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SE/30 logicboard recreation


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Although they'll be expensive initially, microLED might be the best option going forward.

 

@claanu What I think would be fantastic, would be a kit that includes the following:

 

Real glass window + black shroud/bezel

4:3 or 5:4 LCD high pixel density panel (like something from an iPad 2 or newer)

TTL converter board with DisplayPort, HDMI, and/or LVDS (perhaps also VGA pass-through)

 

Kit would let you replace a (preferably bad) CRT with real glass, plus a black foam or rubber shroud that prevents light blead while still allowing a flat LCD to lay against the glass as close as possible.  The LCD would connect to a TTL converter board that takes the TTL signal direct from the Mac and outputs it to a high pixel density LCD panel.  If it's something at least as good as an iPad 2, then you should notice any scaling artifacts, and it should be crystal clear.

 

I have a TTL converter board I bought that's supposed to be used with arcade machines, but I bought an adapter a while back that let me use said TTL converter to convert the digital signal from a IIgs and talk to a VGA monitor.  I might give it a go on my 512k just to see if it works.  Might not have to reinvent the wheel with the TTL board.

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20 hours ago, techknight said:

Went to order up some chips on UT Source to make one of these, turns out someones already scalped al the SWIMs and other things Basically leaving me in the dark. 

 

Wheeeeee


Which part numbers are you looking up? I can still see SWIMs on there.

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21 hours ago, joshc said:


Which part numbers are you looking up? I can still see SWIMs on there.

 

Yeap they show up, but if you try to order or inqury, No stock. I honestly dont know why companies and parts houses do this. probably on purpose so their site can be "discovered" in a search. Drive traffic. 

Edited by techknight
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@codyNC90 Only the GLUE is unique to the SE/30.  It's fairly easy to implement the logic for a replacement, the main problem is that it is impossible to buy a modern CPLD/FPGA that operates directly at 5 volts and has enough pins, so supporting adapter junk is required to surround the primary logic, and that in turn can interfere with PDS expansion cards if stacked vertically.

 

Also, only the GLUE needs trivial modifications to increase CPU & RAM bus speed, assuming you want to keep all low-speed peripherals as-is.

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@Bolle

I see a lot of "kudos!" and "sign me up for 2!" posts in this thread which raises the question about price & availability.  Would you be willing to open that info to us?

 

Next, you said we would need a parts donor board (stock SE/30 motherboard), which goes without saying.  But some people will have the ability to desolder and resolder on their own while others will not.  So knowing if a "board population service" will be offered could be helpful info too.

 

Lastly, I discovered recently that 1 of the 2 boards you kindly repaired for me is on the fritz again (tantalum recapped, socketed CPU), is now locking up several minutes after cold-boot, which doesn't happen on my other SE/30 boards.  Now that you have a replacement board design, I am thinking the root problems with that board may all be solved by a component move to one of your pristine motherboards.  That is why having pricing, availability and soldering service info would be very helpful and appreciated.  I fully understand you are busy, so just whenever you have the time.  I am posting this in the open forum since the info benefits everyone and there's nothing that I need to hide in a PM.

 

Thank you!

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Posted (edited)

I will be done with reworking the quirks of the first revision. Once that's it done I'll create a second fork of the board with through hole sockets for the two large PLCC ICs. (68882 and GLUE)

Sockets are going to be problematic, because most of the time the old parts you pull off a board will have corrosion and make very bad contact in a spring loaded socket.

Having two board versions you can choose if you want it to be easier to solder (because through hole sockets) but with the tradeoff of possibly having to go through extensively reconditioning the ICs.

Going for through hole sockets will require some re-routing in two of the more crowded areas of the board.

 

Feature-wise everything has been tested on the repro board and is confirmed working so one major step is taken there.

The board still is used nearly every day.

 

After the second revision is done I'll just post the gerbers for each version (socketed and non-socketed).

You'll have to order your own boards and populate them on your own. I am not going to offer a population/replacement service.

 

@joshc is working on putting together a BOM for completeness sake. It does make sense though to take over the passives on the back of the board and a few of the weirder parts... the ferrite/choke thingy for audio comes to mind for example.

 

 

Stretch goal for me in the far far future: maybe start working on the GLUE.

Edited by Bolle
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Posted (edited)

I have produced a BOM for the SE/30 logic board:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CAzGjHxQaQrduQC-hQ8sB2I6Y56fUlCWdJMCUDho0NE/edit?usp=sharing
 

As Bolle said, it makes sense to take most components from your donor board, including all the passives on the back of the board.
 

Certain components will be easier to buy new rather than salvage from a donor board, for two reasons:
 

1) Some components are tedious to remove from a donor board, especially without the right equipment. An example is the PDS connector.

2) Some components on your donor board may be damaged. Thankfully, a lot of parts can be ordered new.

The BOM will make it easy to identify what you need to order, if you wish to do so.

 

I could not find the right SMD part on Mouser to replace D1/D2 with, but it is 1N914/4148 in package SOT23.

 

There are still a few things missing. I do not currently have a way of measuring the ferrite beads used on the board. These are at board locations L22, L10, L9, L8, L14, L13, L12, L15, L11, L20, L19, L18. If someone knows what they should be, please let me know.
 

The inductor coil (ferrite/choke?) at L2 is a bit of a mystery part - again please shout if you think you know what should be used instead.

 

There might be errors/mistakes. Feel free to look at the BOM and then respond to this thread with your comments. I will happily correct any errors or add other information people think may be useful.

 

Edited by joshc
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Just out of curiosity, suppose someone clones the SWIM chip; would it be possible to allow daisy chaining on a Mac with a modified SWIM like it does on the Apple IIgs?  Or is the Apple IIgs fundamentally different in how it interacts the floppy drives, making that type of behavior not possible on a Mac?

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This is both on topic and off topic:

regarding the SWIM chips:

There has to be something we can do about scalpers.  They are causing this hobby to be out of my affordable price range, and I imagine that is so for a number of other people here.  SE/30s on ebay for hundreds of dollars when they used to be $40 or $50 ea. is insane.  $90 for a microchip?  I feel like the more we communicate about our hobby via YouTube, making videos and such, the more the scalpers know what to invest their money in to rip us off.  There's got to be a way for us to be able to enjoy our hobby without a vintage mac costing as much as my rent.

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Once we have the schematics, reverse-engineer ASICs/PALs, then making a board with modern parts should be easy enough, honestly.  I'm happy to help facilitate that happening.  But I lack the skills to reverse-engineer custom chips.  

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20 hours ago, TheMacCollector said:

SE/30s on ebay for hundreds of dollars when they used to be $40 or $50 ea. is insane.

 

Well, as things become more scarce over time they become investments and that means they go up in value. This is not unique to the SE/30, or even to computers. It is applicable to pretty much every material thing in existence. If scarcity and demand are both high, then prices will be high accordingly. The last time an SE/30 was worth $50 is quite a long time ago now.

 

20 hours ago, TheMacCollector said:

There's got to be a way for us to be able to enjoy our hobby without a vintage mac costing as much as my rent.


There are options. Non-working SE/30s do come up for low prices, you just have to be patient and look out for them. Performa and LC models still fetch low prices, and some of them are decent machines IMO. Performa/LC 475 is a good one to look out for, very capable 68K and they fetch a lot less than the SE/30. I don't mind 6xxx machines but most people will tell you to steer clear of 6200/6300s and go for a 6360 instead, but any of those are cheap to get.

 

20 hours ago, TheMacCollector said:

the more the scalpers know what to invest their money in to rip us off.

 

I think the issue of scalpers is being blown out of proportion. There is 1 seller on eBay trying to sell SWIM chips for $90 a pop. I don't see any other Apple chips from the SE/30 on eBay, this doesn't seem widespread.

 

Anyway, I don't think we should divert from the core topic of this thread much more - let's await the gerber file for the SE/30 logic board and go from there shall we... the original intention was to recreate the logic board for those with donor boards (likely damaged by leaking batteries/capacitors), not as a solution for those looking to build a brand new board with all new parts.

 

As I said in another thread, I think it's fair to say we will get there eventually (brand new boards with all new parts), but that will take time.

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On 4/9/2021 at 10:38 PM, joshc said:

 

Well, as things become more scarce over time they become investments and that means they go up in value. This is not unique to the SE/30, or even to computers. It is applicable to pretty much every material thing in existence. If scarcity and demand are both high, then prices will be high accordingly. The last time an SE/30 was worth $50 is quite a long time ago now.

 


There are options. Non-working SE/30s do come up for low prices, you just have to be patient and look out for them. Performa and LC models still fetch low prices, and some of them are decent machines IMO. Performa/LC 475 is a good one to look out for, very capable 68K and they fetch a lot less than the SE/30. I don't mind 6xxx machines but most people will tell you to steer clear of 6200/6300s and go for a 6360 instead, but any of those are cheap to get.

 

 

I think the issue of scalpers is being blown out of proportion. There is 1 seller on eBay trying to sell SWIM chips for $90 a pop. I don't see any other Apple chips from the SE/30 on eBay, this doesn't seem widespread.

 

Anyway, I don't think we should divert from the core topic of this thread much more - let's await the gerber file for the SE/30 logic board and go from there shall we... the original intention was to recreate the logic board for those with donor boards (likely damaged by leaking batteries/capacitors), not as a solution for those looking to build a brand new board with all new parts.

 

As I said in another thread, I think it's fair to say we will get there eventually (brand new boards with all new parts), but that will take time.

 

in my case, i "borrowed" ICs from my 2 battery bombed boards to fix others. Thats why i was bringing it up. 

 

Anyways... I found some 343S0061 versions, but i dont know if they are cross-compatible but i picked them up anyways. 

Edited by techknight
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On 4/12/2021 at 4:36 AM, techknight said:

I found some 343S0061 versions, but i dont know if they are cross-compatible

 

It will be interesting to hear back on this... 

 

According to this:

- http://mess.redump.net/mess/driver_info/mac_technical_notes?s[]=mac&s[]=technical

...the "343" is a SWIM, but used in the Apple ][ 3.5" disk controller. 

 

I picked up two of these as well when considering upgrading my Mac II to HD floppies, only to discover they weren't the right "flavor" SWIM chip... I'd wrongly assumed all SWIMs were created equal... :angry:

 

I was also chatting with @keropi6k6 who may be in need of a SWIM for his 'board... so let us know what you find out!

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On 4/12/2021 at 8:57 AM, mg.man said:

 

It will be interesting to hear back on this... 

 

According to this:

- http://mess.redump.net/mess/driver_info/mac_technical_notes?s[]=mac&s[]=technical

...the "343" is a SWIM, but used in the Apple ][ 3.5" disk controller. 

 

I picked up two of these as well when considering upgrading my Mac II to HD floppies, only to discover they weren't the right "flavor" SWIM chip... I'd wrongly assumed all SWIMs were created equal... :angry:

 

I was also chatting with @keropi6k6 who may be in need of a SWIM for his 'board... so let us know what you find out!

 

Ah damnit. if it didnt work for you, its not going to work for me either. I wonder if its a pinout difference. 

Edited by techknight
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20 hours ago, techknight said:

if it didnt work for you

 

Sorry, should have been more specific...

 

I wasn't able to try the "343" because the II uses an IWM with a lower pin count PLCC package...  it was a physical limit I hit...  The "343" does come in the same pin-count PLCC as the SE/30... hence my interest! 

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19 hours ago, mg.man said:

 

Sorry, should have been more specific...

 

I wasn't able to try the "343" because the II uses an IWM with a lower pin count PLCC package...  it was a physical limit I hit...  The "343" does come in the same pin-count PLCC as the SE/30... hence my interest! 

 

Ohhhh ok. now i understand. Yea, the IIx uses that weird chip. I think i also have a spare one of those, somewhere... i have a mac II board battery bombed. 

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