalists looking to grease their palms :

Well 5 out of 6 are American at least.

 

[luddite]

Uh, since when did Canada get on the list of developing nations?

Looking around me, it seems an honest mistake.

 

[Bunsen]

Well 5 out of 6 are American at least.

In the sense that they are from the Americas, yes ...

II2II; I'm not calling Canada a developing nation. I'm just pointing out that the people involved are for the most part not from the United States, nor does it seem like any of them are motivated by profit, which the more cynical amongst us have suggested. And that given their respective origins and professional associations, the idea that they are exploitative profiteers who would have "no idea" what the developing world might need or want is pretty silly.

I originally bolded the last participant's name as well, but then I thought I was also being silly.

Even though I speak no Portuguese, it's pretty clear that Engenheiros Sem Fronteiras translates as Engineers Without Borders, who, like Médicins Sans Frontieres (Doctors Without Borders), are a volunteer, non-profit program that sends professionals where they are most needed.

 

[returningmacuser]

UPDATE: The MIT design team referred to in this post is basing its design not on the Apple II, but on the Nintendo Entertainment System, which used the same processor chip. We regret our error, which was originally reported by The Boston Herald article to whcih our post was linked. Thanks to David Zeiler at The Baltimore Sun for the clarification.

http://cultofmac.com/mit-designers-resurrecting-apple-ii-for-india/2474

I had a feeling that reporter knew sweet FA about computers.

I did notice that this evening. Shame, as it would have been really cool had they actually based it off the Apple II. Ah well, still cool enough.

Maybe this thread needs to be moved and the title changed.

 

[QuadSix50]

UPDATE: The MIT design team referred to in this post is basing its design not on the Apple II, but on the Nintendo Entertainment System, which used the same processor chip. We regret our error, which was originally reported by The Boston Herald article to whcih our post was linked. Thanks to David Zeiler at The Baltimore Sun for the clarification.

http://cultofmac.com/mit-designers-resurrecting-apple-ii-for-india/2474

I had a feeling that reporter knew sweet FA about computers.

I did notice that this evening. Shame, as it would have been really cool had they actually based it off the Apple II. Ah well, still cool enough.

Maybe this thread needs to be moved and the title changed.

Title updated and post-edit commentary regarding the change.

 

[II2II]

In this sort of case, I think it's fair to bundle in a Canadian with Americans. Our countries may be different, but there are sufficient similarities and enough wannabe Americans for the perceived motives to be the same. I'm also concerned about the Reverend in the mix, since they are often viewed as a colonialist or westernizing influence.

 

[Bunsen]

This is ridiculous. Someone wants to do something good in the world, and we all want to bag their motives or claim that we know better.

 

[II2II]

Motivations and, frequently, perceived motivations are very. One of my old roommates would always shop at big box stores and would always make purchases on credit or debit cards. He had a perception that small business owners and paying with cash was a sure way to get ripped off or robbed. The fact that all of the big box stores are either American or Americanized lead to his belief that they conducted honest transactions, while the largely immigrant operated stores that line the streets of this city led him to believe that they are fly-by-nights that are only interested in ill gained money. In other parts of the world, there may be backlashes towards Americanized or Westernized projects. Perhaps because they view it has having a negative impact on their culture, or simply because they believe that they best way to support their own kind is by dealing with their own kind.

As I've mentioned before, there is a social element to technology. How we react to it is often as important as what it does. It is impractical to catalog what the social reaction to something will be because it is often the cumulative impact of individual choices, and sometimes conflicting choices. For example, I have often heard people deriding Chinese manufactured goods yet buy them anyway because they are lower cost. They may deride them because of safety or quality, even though most of the stuff I've seen holds up remarkably well. They may deride them because they are taking American jobs, but few are willing to pay the higher price for those better paying American jobs. Some people are quite adamant though and will stick by their value judgments as best as we can.

See how we question the motives of someone else (real or perceived). Chinese jobs vs. American jobs (or Canadian or Australian). Profiting at the cost of quality and security. Hum. How do you think that notion affects how other people see us?

 

[Quadraman]

Here's the first piece of reasonably accurate reporting I've managed to track down. Judging by the comment thread below it though, people are still failing to grasp that they are not designing a new computer, but looking to use an existing one.

So if kids use computers at an early age will they
(a) all become Nobel prize winners /

( B) become spoonfed dummies /

Neither. Nor is the rest of the world outside the US, EU, Japan and Australia

(a) New Jersey

( B) Somalia

© waiting helplessly for the US to save them

(d) really all that interested in what we think

I don't think anybody in the US has a clue what a 3rd world nation needs for education / Did somebody have a marketing meeting on what markets were left to exploit / some 3rd world kids dying from hunger and have no electricity!

a country with no jobs. / teach them how to grow food and sanitize water / If you want a job / you need to be an advanced user. Just knowing how to use a mouse and windows / does not help you to get a job

It's your own ignorance and arrogance that's on display here, and repeatedly

As Lomas told the Herald, “If you just know how to type, that can be the difference between earning $1 an hour instead of $1 a day.”

Team:1. Jesse Austin-Breneman: ACCA, Cusco, Peru

2. Miguel Chaves dos Santos: Engenheiros Sem Fronteiras – Brasil, Escola Politécnica da Universidade de São Paulo.

3. Rev. George Fuachie: Kintampo North District, Ghana.

4. Derek Lomas: University of California, San Diego.

5. William McIver, Jr.: National Research Council of Canada and Faculty of Computer Science, University of New Brunswick.

6. Anuj Nanavati: NVIDIA Corporation, Santa Clara, California.

Yes, just another bunch of ignorant, greedy American capitalists looking to grease their palms :

And still you fail to understand. People in developing countries need basic survival skills before they need to learn to use technology. What good does it do when everyone knows how to use a computer when nobody is growing food? Computer skills are of little use to people who are starving and dying of dysentery. We should be building up the agro base of these countries before doing anything else so they can be self sufficient.

People seem to think it's easy going into a poor country that has nothing and turning into a new high tech state. It took hundreds of years for Western nations to reach that point of societal evolution, so what makes you think you can force it to happen overnight just by bringing in technology from outside? If anything, forcing technology on countries that are not ready for it is detrimental because now they suddenly have to build an energy infrastructure that they didn't need before to support it and they have to import fuel to sustain it, but where is the money coming from when they can't even feed themselves? They need self sufficiency first, then they need a strong export base to get hard cash rolling in, and THEN you can worry about teaching them more advanced skills. Teaching them about technology when they don't even have enough viable farms or clean water to sustain their population is putting the cart before the horse.

You say that typing skills alone can make a big difference, but how many jobs do you really think there are in those countries? When you have millions of starving people, 1,000 better paying jobs is a drop in the bucket, and what good does the extra money do for the people when there is nothing in the shops to buy? There is no difference at all between $1 hour and a $1 a day if you are still starving.

 

[Bunsen]

You're an idiot