Apple ][ Woes

[Academician]

As I posted in Conquests I recently bought and just today got an Apple ][e Platinum. It came with a 5.25" drive and an RGB Monitor (which I'm pretty much using as a large paperweight atm). The RGB Monitor of course won't work the the ][e, and as I suspected it's just something the recycler stuck in the auction just to get rid of, it is ungodly yellowed and suffers some nasty case damage, and I have as of yet not tested it.

The computer itself has inside a 5.25" Drive Controller, a Super Serial Card (which we originally assumed was a parallel card), the Mouse Control Card, and some memory expansion card in a small slot one the opposite side as the rest.

When it arrived, the mouse card and the super serial card were out of there sockets and tumbling around inside the case, how this happened is unknown. So much for the guaranteed professional packing and pre-sell testing of the product.

When I first opened it of course I found a recycled school ][e in some need of tlc, which I happily tended to. I managed to get the machine relatively clean, inside and out, even though the case yellowing is still quite noticeable due to the fact that the area where a monitor would generally sit is still in factory color condition.

I had vacuumed the large layer of dust off of all the internal components, and I had taken the keyboard to water to clean out all of the gunk that was clearly visible. Of course before the next step I allowed ample time to dry, and even assisted using a hair dryer.

After I had everything hooked back together I hooked up the power to the machine, the video out connection to my TV, plugged in the 5.25" drive, and let'er rip.

The very first bootup seemed normal, it showed Apple \\e on my TV, and checked the disk drive for a system disk (which I don't have anyway). It then displayed the prompt...but the keyboard wouldn't type in any text.

I tried hitting the Reset key on the keyboard but this didn't do a darned thing. So I performed a cold boot. The screen filled with garbage, no discernible text, and this did so every cold boot until I allowed ~10 seconds after I shut it off until I turned it on again.

This time it booted up again to the prompt, and I was able to type text, so I thought it might have been just bad luck. I then popped in a Wheel of Fortune game disk I have from my IIGs (labelled IIe compatible). I hit the reset key, which again, did bupkis. I did another cold boot after waiting 10 seconds, and it seemed to read the disk, but did nothing. It continued to the prompt.

So I removed the disk and did another cold boot, this time I was greeted by simply the Apple \\e on my TV, and it sat there, no prompt, no nothing.

I left the machine off for a while, and then popped my Bard's Tale II disk into the drive to see if I could illicit a response. It booted one again to the Apple \\e on my TV, read the disk for quite some time, stopped, and froze. I then popped out the disk and performed yet another cold boot.

This time it went straight to the prompt, no Apple \\e on the stop of the screen. But something was up, if I entered a command, the error I was returned was in..SPANISH Oo? As far as I can remember the first time I got to enter text at the prompt returned english errors, so I'm confused as hell.

At this point I'm starting to consider this machine a lost investment, but I'd sure love to hear all of your thoughts on what may be wrong. I've decided to put off working on it until tomorrow, wait for maybe any excess moisture I missed to evaporate. My first step will probably be to remove the expansion cards to see if they were out of their sockets for a reason, but I sure hope that isn't the case.

If any of you have any other troubleshooting tips or tricks I'd love to hear them. I'm too new to the ][ world to know wth is up with this machine.

-Academician

 

[FerazelX]

I suggest demanding your money back, and if they won't do it, sue them!

 

[luddite]

Sorry to hear about your misfortune...

From your description it's hard to say what's wrong (could even be multiple problems). I'd start by double-checking the keyboard connection and removing all the expansion cards.

The fact that you've seen Spanish on screen would suggest that this IIe has dual character roms... a lot of the Canadian ones have French characters which can be selected via a small rocker switch under the front edge of the case, I'd guess the same would be true in other regions. I'm wondering if a faulty selector switch could cause the keyboard issues you describe.

Another common problem is corrosion on the socketed chips. Quite often you can remedy this by *carefully* prying them up a little and then firmly reseating them.

Hope that helps,

-s

 

[Academician]

Thanks for all the tips so far guys!

With a fresh start this morning I did as I had planned and you suggested and removed all of the interface cards, including the 80 Col/64k card, and I still had some problems.

When I first turned it on I got this stream of data on the TV, I guessed that these were memory locations, as it was obviously in hexadecimal. In a haste of fast cold boots I did get the Spanish text mode again, but since then I haven't seen it, or figured out how the hell that happens. I have no rocker switches on the case, and it's apparently either some system bug or random error.

A few restarts later and I was greeted with the familiar Apple \\e screen, but no prompt. I started screwing around on the keypad and found a few interesting things. If I hit Control + Restart, I got a prompt. From there if I hit Control + Apple + Restart I got back to the Apple \\e screen. Pressing Option + Control + Restart made the screen turn into a jumble of random color pixelated screens (the first was reds greens and blues, the second purples greens and whites, I think). A third press revealed a screen of random characters strewn about.

I turned off the computer, not knowing exactly what the hell I had just instigated. I decided that since obviously none of my cards had caused the malfunction that I would just put them back in. I made one change, however, in that I placed the 5.25" controller card into Slot 6 instead of 7. I then hooked up the drive and turned back on the computer. Apparently this was the slot it was supposed to be in, and I was just too much of a noob to notice...

To my surprise the EA logo appeared on the screen, I had forgotten to remove the Bard's Tale II disk from last night. The game loaded up well and seemed to work. Because I couldn't really do anything with the game, I shut down the ][e, removed the disk, and booted up once again.

Making my way back to the prompt I began to type, only to find that the character would repeat on the screen, forever. I then removed the outer case and reseated the keyboard a few times, same results.

I then removed the keyboard entirely and began to inspect it. I remembered hearing a slight cracking sound when I tightened the keyboard screws after my initial cleaning phase. There didn't appear to be any damage to the circuit board connections, but the board seemed to easily bend up on the corner nearest the screw I had been tightening.

Of interest was a screw tightening the circuit board to the risers from the keyboard itself, likely added to prevent what I had done from happening to the other side of the keyboard. So I fashioned a make-shift screw similar to the one they used and it worked wonders.

I then returned to the ][e and plugged in the keyboard and turned it on again. This time I had the same repeating character problem. I tried everything but no matter what I did it always repeated the last character I typed. Eventually, this problem did seem to go away after a few of the key combinations I smashed in earlier. I'm not sure if the keyboard working properly is a permanent thing, as I have just begun to put it all back together. So if you guys have any troubleshooting tips other than simply buying a new keyboard on eBay I'd love to hear them =]

For the most part I guess my problems are "solved" but I'm certainly a little wary of this keyboard problem. I don't have much money to put into these machines at the moment, and most of it will be going into an Apple ][e monitor so I don't have to hook it to my TV all the time.

One other minor issue at the moment is that the RCA Out connection for the monitor is VERY touchy, at times I feel like I'm going to break the thing off. I noticed that the support structure around it is bent out of shape and not doing much to help the problem. I am planning to attempt a re-forming of the supports to try and fix the issue, does anyone have a recommended solution to make is a tad stronger?

This case also has some small rust spots splattered along the bend in the bottom plate where it bends to meet the keyboard. I took a rough bristle brush to them at first (thinking they were Coke stains) and it seemed to help a little, but I know that cant get rid of it entirely. Any tips on how to combat this stuff and get rid of it?

That covers the extent of the main problems I'm having with this ][e...

I still have to decide what monitor to get, DigitalDinos sells both the Monitor II and the Color Composite ][e model. I have heard that the Monitor II is both brighter and has a more secure connection than the Color Composite model, any thoughts?

I also lack the software for this machine to even run properly which is a slight issue, heh. I was wondering if anyone knew where I could acquire the system disks, as well as any software that actually uses the Apple ][e mouse card. I'm planning on purchasing one of those as well, but I'd like to have the software to put it to use so it isn't a paperweight. I do luckily have plenty of games, so that isn't a problem =]

Thanks for all your help so far guys, I hope I can get this system working like my GS is ;]

-Academician

Addendum: The keyboard is at it again, and I have learned a few bits more of information. The only way to stop the stream of repeated characters it the escape key, nothing else seems to work.

I have at this point reseated the Keyboard ROM on the motherboard twice with no improvement. I can say that the cursor on the screen itself appears to flash at an incredible rate, and seems to be a probably cause of the problem is something is refreshing too fast. Thoughts?

 

[MultiFinder]

Well, first off, before you do much more, take pictures of it all, and tell the bozo that you bought it from that he sent you something that you didn't pay for. You paid for a working, decent condition Apple II, and you didn't receive one. ONLY after you have done that would I continue in whatever repairs that people here may suggest to you.

 

[Academician]

Unfortunately the thing was from an as-is recycler, and even though a DOA warranty was offered, his policy states clearly that any tinkering with the machine post-purchase voids the warranty. So essentially, because I bothered to look in the case to figure out what the hell was flying around inside of it, I already voided any chance of a return. I'll still likely contact them, but I doubt I'll get anything out of them, not that I didn't deserve it for buying something off of eBay =\

-Academician

 

[luddite]

I suspect the keyboard is your sole problem at this point... I have an early IIe which got a full cup of coffee dumped on the keyboard. After several cleaning attempt (including a run through the dishwasher) it still has problems with repeating keys as you describe. What happens is that the keys don't spring up properly after being pressed so the automatic repeat feature kicks in. Sticky keys can also cause problems at startup, like booting into self-test mode and so forth.

I'd look around eBay stores for a new platinum keyboard, they seem to be fairly common as NOS.

As far as monitors go, it really depends on what you plan to do with your IIe. If you're mainly into games then the Colour Composite is the better choice. The Monitor II is a monochrome (green phosphor) monitor, so it's not great for games, but much better for text...

 

[Academician]

Well I'll sure keep an eye out for the replacement keyboard. I did manage to find one on eBay but it is literally more expansive than what I paid for the entire IIe. That is of course, just unacceptable.

I'm going to do some more inspection on how to clear up the keyboard and get it working, worst thing I could do is break it and have to buy a new one anyway, so why not. It may just need a shot of WD-40, which may or may not short out the entire thing, but meh

Thanks for the advice on the monitor. I'll probably be using it more for games, as I don't really have a need to do text editing on it since I own a good 4 PCs atm. The Monitor II is a little less expensive, but I think I can spend a bit more for function.

As for the system disks, etc, anyone got a good source? I did manage to find a repository, but it requires administrator activation of the account, and I applied over a week ago :[

-Academician

 

[Quadraman]

Have you tried disassembling the keyboard and cleaning all the gunk out of it? Can it be disassembled without permanently destroying it?

 

[Academician]

I did indeed wash it out with hot water from my sink, which didn't seem to make much of a difference except clean out the mess of dust and grime that was inside.

Unfortunately, as fas as I can tell, each individual key has a switch that is saudered (sp?) to the circuit board that is on the back with the wiring to the motherboard. I'm not 100% sure yet if the individual keycaps themselves are removable from the switches, which will be part of my "mess around until it works or falls apart" strategy.

I think my first step will likely to be throwing it in the dishwasher as luddite did, without soap of course, and seeing if that fixes it. If that fails, I'll likely try to pry off the keycaps, and from there maybe use some WD-40 or other lubricant to get the keys to be responsive again.

Any ideas beyond that would be helpful =D

-Academician

 

[luddite]

As for the system disks, etc, anyone got a good source? I did manage to find a repository, but it requires administrator activation of the account, and I applied over a week ago :[

There's a lot of stuff online, but the problem is getting it to the IIe. You're lucky that you got a Super Serial Card so you can use ADT to transfer files... you'll just need to get the appropriate cable and be persistent ;-)

 

[Academician]

Success!

I have gotten the keyboard to work, and so far it seems to be staying that way. My stiff bristle brush treatment to keyboard once I had removed all the keycaps seems to have done the trick. I put it on top of one of my PCs overnight to dry and I couldn't be happier with the results.

That problem solved, it's just down to the simple stuff of course. That rust is still a bit on my mind, but the amount is small, so I should be able to cope with it.

I managed to bend the RCA Out supports close to where they should have been, and the jack is certainly more stable. It still makes me feel a little touchy around it but if worse comes to worse, I believe I can fix it using some wire instead of this stiff pin system that currently is in place.

I did manage to find a small site that hosts the .dsk images for the ProDOS and DOS 3.3 system disks. I'm going to have do to some looking to find out how to use all of it, and getting some things to use the mouse, etc. Hopefully once summer school is out I'll have time to dig around =]

I'd like to thank everyone for all the help and advice. I sure hope this machine keeps working like it is atm =]

-Academician

 

[Quadraman]

I was going to suggest a more thorough disassembly of the keyboard. I don't know how the Apple keyboards are constructed, but I remember a long time ago I spilled a very large Coke on one of my Atari 130XE's and had to completely pull the keyboard apart down to the printed circuits to get all the soda out. The keyboards in those models had a sheet of clear plastic with the circuit traces on it sandwiched inside the keyboard with a layer of dimpled plastic on top where the dimples lined up with the keys. I had to get all the soda off the clear plastic sheet to get it working again. I thought the Apple keyboards might be similar.