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micheledipaola

scsi voodoo on a quadra 700 with an 80 pin hd

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hello everybody,

 

I am in this very strange situation:

 

my Quadra 700 came with an hard disk which failed after a few weeks. I wanted to try an 80 pin hd (cheaper, easier to find) with this made-in-china adapter: https://it.aliexpress.com/item/4001112495209.html and I got my hands on a 17GB Seagate Cheetah ST318406LC (the label says it's LVD/SE).

 

Connecting it and turning the Mac on got me chimes of death and sad mac errors 00000F / 0000003 or 000000A, with any possible combination of scsi id  (now the HD is on ID 4).

 

I could boot the Quadra with an external (v5.5 boxed) scsi2sd and low-level format the disk to HFS with FWB Tool Kit, then install MacOS 8.1 - the disk is there, I can see it, it reads and writes perfectly, if I use system picker to pick the 8.1 HD system folder and then reboot, it will boot into 8.1 with no problems, but... if I unplug the scsi2sd and just turn the Mac on, I get the no-disk icon. 

How is this possible? what setting or action am I missing?

 

Any hint or advise is warmly welcome! 

Thanks in advance!

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Sounds like you aren't using an inline terminator? These boards provide no termination at all, you either need to solder resistors or a resistor pack to the data line pins on the adapter, or use an inline 50 pin SCSI terminator. The SCSI2SD is terminating the bus when it is attached, which is why it makes sense that the drive stops being found when it is disconnected. The lack of termination might upset the Quadra enough to get the Sad Mac.

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I have a lot of experience with those 80pin conversion boards.  I ordered several different types from different sellers before I got one that works.

 

The one you picture won't work on the Mac.  The adapter board itself does not have any termination, and drives don't either.  Even adding a terminator in the line after the hard drive (using a 3 slot cable) won't work.

 

I have bought many from this company, and their adapter board works:

 

https://www.datastoragecables.com/scsi/internaladapters/sca80/SM-028.html

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9 hours ago, MrFahrenheit said:

I have a lot of experience with those 80pin conversion boards.  I ordered several different types from different sellers before I got one that works.

 

The one you picture won't work on the Mac.  The adapter board itself does not have any termination, and drives don't either.  Even adding a terminator in the line after the hard drive (using a 3 slot cable) won't work.

 

I have bought many from this company, and their adapter board works:

 

https://www.datastoragecables.com/scsi/internaladapters/sca80/SM-028.html

Thanks,

 

I would profit of your experience to ask you: is it normal that the disk is seen and accessible anyway, if I boot from another device, and will warm-boot if I use system picker on it, while it will not cold-boot when the Mac is turned on? Shouldn't the lack of a termination affect it in any situation and not only with cold-boot? 

 

Just trying to learn something more out of this situation :)

 

I will anyway try with the one you are linking, or maybe I will look for one in Europe (I am in Italy) that might ship faster.

 

 

Edited by micheledipaola

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14 hours ago, micheledipaola said:

Thanks,

 

I would profit of your experience to ask you: is it normal that the disk is seen and accessible anyway, if I boot from another device, and will warm-boot if I use system picker on it, while it will not cold-boot when the Mac is turned on? Shouldn't the lack of a termination affect it in any situation and not only with cold-boot? 

 

Just trying to learn something more out of this situation :)

 

I will anyway try with the one you are linking, or maybe I will look for one in Europe (I am in Italy) that might ship faster.

 

 

Well that’s certainly interesting. I have a box full of different adapters that I tried that wouldn’t work and yours is one of them. 
 

If you look at the link I sent you can see 3 termination resisters on the board. Look at your board - no terminators. 
 

Additionally there’s something called hi and low termination. I do believe the 3 terminators cover both. 
 

As to why it would work except cold boot, that I can’t tell you. Strange. 
 

Have you tried turning on the machine and after it’s warmed up pressing the reset key combo on the keyboard ?

 

Has your Mac been recapped ?

 

Also, be careful buying one from another supplier. I’ve bought many that implied “active termination “ but had no termination. 

Edited by MrFahrenheit
Added info

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15 hours ago, Daniël Oosterhuis said:

The Mac in question is a Quadra 700, which has tantalums. They can fail, but they tend to just short out entirely.

Do you know if anyone has recapped it before you?  I recapped a Q610 with different caps than normal, and they had a higher resistance rating on them. This prevented SCSI from working. I recapped it with the ones I normally use and it worked after. 

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14 hours ago, MrFahrenheit said:

Do you know if anyone has recapped it before you?  I recapped a Q610 with different caps than normal, and they had a higher resistance rating on them. This prevented SCSI from working. I recapped it with the ones I normally use and it worked after. 

No previous recapping as far as I know. SCSI works anyway, bus shows no error or strange behavior on many scsi utilities, scsi2sd works perfectly and also the internal scsi drive works - only IF scsi2sd is connected too. Anyway I will give a shot to the active termination adapters and see if it solves the problem. Just have to wait for them to reach me from US...

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...aaaaaaand it worked!!! :-)

 

thanks @MrFahrenheit !

 

I spent an insane amount of money to have the adapter delivered fast from the US to Italy, and another amount for customs clearance, but it is now here in the Quadra 700 and the scsi hard disk booted from cold and correctly loaded the system! Hooray!

Luckily enough, I ordered two adapters, so now I can use the second to add an extra HD to the DuoDockII for my PowerBook Duo 280!

 

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8 hours ago, micheledipaola said:

...aaaaaaand it worked!!! :-)

 

thanks @MrFahrenheit !

 

I spent an insane amount of money to have the adapter delivered fast from the US to Italy, and another amount for customs clearance, but it is now here in the Quadra 700 and the scsi hard disk booted from cold and correctly loaded the system! Hooray!

Luckily enough, I ordered two adapters, so now I can use the second to add an extra HD to the DuoDockII for my PowerBook Duo 280!

 

I’m glad it works and my research has paid off for you. 
 

I have had the discussion several times with people who say their adapter should work anyways. My experience says otherwise. 
 

Enjoy!!

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8 hours ago, MrFahrenheit said:

I’m glad it works and my research has paid off for you. 
 

I have had the discussion several times with people who say their adapter should work anyways. My experience says otherwise. 
 

Enjoy!!

There are still situations where the cheap, non-terminated adapters can be a good option, still. If you're installing it into a Mac with multiple SCSI devices, for example a CD-ROM drive, you can just terminate that instead. As long as you don't have one of the super fussy drives, it'll work fine. Even if the terminated device is connected inbetween the SCA drive and the logic board. That's the current test rig I have set up with my Performa 600, which works nicely. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work in other Macs with the ability for multiple SCSI drives, like the Quadra 800, 840AV, 950, or the PowerMac 6100/7100/8100, etc. It's currently running an Ultra160 Fujitsu that allows for Narrow Mode to be jumpered, and I hope to find more drives to test, to eventually compile into a list somewhere on the site, but it seems cheap SCA drives have dried up around here.

 

I would agree a terminating adapter is a must for single internal SCSI device Macs like the Quadra 700, but the sad fact is that there don't seem to be many sellers out there for these, and the linked one is insanely expensive to ship to Europe. There is however, the ability to terminate such an adapter by hand, for those crafty enough, which would be a good chunk of change saved: 

 

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don't know if my soldering skills could make it, but good hint anyway.

and yes, getting that adapter to Italy cost me 100€+ for fedex fast shipping (fast indeed, less than a week) plus 35€+ for customs clearing so... I could have probably bought another 50 pins scsi disk with that money. Anyway, I am glad I could solve this. Now I have a nice Quadra 700 to play with :D

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8 hours ago, micheledipaola said:

don't know if my soldering skills could make it, but good hint anyway.

and yes, getting that adapter to Italy cost me 100€+ for fedex fast shipping (fast indeed, less than a week) plus 35€+ for customs clearing so... I could have probably bought another 50 pins scsi disk with that money. Anyway, I am glad I could solve this. Now I have a nice Quadra 700 to play with :D

Oh wow!  That’s a lot!!  I apologize if I’m responsible for that. 

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8 hours ago, MrFahrenheit said:

Oh wow!  That’s a lot!!  I apologize if I’m responsible for that. 

Don't worry, nothing to apologize for. 

it is costly indeed,  but I am super happy it could solve my problem.

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9 hours ago, Daniël Oosterhuis said:

There are still situations where the cheap, non-terminated adapters can be a good option, still. If you're installing it into a Mac with multiple SCSI devices, for example a CD-ROM drive, you can just terminate that instead. As long as you don't have one of the super fussy drives, it'll work fine. Even if the terminated device is connected inbetween the SCA drive and the logic board. That's the current test rig I have set up with my Performa 600, which works nicely. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work in other Macs with the ability for multiple SCSI drives, like the Quadra 800, 840AV, 950, or the PowerMac 6100/7100/8100, etc. It's currently running an Ultra160 Fujitsu that allows for Narrow Mode to be jumpered, and I hope to find more drives to test, to eventually compile into a list somewhere on the site, but it seems cheap SCA drives have dried up around here.

 

I would agree a terminating adapter is a must for single internal SCSI device Macs like the Quadra 700, but the sad fact is that there don't seem to be many sellers out there for these, and the linked one is insanely expensive to ship to Europe. There is however, the ability to terminate such an adapter by hand, for those crafty enough, which would be a good chunk of change saved: 

 

Some of the ones I have that don’t have any termination also don’t work in the middle of the SCSI chain. I’ve read something about extra lines needing termination and in general a narrow bus doesn’t terminate the high lines regardless of what terminator is on the end. Or something like that. 
 

All I know is the ones from that store work, and I have a box of ones from eBay sellers that don’t work at all, regardless of how I configured the drives on the bus. 

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17 hours ago, MrFahrenheit said:

Some of the ones I have that don’t have any termination also don’t work in the middle of the SCSI chain. I’ve read something about extra lines needing termination and in general a narrow bus doesn’t terminate the high lines regardless of what terminator is on the end. Or something like that. 
 

All I know is the ones from that store work, and I have a box of ones from eBay sellers that don’t work at all, regardless of how I configured the drives on the bus. 

It does seem like maybe drives that won't necessarily deal with the Narrow SCSI Bus, might do so out of termination related problems. I have two 72GB U320 drives that don't have a jumper for Narrow Mode, and those won't work at all. The thread I linked does also have a mod to do the termination for the full SCA80 connector data lines if necessary, I'm probably going to try that on one of the adapters I have to see if that makes the 72GB drives work.

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18 hours ago, Daniël Oosterhuis said:

There are still situations where the cheap, non-terminated adapters can be a good option, still. If you're installing it into a Mac with multiple SCSI devices, for example a CD-ROM drive, you can just terminate that instead. As long as you don't have one of the super fussy drives, it'll work fine.

Not strictly true.   The 80 pin drives are wide devices.  The Mac has a narrow SCSI bus.   Even though the upper (wide) bits aren't being used, they should be terminated on the drive.   So just putting the drive bare in the middle of a properly terminated SCSI chain might work, but it is not proper SCSI configuration.   The upper bits on the wide drive must be terminated, unless it is in the middle of a wide SCSI chain.

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8 hours ago, trag said:

Not strictly true.   The 80 pin drives are wide devices.  The Mac has a narrow SCSI bus.   Even though the upper (wide) bits aren't being used, they should be terminated on the drive.   So just putting the drive bare in the middle of a properly terminated SCSI chain might work, but it is not proper SCSI configuration.   The upper bits on the wide drive must be terminated, unless it is in the middle of a wide SCSI chain.

Yeah, I misunderstood it. I should have specified that the drive I was using is an NP model of Fujitsu U160 SCA drive, that does have the jumper for Narrow mode. Am I correct to assume that my SCA U320 drives that aren't recognized in the same setup, and don't have the narrow mode jumper setting, would work in a narrow bus Mac with the upper bits properly terminated? @max1zzz's thread on terminating the adapters does have an example on terminating the upper bits on one of these adapters, if I recall correctly, so I might need to try that and see if my 72GB drives would work on Macs then.

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On 9/22/2020 at 12:52 AM, Daniël Oosterhuis said:

Yeah, I misunderstood it. I should have specified that the drive I was using is an NP model of Fujitsu U160 SCA drive, that does have the jumper for Narrow mode. Am I correct to assume that my SCA U320 drives that aren't recognized in the same setup, and don't have the narrow mode jumper setting, would work in a narrow bus Mac with the upper bits properly terminated? @max1zzz's thread on terminating the adapters does have an example on terminating the upper bits on one of these adapters, if I recall correctly, so I might need to try that and see if my 72GB drives would work on Macs then.

My experience was that on drives that did not have any option for narrow mode terminating the upper bits would often get the drive recognised however even with correct termination some drives just wouldn't work on a narrow bus, and some would work on newer macs but not older ones (I have a 18GB drive in my PM 8600 that works fine in the PM but doesn't work on any 68K I have tried it on). I actually had quite good success with using U320/U160 SCA80 drives in 68K's but I did try and keep to the smaller, older drives. If you are ever looking to purchase SCA80 Drives to use in 68K's the 2.5" segate drives used in the IBM eServer's (i'm not sure of the Seagate P/N offhand) tend to work pretty well, I have a box of 15 or so of the 72GB versions that I am slowly working my way through as my 68k's need new drives and I am yet to find anything they don't work in.

 

One note about the way I terminated the adapters, the method I used really requires a 2.85v regulator, these (at least in the UK) are pretty hard to find and I ended up ordering the parts from china. You can make do with 2 or 3 diodes off the 5v / termpower lines or a 3.3v regulator but it's not in spec so could cause issues (it never did for me but as @trag points our in the thread it's not the correct way to do it)

 

On a side note - I do still have quite a few PCB's and parts for the terminated adapters I used to make so if anyone is looking for a terminated adapter feel free to drop me a PM, I stopped making them as I didn't think there was any demand for them after SCSI2SD came out

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ISTR that some SCA drives were backward compatible all the way to the Mac's SLOW/Narrow SCSI implementation and some were not. Have vague recollections of the U160 standard requiring compatibility. It was dropped from the U360 standard(?) where some mfrs kept it alive and some put it down for the lame dog that it was. IBMs Savvios support narrow in 68k machines, but I've no experience with others.

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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On 9/27/2020 at 4:13 AM, max1zzz said:

On a side note - I do still have quite a few PCB's and parts for the terminated adapters I used to make so if anyone is looking for a terminated adapter feel free to drop me a PM, I stopped making them as I didn't think there was any demand for them after SCSI2SD came out

ah thats good to know :) 

 

I have a drive-less 9600 that one of these days I really need to sort out some sort of SCSI drive for at some point! (I use a PCI ATA card for most things I do with it, but that does not work if I want to mess with the more obscure OS's like OS X Server 1.x for example)

 

so its good to know there are a couple more options still beside the SCSI2SD (I would love a SCSI2SD but they bit hard to justify for me currently with how pricey they are, the V5.x's are not bad, but Ideally id want a V6 to make full use of the 10MB's SCSI bus in the 9600 and the V6's are like £100!)

Edited by LightBulbFun

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