Best way to archive vintage Mac floppies & CD's to images

[pcamen]

I ordered a Kryoflux FWIW.  I was motivated to be able to write Dos disks so I can try out my MacCharlie, but it will be interesting to try and archive stuff too. 

I think we talked about Diskcopy above, when to use v6 and when to use 4.2. 

- 4.2 for floppies

- 6 for CD's.

But now I'm making backups of hard drives too, as an easy way of backing them up, but have bumped up against the 2GB file size limit that Diskcopy 6 has.

What do folks use to backup hard drives other than just copying files to a folder on some other disk?  I like images and have more faith in them to capture the state of things than a fiile copy. 

 

[nglevin]

Depends on the system. When there isn't a Time Machine, there is rsync and cron/systemd on the POSIXes.

For any data on CF cards, typically only a few GB each, I end up doing a block-level copy of the entire device with all of its partitions as a single file with dd.

 

[olePigeon]

@pcamen  I'd be keen to know how that goes.  I ended up buying an AppleSauce because I couldn't find any clear instructions nor confirmation on support for imaging Macintosh disks with Kyroflux.

 

[Cory5412]

But now I'm making backups of hard drives too,

Are you making backups or archives?

If this is a backup of your system, I recommend using a real backup utility. Retrospect is what I'm using for vtools, but lots of different options were available.

If this is an archive of a system you received: You can use DC6 up to 2 gigs, as you discovered. Newer versions might be able to do more, at the trade-off of not being able to work on system 7.

To be honest, I think that archiving entire old systems is a bad idea unless there's something REALLY COMPELLING on the disk. (And even then I think we should be selective about what we put on the image, because the goal should be to get the software, not replicate an entire working environment.) (And then that kind of archive should be dumped as better archival of the installation media can be achieved.) This has gotta be, like, "I checked at 68kmla.org and googled and the internet hasn't heard of this particular piece of software" level.

"haha look it's netscape.com cached in 1996!" strikes me as creepy in the same way that the new trend of "heartwarming surveillance video of letter carrier and delivery people" strikes me as creepy. Mostly because of what else it implies the poster has access to and is willing to look at.
 

So, overall my recommendation is basically "don't do this" but if you have to, probably the best tool we have on the vntage Macs is to point regular backup or archival software at it.

The next best thing will be to pop the disk out and connect it to a newer computer for imaging with a tool like dd.

 

[dcr]

Guys, I've been playing with the Applesauce device, and it is an archivists dream.  I've got an Apple II drive and an external Superdrive (took a Superdrive from an SE/30 and put it in an 800k drive external chassis) and I can archive any Apple II disk as well as 400k, 800k, and 1.44M Mac disks all on my modern Mac.

Does the AppleSauce support 1.44 floppy disks?  I only see 400k/800k support listed on the website.

Is there an advantage to the 3.5" floppy drive support on the AppleSauce as opposed to just making disk images with a Mac that has a floppy drive?  I don't have any Apple 3.5" floppy disks so the only 3.5" disks I have are all Mac.

 

[pcamen]

Does the AppleSauce support 1.44 floppy disks?

No, but the creator has stated that he plans to implement that in the future.  I was wrong when I wrote that above, or just hopeful. 

Is there an advantage to the 3.5" floppy drive support on the AppleSauce as opposed to just making disk images with a Mac that has a floppy drive?  I don't have any Apple 3.5" floppy disks so the only 3.5" disks I have are all Mac.

The advantage is that you can do it on a modern Mac, and you can do flux images of the drives, which may be useful in the future.  They may be particular useful when imaging a rare disk that is corrupted, and would, I'm guessing, allow for the possibility of restoration.  For workflow, with the number of disks I have to archive, it is way faster and way less hassle to use the AppleSauce and get them directly on a Mac vs figuring out some data transfer path like using a SCSI2SD on the vintage Mac that is then plugged into the modern Mac.    I think it is faster using AppleSauce than on a vintage Mac but I don't have data to back that up. 

And in general is just gives you way more information about what is going on. 

If you don't have an external 3.5" drive, the 800k varieties aren't that expensive on eBay.  Forget a 1.44 MB external drive; people price them around $250 or $300, but you can just take an 800k drive and swap in a 1.44M mechanism for the same thing. 

 

[pcamen]

I just got and email from John at AppleSauce and he hopes to have 1.44M support in the next few months. 

 

[dcr]

If you don't have an external 3.5" drive, the 800k varieties aren't that expensive on eBay.

I looked yesterday.  There was one for $50 plus shipping but the rest were over $100.

 

[pcamen]

I looked yesterday.  There was one for $50 plus shipping but the rest were over $100.

I kept looking over several weeks and got one for $40 shipped and one for $47 shipped. 

 

[dcr]

I kept looking over several weeks and got one for $40 shipped and one for $47 shipped. 

Thanks.  I'll keep looking.  I was afraid prices had jumped dramatically and they'd be out of reach.

 

[pcamen]

Another success with a .toast image (Microsoft Office 98).  Opened it using Toast Titanium 18 on Catalina and burned it to a CD, then was able to use the CD to install on a Mac Mini G4 running 9.2.2.  I'm glad Toast still allows for backwards compatibility.

 

[Unknown_K]

Making an ISO image of a simple data disk should not be a problem on pretty much any system or platform. Things get a little more complicated when you have games with audio tracks and encryption or are multi session with mac and PC software on the same CD.

 

[pcamen]

@dcr here is a promising 3.5" drive on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1988-Apple-Computer-3-5in-Floppy-Disc-Drive-brand-new-working-original-box/303493387266?hash=item46a99d9402:g:Gh8AAOSwDoNeKLm3

Current.y $24 bit with $11.21 shipping.

It's 800k but you can easily swap in a 1.44 drive to the housing. 

 

[dcr]

@dcr here is a promising 3.5" drive on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1988-Apple-Computer-3-5in-Floppy-Disc-Drive-brand-new-working-original-box/303493387266?hash=item46a99d9402:g:Gh8AAOSwDoNeKLm3

Current.y $24 bit with $11.21 shipping.

It's 800k but you can easily swap in a 1.44 drive to the housing. 

Thanks.  I've added that one to my watch list.

 

[LazarusNine]

Making an ISO image of a simple data disk should not be a problem on pretty much any system or platform. Things get a little more complicated when you have games with audio tracks and encryption or are multi session with mac and PC software on the same CD.

Do you have any pointers regarding some of the latter examples? I remember trying to image a copy of Warcraft II, as I only had the original disc and didn’t want to lose the data if it were to get lost or damaged. That disc was complicated, because it contained both separate audio partitions AND a PC partition. If I remember correctly, the only image format that mirrored the disc and its partitions accurately was the proprietary Alcohol 120 MDS/MDF format. I’m not even sure bin/cue worked on that one. Given that it’s been so long since I’ve done this, I’d appreciate a few tips, as I have some other old games I’d like to properly image. Specifically, I want to preserve Studio 3DO’s Star Fighter, which I have a PPC disc of, but it has the separate audio partition. Thanks!

 

[Unknown_K]

I think it was a program called discjuggler that would backup data CDs with audio tracks.

 

[sfiera]

Do you have any pointers regarding some of the latter examples? I remember trying to image a copy of Warcraft II, as I only had the original disc and didn’t want to lose the data if it were to get lost or damaged. That disc was complicated, because it contained both separate audio partitions AND a PC partition.

My understanding of the CD format is that there can only be one data track on a CD. Tracks are different from partitions, but the data track could have a partition map with multiple partitions (e.g. HFS and FAT). Software for ripping ISOs should be able to see the whole data track, including the partition map and separate partitions. Software for ripping cue files should treat the whole data track as an opaque block. With the cue file, audio tracks, and the whole data track, I think you could burn a copy of the original CD.

I used to use a piece of software called Max for ripping CDs. It supports cue, but it doesn’t yet have a 64-bit build and won’t run on Catalina.

There’s work being done to support cue files in Sheepshaver too, which specifically mentions Warcraft II compatibility. After you’ve ripped a CD to ISO/cue, that build of Sheepshaver might be a quick way to validate it.

 

[pcamen]

Here is a couple of more reasonably priced external drives on eBay, both presently $30 bit and $15 shipping.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Macintosh-Computer-3-5-Floppy-External-Disc-Drive-800K-A9M0106-AS-IS/153844590285?epid=1500240877&hash=item23d1da26cd:g:HO0AAOSwADReVGil

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Macintosh-Computer-3-5-Floppy-External-Disc-Drive-800K-A9M0106-AS-IS/153844587262?epid=1500240877&hash=item23d1da1afe:g:nNIAAOSwxlBeVGV5

 

[LaPorta]

It's pretty amazing to me what sort of price an external 800k drive commands today.

 

[pcamen]

Well, in defense of the current prices for the 800k variety, the 1.44MB external drives are usually priced around $300, which is silly, because you can just swap the mechanism and get the same thing for a lot less.