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PPC740L G3 CPU Daughterboard For Blackbird Powerbooks


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Nice, very glad to hear that you may have found a loophole in the documentation!

 

Curiosity got the better of me. ::) Earlier I saw the upper 16bits of the Data Bus on the Modem Connector and  .  .  .

 

.  .  .  only the upper 16 Data Bits are on the Modem Connector. Should have known better, working from the bottom up the Modem Specific lines clued me in to inadequate pincount. :-/ For the time being I'll assume it's the lower 16 bits on the System Interconnect? The Modem Card and CPU card wouldn't be on the same plane would they, with equal connector heights making board to board spacing equal?

 

45    DATA[16]
44    DATA[17]
47    DATA[18]
46    DATA[19]
49    DATA[20]
48    DATA[21]
51    DATA[22]
52    DATA[23]
53    DATA[24]
54    DATA[25]
57    DATA[26]
56    DATA[27]
59    DATA[28]
58    DATA[29]
61    DATA[30]
60    DATA[31]

 

Full 32bit Address Bus


 1     ADDR[0]
 4     ADDR[1]
 3     ADDR[2]
 6     ADDR[3]
 5     ADDR[4]
 7     ADDR[5]
 9     ADDR[6]
10    ADDR[7]
11    ADDR[8]
12    ADDR[9]
13    ADDR[10]
16    ADDR[11]
15    ADDR[12]
18    ADDR[13]
17    ADDR[14]
20    ADDR[15]
21    ADDR[16]
22    ADDR[17]
23    ADDR[18]
24    ADDR[19]
25    ADDR[20]
28    ADDR[21]
27    ADDR[22]
30    ADDR[23]
29    ADDR[24]
32    ADDR[25]
33    ADDR[26]
34    ADDR[27]
35    ADDR[28]
36    ADDR[29]
37    ADDR[30]
40    ADDR[31]

 

Control Lines

 

39    RW_L    
41    SIZ[0]
42    SIZ[1]
63    DSACK_L[0]    
64    DSACK_L[1]    
65    AS_L
66    DS_L
68    BERR_L
71    BGACK_L
73    IPL_L[0]
75    IPL_L[2]
76    IPL_L[1]

 

WTF?

 

78    SLEEP
80    IO_RESET_L
81    SND_SCLK
80    IO_RESET_L
81    SND_SCLK
83    PDS_POWER_SWOC

 

Obviously Modem Related Signals

 

69    MDM_BR_L
70    MDM_BG_L
72    MDM_BUSCLK
77    MDM_RESET_L
82    MDM_IRQ_L    
85    MDM_TDM[0]
86    MDM_TDM[1]
87    DM_TDM[2]
88    MDM_TDM[3]
91    MDM_DAA[0]
92    MDM_DAA[1]
93    MDM_DAA[2]
94    MDM_DAA[3]
95    MDM_DAA[4]
96    MDM_DAA[5]
97    MDM_RX_P
98    MDM_TX_P
99    MDM_RX_N
100  MDM_TX_N

 

Power, GND and n.c. pins not grouped/posted

 

Wondering which control lines climb down the System Interconnect and if the connector twins are holding a full house?

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini
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Peripheral card developers could get schematics from Apple under NDA. Thats how I obtained the portable schematics which are now public of course. It came from a defunct RAM manufacturer for the portable. 

 

I still have the PALASM documents, and some schematics, etc that I have NOT shared. 

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Well, something terrible has happened. Hopefully it's fixable.

 

I was testing the NuPowr earlier tonight, and whilst installing a RAM module (to see what the capacity is), I got, upon powering it on, this strange, distorted sound that sorta resembles a time-stretched version of the normal bong, with no other signs of life.

 

I've read threads where in cases of, say, an SE/30 behaving similarly (distorted bong /w no other signs of life), some troubleshooting usually pinpoints it either to faulty RAM or to one or more bad traces in the RAM circuits). Hopefully this is the same, and it can be fixed relatively easily.

 

To that end, assuming a bad chip, I wonder if it's possible, while we're at it, to add to the capacity by replacing the stock chips with ones of a higher capacity? Combined, the originals add up to 8 MB. Do the address lines exist to allow for an upgrade to 16 MB? (This notion reminds me somewhat of something  @Trash80toHP_Mini might cook up :lol:)

 

If it's not possible, 40 MB (8 onboard plus 32 MB module) is still plenty :)

 

c

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Do you have other RAM you can try to find out if its the RAM you were testing?

 

Expanding the RAM on the CPU daughterboard is not possible with the daughterboard we are working with due to the limits of the size of the banks and the number of chips necessary per bank. The CPU daughterboard currently has 4 chips, for 8 MB. That is the maximum allowed for 4 chips, and there isn't any room on the board to add more.  If there was more board space, we could expand it further without needing to do any major rewiring, but as it stands we are talking about an entirely new board. That's why the original G3 prototypes needed to have the modem removed, for 24 MB of memory, they had to make the CPU daughterboard so large that it needed the modem space to fit.

 

It should be possible to put 32 MB on the CPU daughterboard, with a new design, to make 64 MB total, which is the maximum the BlackBiird can handle with the PBX type IC that the NuPowr uses on it's daughterboard. 

Edited by Paralel
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On 1/8/2019 at 5:02 AM, Paralel said:

64 MB total, which is the maximum the BlackBiird can handle with the PBX type IC that the NuPowr uses on it's daughterboard. 

You got me going with that one, how about going whole hog and just using a harvested PBX ASIC underneath a G3/RAM CPU card? My guess is that the whole thing would run just fine off 2300c or 1400 ROMs? [}:)]

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46 minutes ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

You got me going with that one, how about going whole hog and just using a harvested PBX ASIC underneath a G3/RAM CPU card? My guess is that the whole thing would run just fine off 2300c or 1400 ROMs? [}:)]

 

Ah, you read my mind! This was "Plan B" in the event that our current "Plan A" failed. Just like you said, expand the CPU daughterboard into the modem space, to fit the extra RAM, bringing it up to 32 MB on the CPU daughterboard, 64 MB total for the BlackBird. It should easily be possible with the space available.

 

The TI PBX on the NuPowr 167 board is literally identical to the one found on the motherboard of the 5300 (and I'm fairly sure, the 1400 as well), down to the Apple assigned part number. So, apparently, the "Pratt" from the BlackBird is fully forward compatible with the the "PBX" from the 5300 and the 1400 (I'm even starting to wonder if PBX actually stands for something like Pratt, revision B, eXtension.)

 

The ROM is the tricky part. I'd really like to dump the ROM that the NuPowr card is using, and compare that to the original High/Low ROM on the 68k CPU daughterboards for the BlackBird. I have a funny feeling its essentially the same between the two. The NuPowr card also has a Xilinx chip that is not too far from the CPU, I've seen it labeled "OF 34" which I am betting is "Open Firmware 3.4" since that would fit the time frame, and the use of Open Firmware with PowerPC systems. If so, one would need to use a High/Low pair of ROM's, as well as read out the contents of that Xilinx chip and either modify it as necessary to program a similar chip or just transplant the actual Xilinx chip onto the new card design.

 

The CPU, RAM, ROM, PBX, & the mysterious Xilinx chip are essentially all the major components to the CPU daughterboard. The rest are simple support chips, voltage regulators, little caps and resistors, etc...

 

I'd really like to see the support chips being used on the G3 upgrades that were made for the 1400. All the images I can find online for G3 Powerbook 1400 upgrades show the support chips covered by stickers, so I can't read what they say.

Edited by Paralel
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Best part of going that route is that I'm heading toward doing the top part of that board for the 1400 already. I've been nibbling away at PBX' connections to the rest of the system since way back when hacks over on 'fritter was the place to be. 1400 (and 2300 by assumption) would be a split bus system. In the 1400 16bits head over to the board interconnect to the T-REX based Card Cage/I/R assembly and the other 16bits head in the opposite direction to the Video Card connector that's sometimes used for a NIC. I found a bit of my diagrammed documentation the other day. When things settle back down around here I'll have a look around the various HDDs and backups to see what I've still got.

 

I'm guessing Blackbird development followed closely along the lines of what had been established in the PowerBook Duo system. The Duo Docking Connector is a "Slot E" 68030 PDS implementation and the DuoDock is a multiple function expansion card at that  Slot Manager location. That would make the Ethernet and Video Out of the Blackbird the equivalent of an Ethernet MiniDock with its own compliment of 512K VRAM with the other 512K dedicated to CSC/LCD. Gotta take a good look at the DevNote when I get a chance, but that looks to me to be the way the Blackbird block diagram is heading.

 

Right now I'm trying to keep things simple. Like maybe prototyping the Slot B riser (and only Slot B for KISS compliance) to verify schematic development of that crazy 6400/6500 riser. ::)

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1 hour ago, Paralel said:

I'd really like to see the support chips being used on the G3 upgrades that were made for the 1400. All the images I can find online for G3 Powerbook 1400 upgrades show the support chips covered by stickers, so I can't read what they say.

I'm not gonna touch the 466MHz/1MB Crescendo PB in Beater, but I've got a slower Sonnet G3 and one from NewerTech IIRC. Those I'll pull stickers from and shoot pictures of to your heart's content. But not gonna open up the 1400 stack storage box again until I finish getting the joint cleared out and a new roommate installed. [;)]

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Well, I think they're all waiting on me at this point, as I have to get my NuPowr (along with a logic board and display) to @Bolle somehow.

 

I believe Plan "A" is to swap a 740L in place of the 603ev that's on there now, and Plan "B" I guess is to fabricate a whole new CPU card with proper support for the 740L?

 

c

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11 hours ago, CC_333 said:

Well, I think they're all waiting on me at this point, as I have to get my NuPowr (along with a logic board and display) to @Bolle somehow.

 

I believe Plan "A" is to swap a 740L in place of the 603ev that's on there now, and Plan "B" I guess is to fabricate a whole new CPU card with proper support for the 740L?

 

c

Yep, Plan A is the one we are working on now with the 740 and the NuPowr card. Plan A is currently looking very strong and promising. If for some reason we don't or can't anticipate a possible failure mode, then Plan B is indeed a whole new CPU daughterboard for the 740, with 32 MB of RAM. But Plan B would be a very long term project (+years) since it would require understanding the entire wiring of the CPU daughterboard and synthesizing a new one from that.

 

On 1/16/2019 at 1:14 AM, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

I'm not gonna touch the 466MHz/1MB Crescendo PB in Beater, but I've got a slower Sonnet G3 and one from NewerTech IIRC. Those I'll pull stickers from and shoot pictures of to your heart's content. But not gonna open up the 1400 stack storage box again until I finish getting the joint cleared out and a new roommate installed. [;)]

Sounds good, I look forward to getting those pics some time in the future.

Edited by Paralel
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41 minutes ago, trag said:

If you go to plan B, you might consider designing for a PPC750GX...

Good point. if we fell back to Plan B, I would probably target the PPC750FX instead since that was used by Apple, but the GX never was, so it's hard to say how difficult it would be to implement the GX without looking at the white papers for both and comparing their requirements.

 

We might also be limited to what the PBX can handle. The G3 upgrades for the PBX based systems was only done with the plain 750. Now whether that is a limitation of the PBX or just what chips were available at the time, it's hard to say. Considering the PBX is essentially a blackbox, it would have to actually be tested to determine if it could work or not.

Edited by Paralel
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Since we're talking about Plan B: we were going over CPU choices in Franklinstein's 601 Proc Swap thread. I found 32,324 of the PPC750FX-GB1033T 733MHz BGA G3 available from AliExpress at $70 per. Trag had found a few different CPUs in small quantities somewhere else at better prices, but I figure availability is key. We're not gonna run out of the 733MHz FX variety anytime soon. The Blackbird and 1400 buses are 33MHz, the FX tops out at 666MHz for either. The bigger cache of the GX would be nice, but ISTR something about the FX being the last version with a simple PLL based clock multiplier setup. So I wonder about GX compatibility?

 

This stuff is more on topic in this thread, so here's the info I've dug up so far:

 

PPC750FX Evaluation Board User’s Manual

PowerPC 750FX Evaluation Kit Quick Setup for Windows

 

Migration from IBM 750FX to MPC7447A

MPC7447: Host Processor - NXP Documents Page

MPC7448 PowerPC® Processor

 

PowerPC 603e RISC Microprocessor Family: PID7t-603e Hardware Specification

PowerPC 603e™ RISC Microprocessor Family: MPC603r (Goldeneye) Part Number Specification

 

 

 

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.  .  .  and the first installment of the pictures I promised:

 

Crescendo_PB_333-1MB-Sldr-a.thumb.JPG.2794f75201265fbec7069d8d2f88cb11.JPG

 

Crescendo_PB_333-1MB-Comp-a.thumb.JPG.c850fa2e774b194647a7fdfea6afa16a.JPG

 

Couldn't resist a quick peek. Nothing of import under the stickers covering the SRAM and it's likely no mystery what's under the sticker topside, so I've left them on for now.

 

I'm thinking my proposed 1400/FX/666 board wouldn't amount to much more than what's on the Cache deprived 117MHz 603e board in the first release. Yours would amount to same with PBX underneath and built-in Max RAM expansion where the cache and controller are on this board.

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini
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7 hours ago, Paralel said:

Good point. if we fell back to Plan B, I would probably target the PPC750FX instead since that was used by Apple, 

 

We might also be limited to what the PBX can handle. 

I don't think there's any functional difference between the fx and the gx interfaces, but I'm not certain.  Is the PBX that big ASIC on the upgrade or CPU cards?

Edited by trag
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PBX is the Bus Bridge ASIC directly underneath the 603e on the solder sides of 5300 and 2300c and in the same place on the solder side of the mobo underneath the 1400's CPU Card connectors.

 

edit: does GX use PLL resistors in hardware for bus multiplier settings like the FX? If it's a later version, sounds like it's software only.

 

Paralel's pics on p.1 of the NewerTech NuPowr 167 MHz:

 

Bottom - NuPowr167.jpg

 

Top-NuPowr167.jpg

 

Looks like you can see the outline of PBX underneath the CPU in the box of vias surrounding it.

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini
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Am I the only one here that has one of these upgrades?

 

It just occurred to me that these things are probably not the most common.

 

Also, if plan A is successful, I also realized that I'll have the only confirmed-to-exist G3-upgraded 540c :)

 

Maybe someone should try and find some schematics for these upgrades so we can replicate them!

 

c

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1 hour ago, CC_333 said:

Am I the only one here that has one of these upgrades?

 

It just occurred to me that these things are probably not the most common.

 

Also, if plan A is successful, I also realized that I'll have the only confirmed-to-exist G3-upgraded 540c :)

 

Maybe someone should try and find some schematics for these upgrades so we can replicate them!

I have a few different upgrades, from the original 100MHz part to the 183MHz version, but they work and I'm not ready to potentially ruin them through experimentation. Maybe if I successfully practice on a few 5500 boards, upgrading them with 300MHz 603es or 740s, I'll take the plunge on the considerably more compact and rarer 5x0 upgrade cards. If anybody has dead versions of the 5x0 upgrade I'll be happy to buy them for a reasonable price. Or dead 6400 boards; I need more high frequency (120MHz+) 603e QFPs for 23/53/1400 series upgrades and the blue epoxy IBM parts that I have are hard to rework.

 

Anyway supposedly the reason Newer didn't bring a 5x0 G3 upgrade to market is that the processor card connectors were discontinued and the molds were destroyed, either because AMP didn't want to keep them around or Apple requested their destruction (I lean toward the former more than the latter, which is a bit too conspiracy theory-ish though not entirely implausible given some of Apple's antics). So the only way Newer would have been able to make these cards would be for people to send their old cards in to have the connectors harvested. This would likely have been pretty expensive, and a good number of people would probably have preferred to keep their old cards as backups or for resale so would have been reluctant to send them off. Maybe if the internet were a bigger thing at the time it would have been easier to advertise and place orders for something like this, but internet shopping was still kind of niche and most people still ordered things out of catalogs so they probably just trashed the whole project because it wasn't viable. Either way, there's no way to get the connectors without destroying old processor cards, so new cards are unlikely to appear unless someone wants to sacrifice a bunch of existing ones. I suppose it's not a huge deal to harvest old cards anymore, seeing as many 5x0 series machines have fallen victim to either destroyed plastics or rotten LCDs.

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I'd go with the the AMP marketing decision theory. The Blackbird's interconnect is a 16bit part given its pin count and it was a 32bit world by the time the G3 was released. The extra 10 pins on the the 1400 interconnect above would have made a significant difference by then, so why bother continuing production for a shrinking market with more capable parts going into production. Even the modem connector a couple of inches away on every Blackbird already had 100 pins at the same time.

 

I'll throw an the engineering decision theory as well to complicate the binary set. The 1400 part is far more robust than the Blackbird interconnect which suggests to me that even if AMP continued to produce an eighty pin part, they would have moved it into the same series as the 1400 form factor. Is the modem connector a 100 pin version of the 1400 interconnect? I put the Blackbird box away for the time being so I can't readily take a peek at a board.

 

For the EvilApple conspiracy theorists I'll make a point that would be more obvious to myself anyway. Apple likely used a part from an obsolescent series with a different height(?) for Modem and CPU interconnects intentionally. Such would make a unified bus processor card bridging both connectors nigh on impossible to implement. THAT would be just like something the denizens of the Infinite Loopiness would do. :P

 

edit: I don't have a Modem in my miscellaneous parts collection for the Blackbirds, can anyone prove or disprove the mismatched connector theory by telling me if the CPU and Modem  circuit boards are on the same plane? Also, if anyone has a spare modem card, I'd like to have one in my grubby little paws for testing the feasibility of a two connector PCB, mismatched or not.

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini
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On 1/15/2019 at 10:07 PM, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

1400 (and 2300 by assumption) would be a split bus system. In the 1400 16bits head over to the board interconnect to the T-REX based Card Cage/I/R assembly and the other 16bits head in the opposite direction to the Video Card connector that's sometimes used for a NIC.

What? That's not how computer busses work.

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18 hours ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

.  .  .  and the first installment of the pictures I promised:

 

Crescendo_PB_333-1MB-Sldr-a.thumb.JPG.2794f75201265fbec7069d8d2f88cb11.JPG

 

Crescendo_PB_333-1MB-Comp-a.thumb.JPG.c850fa2e774b194647a7fdfea6afa16a.JPG

 

Couldn't resist a quick peek. Nothing of import under the stickers covering the SRAM and it's likely no mystery what's under the sticker topside, so I've left them on for now.

 

I'm thinking my proposed 1400/FX/666 board wouldn't amount to much more than what's on the Cache deprived 117MHz 603e board in the first release. Yours would amount to same with PBX underneath and built-in Max RAM expansion where the cache and controller are on this board.

 

What I find fascinating about this board is the lack of PBX ASIC. Is the PBX located on the logic board of the 1400? The developer note for the 1400 don't make it clear where the PBX is located for the 1400.

 

12 hours ago, CC_333 said:

Am I the only one here that has one of these upgrades?

 

It just occurred to me that these things are probably not the most common.

 

Also, if plan A is successful, I also realized that I'll have the only confirmed-to-exist G3-upgraded 540c :)

 

Maybe someone should try and find some schematics for these upgrades so we can replicate them!

 

c

Of the NuPowr upgrades for the BlackBird, the 167 is the most common. There are about 15000 of them that were made and sold. Yours would be the 3rd I've seen

Edited by Paralel
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9 minutes ago, CC_333 said:

15000 is quite a number.

 

But, if we're successful, there will still be exactly *one* such upgrade with a 740L installed [:D]

 

At least, one that we know of....

 

c

Yep, it would indeed be one of a kind.

 

I've looked into it fairly extensively. As far as I know. it has never been done before. The rumors of the Japanese guy appear to be confused with the guy that overclocked his 603.

Edited by Paralel
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How much did you pay for the 740L we will be using for the... experiment?

 

Out of fairness, I should probably pay you for that if the upgrade works, since it will be going on my CPU card....

 

And then my part of the shipping, of course.

 

And Bolle's work?

 

Oh! And for anyone who might be interested, my NuPowr is 100% functional once again. Apparently the malfunction was caused by a bent pin in the RAM socket, which then shorted with an adjacent pin. It's fortunate it didn't fry anything!

 

c

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