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Hi, I'm restoring a Powerbook 190 that boots with power supply. 

 

Of course, battery is dead so I decided to reconstruct it, but before to buy the 12 Ni-MH batteries I checked if the PB works with a power supply connected to the battery pins (1 and 5). Unfortunately the PB doesn't starts. 

Moreover, while the PB is on, I checked also voltage to the battery connector (in the PB) and I found 
Pin 5 - GND
Pin 4 - 5V
Pin 3 - GND
Pin 2 - 4.34V
Pin 1 - 1.6V

 

I expected about +12V on pin 1-5 but not sure.

 

- Anybody knows the expected voltages on such pins?
- Any idea about why the PB doesn't start with an external power supply in place of the battery?

 

Thanks in advance.

Foto 14-03-21, 11 54 55.jpg

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I can't find any reference to the appropriate voltage at each pin, even in the official service manual.

However, these are smart batteries. Without a connection to the intelligent controller in the battery, the PowerBook might not send the maximum recharge voltage down the line. There's also the possibility that the PowerBook 190 won't boot from a battery unless it can communicate with that controller. I seem to remember running into some sort of similar problem with my PowerBook 540 while tackling a rebuild of its 1st generation intelligent batteries; but it's been too long for me to remember.

Edited by ian1035nr
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21 hours ago, ian1035nr said:

I can't find any reference to the appropriate voltage at each pin, even in the official service manual.

However, these are smart batteries. Without a connection to the intelligent controller in the battery, the PowerBook might not send the maximum recharge voltage down the line. There's also the possibility that the PowerBook 190 won't boot from a battery unless it can communicate with that controller. I seem to remember running into some sort of similar problem with my PowerBook 540 while tackling a rebuild of its 1st generation intelligent batteries; but it's been too long for me to remember.

Thanks Ian, that's interesting, in fact i found, inside the battery, a DS2401 Silicon Serial Number chip (more similar to a transistor) but completely corroded, so no idea how it was connected. 

The schematic would be resolutive at this point.....

 

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I found a thread with someone who had to replace that same part
 

 

There's also another thread by a user who attempted a 5300-series battery rebuild (the 190 uses the exact same battery) and they had this photo posted:

 

5300BatHacked_3.2p.jpg

 

I believe that little black square connected across the 2 pins is the DS2401 that you found loose in your battery

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On 3/16/2021 at 9:24 AM, ian1035nr said:

I found a thread with someone who had to replace that same part
 

 

There's also another thread by a user who attempted a 5300-series battery rebuild (the 190 uses the exact same battery) and they had this photo posted:

 

5300BatHacked_3.2p.jpg

 

I believe that little black square connected across the 2 pins is the DS2401 that you found loose in your battery

 

Hi Ian, i read the first thread and it makes clear many things but missed the second one and.. wow.....the pict is exactly what I needed :-). So thank you very much for your hint! :) 

In fact it shows my situation and how to connect the DS2401, my only problem now is that 2 pins of my DS2401 are corroded so I need to work it with the dremel in order to solder them to a wire. Then I'll simulate the battery presence and check if the power controller wakes up for boot and charging.

 

I'll post progress updates here!

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, doctormistral said:

In fact it shows my situation and how to connect the DS2401, my only problem now is that 2 pins of my DS2401 are corroded so I need to work it with the dremel in order to solder them to a wire. Then I'll simulate the battery presence and check if the power controller wakes up for boot and charging.

Hopefully you can expose enough pin to connect it back up to the circuit

From the looks of things, all it does is provide a unique, 64-bit ID; which I assume the PowerBook itself uses to keep track of each battery and whatever values it stores for them. So if your DS2401 is fried, I don't see why another one couldn't be swapped in. The product datasheet I found says an ID is burned into it from the factory; so it should be plug 'n' play.

 

If this doesn't pan out, the only other thing I could think of that might be wrong is the electrolytic capacitors on the charging board. At this age, they could very well have exceeded their useful life. Being subjected to leaky battery acid probably didn't help with longevity, either.

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On 3/16/2021 at 4:28 PM, stormy said:

Your photo of the battery pins shows a lot of corrosion, make sure to give it a good wash in lemon juice and white vinegar. Check my 190 restore thread to see what I did:

 

 

 

Very nice restoring, me too I'm restoring a PB190 but I decided upgrade it replacing the old (corroded) grayscale display with a 190cs display :) 

Just a question: where did you get the battery connector for the mother board?

 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/16/2021 at 4:42 PM, ian1035nr said:

Hopefully you can expose enough pin to connect it back up to the circuit

From the looks of things, all it does is provide a unique, 64-bit ID; which I assume the PowerBook itself uses to keep track of each battery and whatever values it stores for them. So if your DS2401 is fried, I don't see why another one couldn't be swapped in. The product datasheet I found says an ID is burned into it from the factory; so it should be plug 'n' play.

 

If this doesn't pan out, the only other thing I could think of that might be wrong is the electrolytic capacitors on the charging board. At this age, they could very well have exceeded their useful life. Being subjected to leaky battery acid probably didn't help with longevity, either.

 

I've been able to restore the DS2401 and connect it according to the picture above, now I get >22 V without any battery.

But connecting a power supply (simulating batteries) still does not boot.

 

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Edited by doctormistral
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Hmmm, well, at least that’s some kind of improvement. 
 

Just to confirm, you’re supplying 14 volts to the battery terminals? At least, I think that’s the maximum voltage of the original battery. 
 

Other than that, the only thing I can think of is bad capacitors in the power circuit. 
 

Do you have a cheap NiMH battery pack lying around, like one of those 9.6V packs from an RC car?

 

I’d be interested to see what happens if you turn the PowerBook on with both the AC adapter and the battery pack connected, then remove the AC adapter. I’ve had some old laptops that would continue to run like this; even if they wouldn’t initially start up from just the battery. 

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20 hours ago, doctormistral said:

 

Very nice restoring, me too I'm restoring a PB190 but I decided upgrade it replacing the old (corroded) grayscale display with a 190cs display :) 

Just a question: where did you get the battery connector for the mother board?

 

I got it from mouser, if I find the part number I'll let you know. To be honest it's probably not a sufficient connector replacement but the dimensions are quite similar. I didn't rebuild the battery but in its space I fitted an AC wireless adaptor and installed Macwifi so it can connect to modern wireless internet instead. By the way I think you will most likely need to recap the power section like I did, the battery acid is underneath the originals, so if you don't replace them the machine will rot away.

Edited by stormy
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19 hours ago, ian1035nr said:

Hmmm, well, at least that’s some kind of improvement. 
 

Just to confirm, you’re supplying 14 volts to the battery terminals? At least, I think that’s the maximum voltage of the original battery. 
 

Other than that, the only thing I can think of is bad capacitors in the power circuit. 
 

Do you have a cheap NiMH battery pack lying around, like one of those 9.6V packs from an RC car?

 

I’d be interested to see what happens if you turn the PowerBook on with both the AC adapter and the battery pack connected, then remove the AC adapter. I’ve had some old laptops that would continue to run like this; even if they wouldn’t initially start up from just the battery. 

 

Yes 14Volts. No battery pack around. Capacitors seem good, I checked a couple of them with a capacimeter and they are fine.

Detaching the PB AC Adapter the PB turns off after a second, while when both (PB AC Adapter & Battery AC Adapter) are connected battery icon shows in charge.

 

Foto 17-03-21, 21 29 21.jpg

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19 hours ago, stormy said:

I got it from mouser, if I find the part number I'll let you know. To be honest it's probably not a sufficient connector replacement but the dimensions are quite similar. I didn't rebuild the battery but in its space I fitted an AC wireless adaptor and installed Macwifi so it can connect to modern wireless internet instead. By the way I think you will most likely need to recap the power section like I did, the battery acid is underneath the originals, so if you don't replace them the machine will rot away.

 

Capacitors look good, I checked a couple of them with a capacimeter and they are ok. But yes next step could be replacing all them.

Fortunately I kept the battery apart from the pb so all the stuff and the board are ok a part the original screen that was completely exhausted.

What is macwifi? I was thinking to retrieve a PCMCI card somewhere to get the wifi.

 

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The only thing that could be left that I can think of is the capacitors. Even though the ones you tested had the proper capacitance value, one bad cap elsewhere on the circuit can bring down the whole lot. 
 

There’s also the matter of the ESR values which could be completely out of wack. I’ve had good success fixing a lot of misbehaving computers by recapping them, even of the original caps tested good and showed no signs of leaking. 
 

Best case scenario: this fixes everything and the laptop will power on from a battery again

 

Worst case scenario: It doesn’t fix the problem, but it prevents those caps from leaking electrolytes on the board which can cause some very destructive short circuits 

Edited by ian1035nr
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On 3/16/2021 at 9:24 AM, ian1035nr said:

I found a thread with someone who had to replace that same part
 

 

There's also another thread by a user who attempted a 5300-series battery rebuild (the 190 uses the exact same battery) and they had this photo posted:

 

5300BatHacked_3.2p.jpg

 

I believe that little black square connected across the 2 pins is the DS2401 that you found loose in your battery

 

Ian, could you please tell me the post where this photo comes from?

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No problem 

 

The photos on that thread a bit hard to see

 

 But, it looks like the leftmost pin on the DS2401 goes to pin #3 on the battery. Then, the middle pin on the DS2401 goes to pin #2 on the battery. The rightmost pin doesn’t appear to be connected to anything. 
 

Is that how you wired up the DS2401 on your own battery?

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19 hours ago, ian1035nr said:

No problem 

 

The photos on that thread a bit hard to see

 

 But, it looks like the leftmost pin on the DS2401 goes to pin #3 on the battery. Then, the middle pin on the DS2401 goes to pin #2 on the battery. The rightmost pin doesn’t appear to be connected to anything. 
 

Is that how you wired up the DS2401 on your own battery?

 

I think so, the rightmost pin is not connected at all, according to specs https://datasheets.maximintegrated.com/en/ds/DS2401.pdf.

I think the DS2401 is fine. the problem the PB does not boot from battery could be due to the capacitors on board or maybe simulating the battery with an AC Adapter does not work for some reason.

Need to do more tests.....

 

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19 hours ago, doctormistral said:

 

I think so, the rightmost pin is not connected at all, according to specs https://datasheets.maximintegrated.com/en/ds/DS2401.pdf.

I think the DS2401 is fine. the problem the PB does not boot from battery could be due to the capacitors on board or maybe simulating the battery with an AC Adapter does not work for some reason.

Need to do more tests.....

 

My own experience would lean me toward the caps. Because the correct solution always ends up being whatever’s the most time consuming. 
 

The only last thing I can suggest is that you connect the power supply directly to the pins on the motherboard’s battery connector. Leave the tray with the DS2401 in place so the system thinks there’s a battery 

 

But send the juice directly into the power circuit. Just to rule out some sort of issue with the battery contacts 

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20 hours ago, ian1035nr said:

My own experience would lean me toward the caps. Because the correct solution always ends up being whatever’s the most time consuming. 
 

The only last thing I can suggest is that you connect the power supply directly to the pins on the motherboard’s battery connector. Leave the tray with the DS2401 in place so the system thinks there’s a battery 

 

But send the juice directly into the power circuit. Just to rule out some sort of issue with the battery contacts 

Recap: sending current directly to the board the PB does not recognize the battery, while sending current from the battery the PB thinks there is a battery and starts charging it... so the DS2401 I think its working. In any case It does not boot from battery side, only with its AC Adapter.

I need to test with real batteries before recap..... :) 

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Posted (edited)

Just recapped the power controller but still the powerbook doesn't start from battery, even using a real 12.5V external battery.

The strange thing is that there is no current draw once the battery is connected, it seems detached but on the other hand it seems recognized (icon on the menu bar).

Actually the PRAM battery that is not fully operational (I'm going to replace it), could the boot problem depend on the PROM battery??

 

Foto 22-03-21, 19 34 49.jpg

Edited by doctormistral
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  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

Hi, update. I've just replaced the PRAM battery that does its job but the PB190 does not boot from battery. Booting from power supply and then detaching it, the PB shut down after a few seconds.

 

Recap:

  • replaced caps on power controller in the main board 
  • replaced pram battery
  • rebuilt the DS2401 (battery is recognized also fro the "regenerate battery" app)
  • Using an external power supply to emulate the batteries at ~14V 
  • Resetted PRAM
  • The PB190 doesn't boot without power supply.

 

In the following video, the PB is connected to its power supply and battery to another power supply

  • Battery is emulated with a EXternal power supply at 14V
  • Boot the PB
  • I read +23V at the battery pins (this voltage comes from the PB)
  • Detach PB power supply
  • After a wile the battery icon shows battery power goes down and PB shuts down
  • I read ~14V @ battery pins (that is the EX power supply)

@ian1035nr @stormy Thanks for any ideas about why this happens :) 

 

 

 

Edited by doctormistral
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