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Fitting a SCSI2SD in a 68k Mac


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Yes, I've only ever managed to successfully format a SCSI2SD with Lido. Not sure how other people have managed to use other software such as the patched HD SC Setup. I've tried using it multiple times and it's never fully worked.

 

Enjoy your new faster Mac!

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Hi there

Newbie to these forums. Been using Macs since 2000. Got about 12 different machines in various states of repair. Anyway - I'm in the process of fixing up an old LC 475 for a friend. Hard drive was dead, so I got a rev 5 SCSI2SD card adapter, which is giving me a real headache.

 

I've tried following the tutorial over at the Savage Taylor blog, and successfully got the LC 475 booting in his minimal version of System 7.1. I then tried his tutorial to expand that out to the full version of System 7.3.5 and then 7.5.5 using the floppy disk images you can find online, via Basilisk II - but I haven't been able to get this to work. I have managed to configure Basilisk II on my intel iMac (late 2009, OS X Sierra) to think it's an LC 475, running OS8.1, via a version that was basically already set up for exactly that. I also have a real OS8.1 CD, and have made an ISO. I have a SCSI CD-Rom, but it's a non-Apple drive.

 

I have also seen mention that it's possible to configure your SCSI2SD to have multiple partitions, and have one of those partitions set up as a virtual CD-ROM, and that it should be possible to DD the OS8.1 ISO on the SD card, to then insert that into the SCSI2SD adapter, boot it up and install it to the main partition of the SD Card. As I have a real OS 8.1 CD, and have access to an ISO and can use that setup quite happily in Basilisk, ideally, that's what I'd like to do with the LC 475. But I have no idea how to go about any of that. The information on the Savage Taylor blog isn't particularly clear, and neither are the instruction on the CodersRC page for the SCSI2SD. I'm at my wits end an getting nowhere fast and really need someone to guide me through it.

 

I have access to an old G3 iMac running OS9.2.2, and a USB floppy drive. That also has OS X Panther on it. And I have my Serra iMac too. If anyone could spare some time to give me some detailed instructions, I would be incredibly grateful.

Edited by Zygma_Experiment
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According to Steve on the Savage Taylor blog, I need to copy the minimal System 7 disk image and rename it TempDisk.img, then point Basilisk GUI toward the those two files, as well as set up a Unix Root folder, which gets shared between OS X and Basilisk. That should give me three drive icons on the Basilisk desktop - one for OS 7 drive, one for the Unix drive, and one for the Tempdisk drive. Except, with mine, Tempdisk doesn't retain it's new name - it goes back to the original name, the same as the minimal disk image of System 7.

 

Additionally, I placed the 19 files to install the full version of System 7.5.3 files in the Unix drive. When I tried to launch the Install smi file, Basilisk tells me the file cannot be used, and "I must copy to a Macintosh HFS or Macintosh".

 

So, I thought - seeing as I have a Mac OS 8.1 configuration for Basilisk which works perfectly, why can't I just use the HFV image file from that, and use DD in terminal to copy that to the SD card for SCSI2SD, instead of Steve's minimal version of System 7.1? So, I just pointed the if= part of the DD command to the HFV file from Basilisk. (along with the rest of the commands). Writing all that to the SD card went much quicker, and although the SD card failed to automatically remount as it had before, I could see all the MacOS 8.1 files under OS X. Putting the SD Card in the adapter though, and it fails to boot, just giving me the flashing question mark folder.

 

Dunno where I;m going wrong, and it's driving me up the wall.

 

Edited by Zygma_Experiment
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14 hours ago, Zygma_Experiment said:

Why can't I just use the HFV image file from that, and use DD in terminal to copy that to the SD card for SCSI2SD, instead of Steve's minimal version of System 7.1? So, I just pointed the if= part of the DD command to the HFV file from Basilisk. (along with the rest of the commands).

 

HFV files don't have the mac driver and partition table.  I discuss that on my blog http://www.savagetaylor.com/2018/05/28/setting-up-your-vintage-classic-68k-macintosh-creating-your-own-boot-able-disk-image/. I'm not sure what you mean by the "Unix root folder".   Do you mean the icon pointing to you OS X files?

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21 hours ago, Realitystorm said:

HFV files don't have the mac driver and partition table.  I discuss that on my blog http://www.savagetaylor.com/2018/05/28/setting-up-your-vintage-classic-68k-macintosh-creating-your-own-boot-able-disk-image/. I'm not sure what you mean by the "Unix root folder".   Do you mean the icon pointing to you OS X files?

Hello! 

 

I was following your guide for installing the full version of system 7.5.3 but for me, Basilisk is running on a High Sierra iMac. So, when in your blog you said you should set Basilisk to use the the Windows 'My Computer' s a shared device between Windows and Basilisk, I took the OS X equivalent to meant the Unix Root option. I created a "shared" folder, and pointed Basilisk to that as the Unix Root, which creates a drive on the Basilisk desktop called Unix. Evidently that's not the way to go ;)

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On 10/3/2020 at 9:28 PM, Realitystorm said:

Since you have 8.1 working under basilisk, use that as your primary disk (boot), use mine as the secondary.   Delete the system folder off mine.  Copy the 8.1 system folder over, and run system picker to "bless it".   

It works! Mac OS8.1, running happily. Have installed an ethernet card, so I should be able to transfer software over. Might need to reseat the 32Mb Simm I added, as it doesn't seem to be showing up.

Thanks for your help. Couldn't have done it without the guide on your blog (and a little extra help here).

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Well, it did work. Was going through the hard drive, finding out what was installed and then played a bit of Lemmings. then I got a message onscreen telling me that the Finder couldn't be started, because a particular file couldn't be found and I'd have to restart the Mac from the CD drive by holding down the C key (which as far as I know only works on 'new world' Macs. I couldn't shut down, so I had to power off. Then, I started it up again, and the Mac froze part way through booting, only loading about four extensions. So, I reasoned that must be the problem, and remembered that you can disable extensions to find out what's what. So, I rebooted again, with the shift key held down, which should have disabled them. Then the Mac started displaying a Sad Mac instead. So, I'm back to square one. :(

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

Hello everyone. 
The other day (12/2020), I benchmarked various manufacturers' SD memory cards on my Quadra700 (PPC50Mhz) and FWB JackHammerSCSI with SD2SCSI Version 6:2020. I would like to share the results here. 

I hope this will be helpful for those who are planning to buy SD2SCSI. 
(This text has been translated by Deep-L)

 

Environment 
Quadra700 
MEM:68MB 
SCSI:JackhummerSCSI 
OS:8.1 Japanese 
Purchased SD2SCSI:http://shop.codesrc.com/ 
SD Memory: 32GB
Trancend
Sundisk
KIOXIA(TOSHIBA)
SAMSUNG
MANSA

 

1) About SCSI2SD 
First of all, there is a big difference between the latest V6 and the earlier versions. 
V6: Maximum transfer rate 10MB/s 
V5.5: Maximum transfer rate 1MB/s 
V5.0,5.1: Maximum transfer rate 2.3MB/s~2.6MB/s 

Therefore, if you are buying a new one, V6 is recommended. 

Note: However, if you use the internal SCSI, the SCSI itself is slow.
Performance is the same for both V6 and V5.
We do not know why it is so slow.
Maybe it can be changed by adjusting the settings.

For more information 
http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php/SCSI2SD#Technical_Specifications
for more information. 

 

2) Setup 
First, you will need to set up the 
http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php/SCSI2SD#Download
to download the setup software. 


If you are using V6, be sure to download the V6 software.
Download the latest firmware along with it. 
Windows, OSX, etc. are supported.

 

Connect the PC and SCSI2SD via USB.
After downloading, run scsi2sd-util.
(I did this on a Macbook AIR M1)

 

After launching, the status will be displayed in the lower left corner of the window.
After launching, you will see the status in the bottom left corner of the window, and if it is connected,

 

it will show firmware version 6.3.1.
Let's upgrade the firmware to 6.3.2 first.

If the menu does not respond at this point, click on another application window, and then try again.
If the menu does not respond here, click on another application window and go back to SCSI2SD_util. It should work.

Select FILE>UPGREADFIRMWARE... and select the firmware you downloaded.
Select the firmware you downloaded and update it. It should finish soon.

Go back to the menu.

 

In the "General" tab, I set the following
SCSI Speed Sync, 10MB/s
Startup Delay(second) 0
SCSI Selection Delay 255
Enable Parity : ON
Enable Unit Attention : ON
Enable SCSI2 Mode : ON
Respond to short.... Map LUNS to SCSI...: OFF
Map LUNS to SCSI...: OFF
Enable Blind Writes : OFF

Device1" tab
SCSI : 0
Device : Hard Drive(Defaults)
SD card start sector : 0(Defaults)
AUTO : ON
Sector size : 512 (Defaults)
Device size 2GB

The following settings need to be changed when using APPLE standard formatting software.

I used a third party software.
I left it as it is. (HARD DISK TOOLS Kits, Lido, etc.)
Vendo codesrc(Defaults)
Product SCSI2SD(Defaults)
Revision 6.0(Defaults)
Serial number 1234567812345678(Defaults)

 

Set the "Device2" tab as well, if necessary.
Set the SD card start sector Auto to ON.
The sector count will be automatically set according to the capacity to be allocated.

I tried to set the Deice further, but
In my case, when I set it, the SCSI2SD stopped responding.
This was the same phenomenon even after changing the memory card.
I don't know the cause.

 

When you have finished setting up
FILE>SAVE to Device
and save the settings to the SCSI2SD.
This setting seems to be saved to the SD card. (I guess).
So, if you replace the SD card, you will need to configure it again.

At this point, the drive you have configured is automatically mounted on your PC.
Please unmount it and then unplug the USB cable.

3) Connecting to Macintosh
Connect the drive to the SCSI cable and turn on the switch.
The formatting and OS setup are omitted.
I used a floppy EMU
https://www.bigmessowires.com/shop/product/floppy-emu-model-c/
and formatted it with Lido 7.6.1.

 

4) Benchmark
The following is the data I measured with MacBench 3.0.

 

ーーーーーーー

Disk Tests:

trancent32gb

kioxia

mansa

samsung

sandisk

Power Macintosh 6100/60

 

Disk Mix:

19.5

16.02

15.6

15.24

15.62

10

score

Publishing Disk Mix:

15.72

14.86

14.53

14.06

13.46

10

score

 

trancent32gb

kioxia

mansa

samsung

sandisk

Power Macintosh 6100/60

 

Sequential Read 512:

145

112

106.11

106.57

111.22

141.23

kilobytes/sec

Sequential Read 1K:

259.04

202.38

196.56

194.82

199.71

244.75

kilobytes/sec

Sequential Read 32K:

2570.77

2320.2

2431.79

2432.2

2213.87

2839.59

kilobytes/sec

Sequential Read 64K:

2984.58

2842.24

2933.51

2930.18

2624.18

2838.77

kilobytes/sec

Sequential Read 128K:

3216.92

3124.38

3155.95

3127.23

3036.34

2854.26

kilobytes/sec

Sequential Read 1024K:

3881.62

3681.91

3728.52

3668.93

3447.7

2742.19

kilobytes/sec

 

trancent32gb

kioxia

mansa

samsung

sandisk

Power Macintosh 6100/60

 

Random Read 512:

107.43

87.28

81.12

83.35

84.22

26.31

kilobytes/sec

Random Read 1K:

191.53

157.18

149.19

157.78

147.46

50.95

kilobytes/sec

Random Read 32K:

2455.58

2238.15

2275.87

2295.44

2038.71

1095.93

kilobytes/sec

Random Read 64K:

2963.83

2857.8

2904.47

2922.72

2591.06

1579.79

kilobytes/sec

Random Read 128K:

3295.51

3216.7

3213.15

3224.2

3167.76

2001.97

kilobytes/sec

Random Read 1024K:

4052.4

3829.04

3875.82

3871.85

3687.62

2682.66

kilobytes/sec

 

trancent32gb

kioxia

mansa

samsung

sandisk

Power Macintosh 6100/60

 

Sequential Write 512:

358.67

356.42

350.23

345.36

349.28

344.93

kilobytes/sec

Sequential Write 1K:

543.02

547.97

540.92

528.86

528.68

461.41

kilobytes/sec

Sequential Write 32K:

1869.34

1876.75

1875.13

1577.53

1646.79

1298.84

kilobytes/sec

Sequential Write 64K:

2084.51

2224.46

2238.85

1905.5

2027.37

1784.55

kilobytes/sec

Sequential Write 128K:

2196.51

2254.81

2290.24

1937.72

2079.31

2191.36

kilobytes/sec

Sequential Write 1024K:

2493.99

2671.35

2433.68

2158.85

2386.58

2566.3

kilobytes/sec

 

trancent32gb

kioxia

mansa

samsung

sandisk

Power Macintosh 6100/60

 

Random Write 512:

86.75

70.61

57.48

68.94

75.5

43.45

kilobytes/sec

Random Write 1K:

181.09

164.74

145.13

147.25

165.9

65.01

kilobytes/sec

Random Write 32K:

1722.47

1774.42

1721.24

1647.07

1557.06

1068.41

kilobytes/sec

Random Write 64K:

2065.93

2209.88

1879.95

2077.82

1994.52

1525.85

kilobytes/sec

Random Write 128K:

2235.25

2341.1

1984.36

1949.58

2142.92

1978.69

kilobytes/sec

Random Write 1024K:

2592.2

2735.01

2414.5

2283.68

2441.96

2622.4

kilobytes/sec

ーーーーーーー

 

Thank you !

 

 

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スクリーンショット 2020-12-12 20.03.06.png

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16 minutes ago, miko-Tokyo said:

Hello everyone. 
The other day (12/2020), I benchmarked various manufacturers' SD memory cards on my Quadra700 (PPC50Mhz) and FWB JackHammerSCSI with SD2SCSI Version 6:2020. I would like to share the results here. 

I hope this will be helpful for those who are planning to buy SD2SCSI. 
(This text has been translated by Deep-L)

 

Very thorough! I’ve used the Jackhammer together with SCSI2SD v5.1 in a Quadra 950, but didn’t feel I gained anything with the settings I used compared to the built-in bus. How did you configure the Jackhammer?

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To ktkm

 

Because the maximum transmission rate of V5 is 2.3MB/s. In this case, there is no change in the Jackhammer or internal SCSI. If you want to get faster, you have to buy SCSI2SD of V6. I also bought a new V6 because the first SCSI2SD version .Perhaps in V5, even if it's good, it's only about 1MB/s.

 

——————-

V5(Max2.3MB/s) >>JH(Max20MB/s) >>  500KB/s-1.2MB/s

 

V6(Max10MB/s)>>JH(Max20MB/s) >>3MB/s-10MB/s

———————

 

By the way

 

I got new Quadra700 with Nuvista video card at Jank shop in Akihabara,Tokyo. :-)

 

 

 

C494F4FF-5DF9-496B-8951-C81AACEFB6E0.jpeg

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Can you provide some specifics about the cards you used from each manufacturer? Recognizing that the flash in most SD cards isn't particularly well suited for continuous rewrite and therefore use in an SSD application, I've been using a mix of Samsung's "Endurance" and Sandisk's "Max Endurance" cards in my SCSI2SDs. They supposedly have embedded controllers that shuffle writes across unused NAND like true SSDs do, but specifics from each mfg are limited. I suspect they're slower as a result, but it's a small price to pay for data integrity IMO. Anyway, I'm curious to know what you tested. Thanks!

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7 hours ago, miko-Tokyo said:

Because the maximum transmission rate of V5 is 2.3MB/s. In this case, there is no change in the Jackhammer or internal SCSI. If you want to get faster, you have to buy SCSI2SD of V6. I also bought a new V6 because the first SCSI2SD version .Perhaps in V5, even if it's good, it's only about 1MB/s.


Its about time I get a v6 to throw at the hammer! Thank you for the benchmarks, and good set-up btw. Nice yellow handles on that bubble-wrapped Q700! :-)

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What are the transfer rates and durability of Compact Flash in continuous write/rewrite Mode? Might that ancient medium be better suited in a low cost SSD replacement role in even more ancient Macs for Fast/Narrow SCSI II?

 

Dunno, CF works like a dream in my PCMCIA PowerBooks and Alchemy/Gazelle menagerie on the sloooowwww (if equal to or even a bit better than standard Mac SCSI) first gen Macintosh IDE and PowerBook PCMCIA roles. There is more interesting current tech storage media in the fixed disk role, but the handiness of SD+SCSI seems hard to beat even if beating the snot outta the poor SD Cards.

 

One day I'll break down and try out a V6 on my Fast/Narrow SCSI cards and Macs with the faster bus.

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15 hours ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

Compact Flash

 

There aren't any new-built compact flash adapters being built, and the previous one cost more than a scsi2sd v6 does anyway, and the remaining CF media is either uninspiring or costly.

 

CF itself would be fine for that role, although not really any better than SD, they're very similar types of flash with very similar intended usage scope, and so for random performance and/or long-term longevity, especially with newer and heavier operating systems and workloads, they're going to be about equivalent.

 

If you're asking about what to do for the handful of roles where SD cards are considered to be unsuitable:

 

The handful of people whose needs exceed what an SD card can do have already gotten themselves SCA disks. (johnklos, for example, runs BSD builds on Quadras and the longevity of spinning rust that's compatible with these machines is more suitable to that task, especially given the low speed of beige Macs.)

 

Video, as well, may be a task where you're better off using a period or a newer type of SCSI disk with an adapter.

 

That said, SCSI2SD v6 with a good SD card is pretty good, here were my tests from the 10MB/sec bus on a PowerMac 8600: 

Basically, about 7.5MB/sec read and ~3.8-4.8 MB/sec write. On OS 9.1, it's perfectly fine for day-to-day, but those write numbers are a little bit short of where, say, macworld recommended people be for video on an 8500 back in the '90s. (Granted: for the 8600, you can just... put a SATA Card in, I haven't done that yet because I didn't have one available for it when I did this testing.)

 

 

On 12/12/2020 at 11:26 AM, sutekh said:

Recognizing that the flash in most SD cards isn't particularly well suited for continuous rewrite and therefore use in an SSD application, I've been using a mix of Samsung's "Endurance" and Sandisk's "Max Endurance" cards in my SCSI2SDs.

 

Hmm, what kind of speeds are you getting out of these? I'm presuming it's "good enough", that you keep using them, It's been a long time since I've seen an explicit amount of like, read/write cycles but back in the early 2010s when SSDs were still kind of "new" as a consumer product there was worry about what that would look like, because flash drives from then would kick it after hilariously few rewrites. 

 

I imagine this would be influenced by the way you use your machine and thus far the only reports (that I can remember) of failed SD cards come from the ~5-or-fewer doing really heavy software development on 68k macs.

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2 hours ago, Cory5412 said:

Hmm, what kind of speeds are you getting out of these? I'm presuming it's "good enough", that you keep using them, It's been a long time since I've seen an explicit amount of like, read/write cycles but back in the early 2010s when SSDs were still kind of "new" as a consumer product there was worry about what that would look like, because flash drives from then would kick it after hilariously few rewrites. 

 

I imagine this would be influenced by the way you use your machine and thus far the only reports (that I can remember) of failed SD cards come from the ~5-or-fewer doing really heavy software development on 68k macs.

 

TBH, I haven't benchmarked them owing to the fact that, as you surmised, they're "good enough", but I was encouraged to see the Samsung Endurance included in @miko-Tokyo's comparison. While certainly not the front-runner, it's adequate by my SCSI-1 equipped gear's standards and only really falls behind the rest of the pack in random / sequential writes. That would make sense too if those writes are being buffered through a controller with some sort of algorithmic re-mapper or because the "endurance" line uses something like V-NAND vs. MLC. Aside from a higher published MTBF, details about what these cards do and how is limited.

I'll say this though, I've had a number of SD cards fail over the years personally and professionally in high P/E I/O applications, and the virtual memory I regularly use on say, for instance, my 14MB physical capped PB 180c definitely qualifies as high P/E I/O. Times change, flash has gotten better, and I'm probably still jaded by some of the scars I bear from the era you mention, but a few extra $$$ for a more reliable card with a write-speed penalty that doesn't even matter on a SCSI bus too slow to notice seems a small price to pay for data integrity.

A good friend of mine was a hardware engineer at FusionIO (early SSD market leader and now part of SanDisk) for many years, and his anecdotal, unspecific so as not to violate any NDA indication was that their SSDs were built with several times the presented maximum capacity, and the "secret sauce" was really their software algorithms that predicatively anticipated failures and re-mapped behind the scenes. Even these days, the shiny new new 6 and 7 figure NVMe arrays I'm buying today from Pure, HPE, etc. do the same thing, although good luck getting an SE to disclose how and to what extent! Flash is awesome, but I'll never 100% trust it :)

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1 hour ago, Cory5412 said:

There aren't any new-built compact flash adapters being built, and the previous one cost more than a scsi2sd v6 does anyway, and the remaining CF media is either uninspiring or costly.

 

CF itself would be fine for that role, although not really any better than SD  .  .  .

 

Thanks the latter was what I was wondering about. I do have and IDE->SD adapter card to try out alongside my IDE->CF adapters. The former wasn't really about practicability of new-built CF adaptation, really just curiosity. Until current 3.3v solid state memory modules hit a Fast/Wide SCSI II bus it's nothing but theoretical. There wouldn't be any market at all for such unless it takes the form of a new tech NuBus card made in JackHammer's image with n HDD on a card twist. Such would really be something, but even then there wouldn't be much market or point to it unless it fits into the "because I can and really want to" category for someone. SCSI2SD's development and price point strengths lie far outside the RetroMac market.

 

Data portability makes SD a very enticing notion for CSII era machines that really don't have anywhere to put a CF slot. Filing a bit to notch out a PCI cover plate to loop an SD expansion cable out the slot of TAM or 6360 appeals to me. Has anyone yet tested SCSI2SD with one of those cables? That notion would work with a NuBus backplane plate as well. For that matter, the MicroSD male end of my extension cable inserts into and looks to go right through a security slot. That'd be fine and dandy an internally SCSI modded Plus, but ye olde battery cover exit ploy remains in play. With a few dabs of hot glue the Full SD female end would feel right at home next to either.

 

Right back on topic, sort of, when fitting-a-scsi2sd-in-a-68k-mac, maybe keep in mind pointing the SD slot to the rear of the Plus or Classic cases in, esp in the case of the Classic that's w/o battery cover possibility. Wouldn't want to yank an extension cable out sideways much less from the front of an SD card slot. :eek: My cable's 18", but no sense enabling a random fecal occurrence during a simple bucket removal

 

 

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