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demik

Project: PowerMac 6100 HPV Riser + HPV VRAM

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Hello everyone :) 

 

Introduction

Long story short, I got a 8100 a while back, which had some sort of PSU fault which resulted in a dead motherboard (burned area of 4 cm^2 + tons of smoke :O ). Salvaged some parts of it, included one HPV card (820-0509-A). I want to use this card into my PowerMac 6100/60 as it's more powerfull than the onboard GPU.

 

I also see a lot of HPV cards on ebay, so that would be an interesting upgrade to some others 6100s

 

Goal

The first goal to create a riser card which will + maybe other stuff if that's possible (think debug LEDs, and so on)

An bonus goal would be to create VRAM SIMM sticks for HPV cards.

The design will be OpenSource and production will start with a small batch of risers (5-10), more if needed

 

Testing

The HPV works directly plugged into the PDS slot (see picture), but it stick a lot outsise which is not ideal. This is good news, it means that the PCB routing will be easy to do (1:1)

 

IMG_5208.thumb.jpg.ddda9032a2f2692fdc52dc3356c46e51.jpg

 

Known Hardware

As far as I know, there is two existing risers which can help with this.

- The NuBus riser (P/N : Unknown) has the wrong connector (NuBus), Dimentions should help

- The DAV riser (P/N : Unknown) has the good connector, this is the one to be cloned

- DOS riser (P/N : 820-0578-A) has the wrong connector, looks more like a Quadra PDS slot. Dimentions should help

 

Help wanted

As I've none of the previously mentioned risers, and none SIMMs, anything including photos, especialy precise measurements/dimentions should help.

 

Thanks a lot for your help.

 

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I think I posted a source for the slot connector, which you will need one of on the riser card, in a thread over in the Hacks forum.   Too lazy to go hunt up a link at the moment.

 

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Hi, demik. The most useful card for reference outside the OEM part would be a G3 accelerator for the 6100. You can get all your measurements from any one of those boards very easily, especially the offset required for connector<->backplane fit. I can haul down the 6100 and scan the solder side of the G3 for starters.

 

I'll be following your progress very closely because I suddenly now have one more to add to the pair of risers on the backburner already. ::) Your observation about the personality card connector had me confirm that a Left Angle Adapter to flop over the Whisper card in my long procrastinated Beige G3 2U Rackmount build works nicely. I'd planned on bodging a pair of PCI riser cables to make that connection, but now I'm inspired! That connector info is much welcomed, trag, THX! The other riser project's a pair of offset, lowrider "second slot" PCI adapters, one for the TAM and the other for the drawer of the 6360 and its single slot AIO variations.

 

Have you found a rapid prototyping fab that can do edge card connectors of proper thicknesses yet? That was where procrastination set in for me almost three years ago. Anybody got info on sources? ISTR the ROM and SIMM edgecard thicknesses being a bit of a hurdle?

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11 hours ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

Hi, demik. The most useful card for reference outside the OEM part would be a G3 accelerator for the 6100. You can get all your measurements from any one of those boards very easily, especially the offset required for connector<->backplane fit. I can haul down the 6100 and scan the solder side of the G3 for starters.

Thats the thing, i don't have any :) I will search for some G3 accelerator specs. Can you scan yours please ?

11 hours ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

I'll be following your progress very closely because I suddenly now have one more to add to the pair of risers on the backburner already. ::) Your observation about the personality card connector had me confirm that a Left Angle Adapter to flop over the Whisper card in my long procrastinated Beige G3 2U Rackmount build works nicely. I'd planned on bodging a pair of PCI riser cables to make that connection, but now I'm inspired! That connector info is much welcomed, trag, THX! The other riser project's a pair of offset, lowrider "second slot" PCI adapters, one for the TAM and the other for the drawer of the 6360 and its single slot AIO variations.

Nice projects ! I went the Micro ATX case (will show this in a separate thread "soon")

11 hours ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

Have you found a rapid prototyping fab that can do edge card connectors of proper thicknesses yet? That was where procrastination set in for me almost three years ago. Anybody got info on sources? ISTR the ROM and SIMM edgecard thicknesses being a bit of a hurdle?

 

I've been told to try jlbpcb, or I will homemade the prototype.

Ok so now we have two connectors references, I need to buy a set of thoses for checking.

 

Nice information about the thickness of SIMMs... I noticed that the VRAM SIMM from a Macintosh LC fit the HPV perfectly (it isnt compatible, but it physicaly fits). The thickness of this SIMM is 1.3mm. Thats a problem because standardized values are either 1.2mm or 1.6mm. Maybe 1.2mm should work.

 

Regards

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Good to know the edge connector standards, that helps a lot. HPV and PCI would be 1.6mm according to my inexpensive DigiPers. Not pulling out the Mitutoyo or the micrometer for this one. Set to 1.6mm I'm getting variances in the low hundredths to the plus for HPV and to the minus of a cheap two PCI cabled riser. Checked slots and edge connectors against each other and 1.6mm appears to be on the money!

 

Off again today, so I'll see if I can get a scan done later.

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Old SIMM, e.g. 30 pin, 64 pin, are .050" or 1.27 mm.   1.2mm is a little too thin.   More modern stuff is .063" or 1.6mm and everything is more politely standardized at that thickness.

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38 minutes ago, trag said:

Old SIMM, e.g. 30 pin, 64 pin, are .050" or 1.27 mm.   1.2mm is a little too thin.   More modern stuff is .063" or 1.6mm and everything is more politely standardized at that thickness.

Thanks ! I saw someone else on the forums building SIMMs for IIfx, I will ask him

 

Edited by demik

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Not so great results so far, but the side of my pencil came out sharp as a tack! :mellow:

 

6100-G3-00-2p.jpg.5412457785a883c8df40f25a173b1348.jpg

 

I'll see if I can locate my in need of resurrection (thermal paste hopefully) Sonnet from the Radius 81/110. Maybe its solder side components aren't skyscrapers. Add witness lines for whatever measurements you'd like me to take

 

6100-DOS-00-2p.jpg.aa90a8ea3e1196f636851a48e4b500cc.jpg

 

Looks like I need to haul out my Win7 NetBook to use the scanner software on it for this. Even the DOS(?) Riser came out pretty bad. Used NAPS2 on the Win10 notebook and the file sizes are way too small. Can't figure out the controls, if any. Not Another PDF Scanner 2 just ain't cuttin' it for this. Maybe it's for low res, down and dirty, straight to PDF only?

 

edit: anybody got a recommendation for a freeware, donationware or shareware TWAIN scan app for Win10?

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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Thats enough for me, I can calculate dimentions with this. Picture looks stretched but that will do.
Top is G3, bottom is DOS rise right ?

 

Just need two measurements : left and right sides of the DOS riser.

 

Thanks a lot !

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HPV-G3-Riser-10.thumb.jpg.8634befd586cee5b02acf262c1c2922d.jpg

 

This should be a lot better. Just scale the 4 inches between 1"& 5" to life size in something like Illustrator. You can then create boxes from point to point to read off all your measurements/offsets etc. The other way to go about it is to work from the grid spacing of the edge card slot's soldertails. PCB dimensions are a red herring, connector grids are hard numbers. I'll see if I can come up with the Sonnet Card for a sharper image.

 

I threw the DOS riser in for shiggles and gits. Do you need another scan of that one too?

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HPV-G3-Riser-11.thumb.jpg.74c1463b02cbab93db47737121d7d170.jpg

 

"Burning the first inch" only and scaling the 5 inches from 1 thru 6 will be significantly more accurate. This one's set to highest quality in PaperScan Free Edition 3.0.103.

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28 minutes ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

HPV-G3-Riser-10.thumb.jpg.8634befd586cee5b02acf262c1c2922d.jpg

 

This should be a lot better. Just scale the 4 inches between 1"& 5" to life size in something like Illustrator. You can then create boxes from point to point to read off all your measurements/offsets etc. The other way to go about it is to work from the grid spacing of the edge card slot's soldertails. PCB dimensions are a red herring, connector grids are hard numbers. I'll see if I can come up with the Sonnet Card for a sharper image.

 

I threw the DOS riser in for shiggles and gits. Do you need another scan of that one too?

Good to know ! I didn't think of using Illustrator / Photoshop

 

That will do, thanks again !

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Also, the dimensions are also in there (search for PowerMac_Computers.pdf on google)

Progress on the SIMM side. Here is the pinout extracted from Apple Developer Note

Table 4-9 VRAM SIMM pin assignments

Pin | Name   | Pin | Name   | Pin | Name
----+--------+-----+--------+-----+--------
1   | +5 V   | 24  | DQ4    | 47  | DQ10
2   | DSF*   | 25  | DQ5    | 48  | A6
3   | SDQ0   | 26  | SDQ7   | 49  | A7
4   | SDQ1   | 27  | SDQ6   | 50  | A8
5   | /DTOE0†| 28  | NC     | 51  | NC
6   | DQ0    | 29  | +5 V   | 52  | +5 V
7   | DQ1    | 30  | DQ7    | 53  | GND
8   | SDQ3   | 31  | DQ6    | 54  | GND
9   | SDQ1   | 32  | /CAS0  | 55  | SDQ12
10  | /WE0   | 33  | A4     | 56  | SDQ13
11  | /RAS   | 34  | A5     | 57  | NC
12  | /SE0   | 35  | GND    | 58  | DQ12
13  | DQ3    | 36  | SC     | 59  | DQ13
14  | DQ2    | 37  | SCQ8   | 60  | SDQ15
15  | A0     | 38  | SDQ9   | 61  | SDQ14
16  | A1     | 39  | /DTOE1 | 62  | NC
17  | A2     | 40  | DQ8    | 63  | NC
18  | A3     | 41  | DQ9    | 64  | DQ15
19  | GND    | 42  | SDQ11  | 65  | DQ14
20  | GND    | 43  | SDQ10  | 66  | /CAS1
21  | SDQ4   | 44  | /WE1   | 67  | +5 V
22  | SDQ5   | 45  | /SE1   | 68  | +5 V
23  | NC     | 46  | DQ11

* The DSF pin must be tied to either +5 V or ground.
† A slash before a signal name indicates that it is in the low state when active.

Also, the dimensions are also in there (search for PowerMac_Computers.pdf on google)

Scans of a similar VRAM

 

vram_front.jpg.f2e74869c28cd8d2763204c75fe430ae.jpg

 

vram_back.jpg.c1cea3a9f1d7bc66b44b46dad656b980.jpg

 

It's stated that they should be 80ns, but the chips on my HPV are 70ns... Some guy on the Internet put HPV video VRAM on an LC 475 and it worked. So I don't understand why mine deosn't. Maybe the 80ns vs 70ns thing.

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Connector offset is around 17mm, and card is exactly at 40mm above the motherboard (ruler inserted into PDS slot)

 

IMG_5229.thumb.jpg.a35aafc86e04f6e5a4039dc4cc37e5e1.jpg

 

IMG_5231.thumb.jpg.a2a00069650718635fe14bd86a3bc222.jpg

 

Chips used on my HPV are KM428C256J-7. Datasheet included in the post: KM428C256J.pdf

 

Samsung_KM428C256J-7.png

 

Anyone got different chips ?

 

TODO: reverse and compare the PCB layout of existing Cubig VRAM sticks (with VRAM chips V52C8128K80)

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Progress !

 

Here what's being done :

- Created a KiKad library for Apple Connectors

- Diagram done

- PCB Layout and routing done

- Bough enough component for a first batch of risers (using connector EDAC 302-182-520-900)

 

PCB routing was quite a mess. i'm pretty sure Apple risers are 4 layers, but managed to get it working with only 2 ! Auto routing gave up a couple of times (mostly ground and a few datelines, had to help him out a bit)

 

PCB%20Routing.png

 

Here is a render of what the board should look like:

 

HPV_Riser.png

 

Everything should be home in 2-3 weeks, I will keep you updated !

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17 minutes ago, demik said:

Here what's being done :

- Created a KiKad library for Apple Connectors 

- Diagram done 

- PCB Layout and routing done 

- Bough enough component for a first batch of risers (using connector EDAC 302-182-520-900) 

You're going about this in a beautifully organised fashion.  Are you planning to release the KiCad library for wider consumption?

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1 hour ago, cheesestraws said:

You're going about this in a beautifully organised fashion.  Are you planning to release the KiCad library for wider consumption?

Thank you !

 

Sure, the whole project source (although in a crude state) is available here https://github.com/demik/oldworld/tree/master/EDA. I need to add some doc and tweak some stuff before it can be considered "clean"

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Years ago I put in a bit of effort to get the NuBus adapter and a 7" PrecisionColor 24X but was pretty disappointed in its performance in my 6100/66 (though my expectations were probably way higher than they should have been: this was 2001ish and already at least a 7-year-old computer). If I had known about the HPV option I would've used that instead and probably saved some money.

 

Since then I've fitted an HPV card to either a 6100 or a Pioneer MPC-GX1 (same thing, basically) and it just barely clears the hard drive with all of the VRAM sticks installed. However the VRAM SIMMs are extremely close to the processor's heat sink so they'll get hot, and you can't really use a fancy heat sink/fan combo on the processor, but maybe it would be a good idea to switch to one of the types used in the 9150 or 7200, available new (without the Peltier junction attached) as found by jessenator in another thread: 

Quote

Turns out Wakefield-Vette still makes PowerPC specific heatsinks, and one where the clip fits, although instead of the X-pattern, it's two parallel clips.
From Mouser, or from DigiKey.

 

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4 hours ago, Franklinstein said:

Since then I've fitted an HPV card to either a 6100 or a Pioneer MPC-GX1 (same thing, basically) and it just barely clears the hard drive with all of the VRAM sticks installed. However the VRAM SIMMs are extremely close to the processor's heat sink so they'll get hot, and you can't really use a fancy heat sink/fan combo on the processor, but maybe it would be a good idea to switch to one of the types used in the 9150 or 7200, available new (without the Peltier junction attached) as found by jessenator in another thread: 

 

Yeah the HPV SIMMs are extremely close to the CPU. Thanks for this information. Will add one of these on my next order.

 

Can I request a photo or the part number of you SIMMs and HPV ? I'm having trouble getting memory chips, even NOS. More references should help.

 

Regards

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On 5/7/2020 at 11:42 AM, demik said:

Progress !

 

Here what's being done :

- Created a KiKad library for Apple Connectors

- Diagram done

- PCB Layout and routing done

- Bough enough component for a first batch of risers (using connector EDAC 302-182-520-900)

 

PCB routing was quite a mess. i'm pretty sure Apple risers are 4 layers, but managed to get it working with only 2 ! Auto routing gave up a couple of times (mostly ground and a few datelines, had to help him out a bit)

 

snip

 

Here is a render of what the board should look like:

 

snip

 

Everything should be home in 2-3 weeks, I will keep you updated !

 

Just curious, did you get these risers made, and if so, are you planning on selling any? I'm definitely interested in one, while I initially didn't want to spend a lot of cash on my rather poor condition 6100, I've slowly fallen into the trap of wanting to kit out yet another computer, and those HPV/AV cards aren't crazy expensive. Those risers are hard to find, so getting a freshly made one would be cool! 

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On 6/6/2020 at 3:46 PM, Daniël Oosterhuis said:

 

Just curious, did you get these risers made, and if so, are you planning on selling any? I'm definitely interested in one, while I initially didn't want to spend a lot of cash on my rather poor condition 6100, I've slowly fallen into the trap of wanting to kit out yet another computer, and those HPV/AV cards aren't crazy expensive. Those risers are hard to find, so getting a freshly made one would be cool! 

 

Thanks for your interest.

 

Yes I did. Covid didn't help so I only received everything last week. I made a mistake reading the connector datasheet, and so the hole size is wrong. Ordered a new batch with the correct size. This issue aside, it's fine (connector fir in motherboard properly, and the HPV card fit nicely in the sourced connector)

 

The design for the riser is open source so you will be able to :

- build one yourself from scratch

- build all the parts as a do it yourself kit. (price to be determined, but definitively under $30). I may be build them myself if there is demand.

Edited by demik

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9 hours ago, demik said:

 

Thanks for your interest.

 

Yes I did. Covid didn't help so I only received everything last week. I made a mistake reading the connector datasheet, and so the hole size is wrong. Ordered a new batch with the correct size. This issue aside, it's fine (connector fir in motherboard properly, and the HPV card fit nicely in the sourced connector)

 

The design for the riser is open source so you will be able to :

- build one yourself from scratch

- build all the parts as a do it yourself kit. (price to be determined, but definitively under $30). I may be build them myself if there is demand.

 

I saw that those connectors seem to only be for sale from Mouser, which is a bit pricey to buy from due to the shipping costs and import duties involved in US -> EU shipping, so it'd probably be a bit of an endeavour for me to get myself a whole batch of those and PCBs. Therefore, I'd definitely be interested in a DIY kit once you're ready and got a price to put on it.

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