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64K ROMs and 800K floppy

Kallikak

Well-known member
Here's a slightly strange one. My 128K mac had been upgraded to 128K ROMs and internal 800K drive. Since my Plus covers this space well and I wanted a representative machine with the 64K ROMs I downgraded it, but kept the 800K drive (because I don't have a 400K drive and it appears to work perfectly). However, when I connect an external 800K drive, although both drives work, the INTERNAL drive motor starts making regular noises.

Is this just another manifestation of the standard "cut-wire-x" thing with 800K drives and the 128K/512K macs? Or something different?

 

Charlieman

Well-known member
There is another issue with the two different versions of the 800KB drive. Larry Pina describes the possible fixes but I don't have the book to hand.

 

Kallikak

Well-known member
There are heaps of very cheap second hand copies of the Dead Mac Scrolls available in the US - I got mine (perfect condition with disk!) from www.abebooks.com. The other Pina book for early macs is much harder to come by, but I have it too and will look into it to see if I can find where this is mentioned.

Thanks

 

Kallikak

Well-known member
Checked what Larry Pina had to say, his solution is "Upgrade to the 128K Roms" :)

However, he then talks about pin 20, and that is consistent with Tom Lee's paper as well, so I will try disconnecting it and seeing if things get better.

 

Quadraman

Well-known member
Here's a slightly strange one. My 128K mac had been upgraded to 128K ROMs and internal 800K drive. Since my Plus covers this space well and I wanted a representative machine with the 64K ROMs I downgraded it, but kept the 800K drive (because I don't have a 400K drive and it appears to work perfectly). However, when I connect an external 800K drive, although both drives work, the INTERNAL drive motor starts making regular noises.
Is this just another manifestation of the standard "cut-wire-x" thing with 800K drives and the 128K/512K macs? Or something different?
Apple did sell an upgrade kit to turn an older compact into a Plus. One of my Pluses is actually an older machine that has been upgraded. It sounds like you may have an amalgam of parts from the original machine and an upgrade kit. If that's what it is, I don't know how it's all working together, but something definitely isn't right. That may be the reason why your internal drive grinds away when there is a disc in the external one. You may need to put those 128k ROMS back in or get a 400k floppy. The 64k ROMS may be having problems with the 800k floppies. You may also have a Plus motherboard in there that is also having a disagreement with the 64k ROMS since it was never designed to work with those, either.

 

JDW

Well-known member
I think I posted in detail about this in the past, but my memory fails me and I am not able to pull up that post via Google. If only there was a backup before this site went down!

What I can say is that I have a Mac 512k with the original 64k ROMs and I also have a 400k internal drive, 400k external drive, 800k external drive and a HD20. I have tested all these drives together, even testing an 800k internal drive too, all with the 64k ROMs installed. After consulting a Larry Pina book, I cut the appropriate wires on the 800k external drive. But despite this, the LED on that drive still flashes every few seconds at boot time (before any disk is inserted). Every time the LED flashes, you can hear the motor spin (showing it is trying to access a disk). This will continue forever until you put in a floppy. I suppose it won't damage anything, but it is annoying, and I spent hours going over schematics and Pina books in vain trying to find a solution. My posts here resulted in zero ideas from anyone else on how to solve it either.

So what I am saying is that even if you cut the right wires, you will likely have this external 800k drive access issue appear. Hearing that motor and seeing that LED flash every few seconds bugged the heck out of me.

Of course, if you connect the HD20 and then connect your 800k drive to that, you won't have the LED/access problem anymore. The reason is because you cannot boot off that 800k drive until you first load a disk into your internal drive! That's the secret catch of using an HD20!

Also, when you use the 800k drive without loading the HD20 init, you can still use the drive just fine. Most sites and books say this cannot be done, but I know first hand it can be done! The catch is that you will hear grinding sounds coming from your 800k drive. It will be a bit slower too. But if you then boot off a floppy with a HD20 init on it, the 800k drive will suddenly stop grinding and access speed will be greatly improved (on the 800k drive).

I am now awaiting delivery of a Mac I bought off EBAY with a 20MB GCC HyperDrive in it! The HyperDrive was the first of its kind in that it allowed you to put a hard disk INSIDE your Mac! That didn't become possible from Apple until the SE.

UPDATE: I found my 800k drive connector photo and uploaded it to Flickr with a detailed description here. I also found a cached version of the detailed thread on this subject, which was sadly deleted when this site went down several weeks ago. Reading through that thread and having a look at my photo should get everyone up to speed.

 

Kallikak

Well-known member
Yes - I remember that thread, and the outcome. :-(

The 128K upgrade is straightforward - you just put in the two 128K ROMs and an 800K drive. That had indeed been done to my machine, but I put 64K roms back in. Nothing is wrong with that, but there is clearly some issue with the drive combinations. I may try the wire cutting exercise and hope I am luckier than JDW, but I can't use the HD 20 init because of only having 128K of RAM.

 

JDW

Well-known member
...hope I am luckier than JDW...
If you are "luckier," please post all the pertinent details in this thread. But I am skeptical if you will be; for that would mean the hardware I have is defective somehow, and I am simply not seeing any other anomalies that would indicate such to be true.

 

JDW

Well-known member
To supplement what I posted above about the external floppy drive LED flashing problem, here is a

showing the LED flashing. The first few seconds of the video shows the LED flashing continually until a disk is inserted. Still curious if there is a way to solve this issue without resorting to 128k ROMs.
 

Mac128

Well-known member
It depends on the drive. See my advanced file transfer tutorial at http://www.Mac128.com

Only one 800K drive can be used as a boot drive. The Apple 3.5" drive made for the Apple IIGS. The original 800K drive made for the MacPlus needs the HD20 Init to be recognized and will actually cause the 400K drive to pulse even with the INIT. But the Apple 3.5 is totally compatible.

 

Scott Baret

Well-known member
Make sure it's NOT a UniDisk 3.5" or else you'll have to modify it a little bit. UniDisks are easy to spot because of their unique eject button and white IIc colour. They're not that common but just in case you find one I suggest you look elsewhere for the aforementioned 3.5" drive.

 

JDW

Well-known member
Scott, I appreciate the tip. However, my drive is not white, nor is it an Apple II compatible UniDisk drive. My 800k external drive is model A9M0106. I have posted a photo of my drive and a detailed commentary on it. You can read that I also disconnected some wires in an attempt to solve the LED flashing problem, but it didn't work.

Mac128, you say the 800k drive could cause the 400k internal drive to pulse, but I never had that problem. Perhaps it is because I disconnected those two wires (as mentioned in my Flickr commentary) on my 800k external. In any case, the only problem I have is that the 800k external LED flashes and it spins the motor when the LED flashes (i.e., "disk access attempt") every few seconds as shown in my video.

 

Mac128

Well-known member
Pina details the pulsing problem clearly, which you describe as regular noises. It is the primary problem with using 800K drives with 64K roms. This is one of the reasons I specifically mention on my website tutorial that your drive is the only one that's compatible with the 64K ROMS. Since the 800K drives don't use the speed control for the 400K drives, all versions are disconnected at the socket head or the cable. Not sure which method is used on the external 800K drives, but cutting wires on your drive would not affect this at all. Most likely the disk access issue you describe is some aspect of the dual purpose the drive served for the Apple II series, i.e. checking the drive for the presence of a disk. On my A9M0106, the drive only exhibits the disk access/flashing light until a disk is inserted somewhere in the system, either internal or external. Then all is normal. Is your problem that when the system is on and no disk are in the drive it exhibits this behavior? If so, what's the problem? Just insert a disk and get on with it. Also, your external 800K drive as you know will boot your Mac and will format a double sided disk to 800K MFS. You don't need the HD20 INIT at all to use two of these 800K drive models to capacity, only to read/write HFS. The HD20 is required on the older 800K drives to even see them. Just so I'm clear ... is the problem you're having related to the pulsing when the external drive is connected, or the external drive itself?

 

JDW

Well-known member
Pina details the pulsing problem clearly...
Indeed. I have the book you speak of and have read it through three times! It was one of several sources I used to determine which wires to cut on my drive.

On my A9M0106, the drive only exhibits the disk access/flashing light until a disk is inserted somewhere in the system, either internal or external. Then all is normal.
Yes, that is correct. You are experiencing exactly what I am. But my pursuit has been to eliminate that LED flash/disk access every few seconds because I don't like it. I want the drive to remain silent until I decide to put a disk in one of the drives. I doubt this drive access will hurt anything, but it bothers me. "Just insert a disk an get on with it" is not a "solution to the problem" in my eyes. I have no other computer that flashes a red light at me and spins a motor every few seconds until a disk is inserted, so I don't care to have this setup do it to me. No doubt, there is a technical reason why this happens, and I am in search of that reason. Because if I know what that is, I can possibility solve it. And again, "just put in a disk" is not a "solution." If anything, "just put in a disk" is a mere bandage that masks the root problem.

You don't need the HD20 INIT at all to use two of these 800K drive models to capacity, only to read/write HFS.
I was actually one of the first to post this on the net quite a long time ago. Until that time, there was a lot of bogus info (and still is) on the net saying you have to have that INIT or you cannot use the drive. That's wrong. You can use the 800k drive without the INIT, but it will make different sounds when accessing the disk. It sort of sounds like grinding noises. I don't think this is a problem at all. It's just the computer treating the drive like a 400k drive instead of an 800k drive. Also, without the INIT the speed is a bit slower too. With the HD20 INIT (or 128k ROMs), the 800k drive read/write speed accelerates tremendously (and there are no grinding noises either). I would refer you to my original post on this subject, but alas it was on this forum prior to the hard drive crash. That thread has been completely deleted.

 

tomlee59

Well-known member
JDW's post of long ago was the very first time I ever saw this information. I have yet to update my own docs to reflect it, but I'll get around to it someday...Maybe those posts live on somewhere, but I haven't hunted them down yet.

 

Mac128

Well-known member
First I would refer you to this if you have not read it: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=1605

Pina's Macintosh Repair & Upgrade book is invaluable to the old Mac user. However, it is often unclear and contradictory to published Apple info (not unusual since Apple often contradicted itself). In particular I would ask you to re-read Pina's statement about the speed signal in the last paragraph of page 193. Like many statements he makes in the book you really have to read it several times to understand why he's saying it. However, he gives this info so you won't mix up your internal drives and cables. I'm afraid you mis-interpreted this to mean you had to physically cut wires on your drive, which already had taken Pina's observation into account. Besides, Pina's advice is for internal drives and as you know the external pin-outs are completely different.

That said, it might be worth a look at the Apple IIGS 800K floppy controller pin-outs to see if there is a signal line that might be cut which would prevent the LED flashing and disk access.

Now, as to your problem ... thank you for clarifying. You mention in your initial post that the internal drive "pulses". So I wasn't sure which problem you were trying to fix. Frankly the flashing LED is the least of your problems since that goes away after the system is in use and the pulsing does not (at least with an 800K internal drive, the 400K works fine) ... so much for a quiet system. This is on of those things that I shake my head at because I know what you are saying. It bothers me too, like dust under the refrigerator. Frankly (and I mean no offense here), but the time the Mac is on without a system disk working is so brief as to be a negligible issue ... particularly when you consider the following:

What you and I are both doing is a HACK. PERIOD. The 800K drives may well work with the 128K (and indeed Apple intended this from the beginning when the double sided drives became available, but their strategy changed when they created HFS), BUT once Apple changed to HFS, they made no attempt to make them compatible with the 64K ROMs without the HD20 INIT and HFS support. For whatever reason the A9M0106 and MFD-51W-03 drive doesn't care, possibly to enable compatibility with the Apple II. Notice Apple says specifically NOT to put the older drives in the A9M0106 external enclosure. Therefore, AS A HACK, you are using something that is not designed to be compatible with your system and therefore is likely to do lots of things that bothers you. I personally have banged my head against a wall simply because I wanted something to work in a manner in which it was never designed to work, simply because it bothered me. That said, certainly Apple must have known the A9M0106 worked without the HD20 with 64K ROMs (as well as the MFD-51W-03 drive). Since very little is known about the exact release dates and discontinuation of the external drives or the rational behind Apple's design, it has been assumed Apple intended the A9M0106 as a universal replacement for all of their previous 400K & 800K drives and as such, an original 128K/512K Mac which still needed a 400K drive could buy it as a replacement external with an eye toward upgrading in the future. If so, they must have also known the LED would flash and drive accessed until a system disk was inserted with or without the HD20 INIT. And just so you know ... when the A9M0106 is used with a Mac Plus, the LED flashes once upon startup as it is being accessed by the Plus looking for a startup disk – the difference obviously being that the 128K ROM knows how to handle the drive response and patiently waits. With that in mind, I doubt cutting any cable will stop the problem without rendering the disk useless. All in all the continual disk access at startup is a small trade off for use with the 64K ROM.

I do hope you find a solution, however unlikely and I must admit your post has peaked my curiosity about testing various combos of my external drives with my 128K to get to the bottom of not only the flashing LED but also the pulsing, which Pina himself fails to explain (I mean really, if the speed control is already isolated from the drives, then why do they pulse?).

Finally, I am thrilled you are helping to clarify the mis-information on the web. I am certainly not looking to take credit as discovering this, or certainly overshadow your accomplishments ... if anybody deserves the credit it's Larry Pina! My goal is to clarify the mis-information and to make working with an old Mac in an Intel world easier for the Mac enthusiast. Particularly when it comes to pre-system 6 and MFS systems. I will not state anything that I myself have not tested. That said, I must tell you that while this 800K drive works without the HD20 INIT, the actual 800K External Drive M0131, sold for the 512K & Mac Plus will NOT work. Also, on a 64K ROM system, you CANNOT use HFS formatted anything without the HD20 INIT which will not load on a 128K. On a 512K, even with your drive, you must have the HD20 Init in order to write HFS formatted disks with a System 2.1 or later. System 2.0 and earlier will write MFS ONLY with or without the INIT. So, be very careful about saying a thing is right or wrong unless you've tested it personally. Also, your posts seem to indicate that you are limited to 400K without the HD20 Init. on your drive and that's how mis-information gets around.

In any event I look forward to your future discoveries ... happy hacking!

 

tomlee59

Well-known member
I'm afraid you mis-interpreted this to mean you had to physically cut wires on your drive, which already had taken Pina's observation into account. Besides, Pina's advice is for internal drives and as you know the external pin-outs are completely different.
I don't think JDW misinterpreted it. You actually *do* have to cut one or more connections on the ribbon cable in some cases. Late-run drives evidently (re)used the pins for other functions. So, if you had an original ribbon cable, but a late-model drive, it could misbehave badly (e.g., pulsing; eject motor stuck on, etc.). I've observed this problem first-hand.

Yes, it would be equally effective to cut the traces on the drive itself, rather than playing with the ribbon cable. Personally, I prefer mucking about with easy-to-replace ribbon cable than with the drives proper.

 
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