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Macintosh SE/30 Schematics (modernization effort)

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11 hours ago, elemenoh said:

Nice!  If I don't get any more info about anyone who's started a PCB layout, I might create a simple pull request so that we can get something simple started that would at least be helpful for an interactive BOM and recapping projects.  But, before that, probably the first pull request I may make would simply be to polish the repository structure, documentation, etc. so that it is comparable with other KiCad projects out on GitHub.

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To whomever works on the modern PCB, It'd be rad to have it use a 2032 cell holder by default. I retrofit my boards with them but they're a very different size from the ½AA so not mechanically attached very well.

Edited by elemenoh

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8 hours ago, quorten said:

the first pull request I may make would simply be to polish the repository structure, documentation, etc. so that it is comparable with other KiCad projects out on GitHub.

Cool please do. I have no idea how that stuff is supposed to be organized :) 

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I'm trying to troubleshoot a SCSI issue using these schematics. Super helpful so far. One question: /IOR and /IOW lines from UI12 (pins 18 and 19) are connected to ports IOR* and IOW*:

 

image.thumb.png.4e303aacb5a3aa475470cc14f73f49f8.png

 

I can't find anything else that connects to IOR*, but suspiciously the GLUE chip UI8 connects to ports IDR* and IOW*:

 

image.png.84698eb86307a9dab98da3c9e9505a8a.png

 

I could imagine from the original scan it's hard to make out a D vs an O so I wanted to see if I'm crazy or if these should be the same ports:

 

image.thumb.png.b8379c16627a7b9a6e8157a4662f901a.png
 

EDIT: I just confirmed on a working board that IDR* should be IOR*. 

Edited by ttb

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One more that I can confirm needs to be fixed: SCSIN (port SCSI*) is on pin 24 of the GLUE chip, not pin 14:

 

image.png.de81c8fdce46dbb9cb31cdbb3520ca56.png

 

Original schematic:

 

image.png.e98c91d2b4d6ce8dea6537a35e161b4f.png

 

EDIT:

 

One more thing: It would be nice to number VDD and GND pins on the SCSI chip. Per the original schematic it looks like VDD is on 23:

 

image.png.b40200f54d4a352ebf01e3cd32d9a99c.png

 

And 3, 42, 36, 12, and 31 are grounded:

 

image.png.61ab1ad21191dff8aa041ef433039c58.png

Edited by ttb

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@ttbthanks for catching those issues. I've corrected them all and updated them on GitHub. I'm new to GitHub so hopefully I updated and merged correctly. Please let me know if you see other issues.

 

https://github.com/mishimasensei/macse30mlb

 

BTW, I'm not surprised about the IOR/IDR thing. The scans were hard to read and I'm not familiar enough with the components to know which pin should have which label. I tried looking up data sheets but found that the schematic drawings often used differing labels for the pins.

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If there's any kind of redraw effort in the works - would it be better to separate the quarter of the board that houses memory into a daughterboard? If you want to use 8 SIMMs, plug in a board similar to the original with SIMM sockets. If you just want to have 128M memory then plug in the modern board containing far fewer chips implementing 128M X 8 bits?

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I've noticed the note #4 at page 1 erroneously says "RDB" instead of "ADB".

 

Now that I'm getting more into redrawing the Macintosh SE MLB schematics, I'm also looking to the redrawn SE/30 MLB schematics for reference.  Though the original SE/30 scans are not nearly as illegible or as incomplete as the SE MLB schematics, looks like there are still a number of small fact/quality checks and improvements remaining.  I might see what I can do to carefully eye through it the way I've done for the only page of the SE MLB schematics that is scanned, as in any case it would be a good learning experience for me too.

 

As a side note, I've noticed that @uniserver also happens to have some redrawn SE/30 schematics on his personal website that have purportedly been around for much longer.  It requires payment through PayPal, though, and I'd guess his way of running the site requires him to manually send an E-mail to you after the payment is received, which may not be guaranteed if he's no longer very active with his site.  Also, It's been years since he's last been on 68kMLA.

 

Has anyone ever bought/used Uniserver's schematics?  I'm curious to hear what you thought about them.

Edited by quorten
MLB

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9 hours ago, quorten said:

Also, It's been years since he's last been on 68kMLA.

There's a very good reason for this:  He was permanently banned after he allegedly had some kind of falling out with the mods and admins, the exact details of which were (rightly) never made public.

 

c

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14 hours ago, quorten said:

I've noticed the note #4 at page 1 erroneously says "RDB" instead of "ADB".

 

Now that I'm getting more into redrawing the Macintosh SE MLB schematics, I'm also looking to the redrawn SE/30 MLB schematics for reference.  Though the original SE/30 scans are not nearly as illegible or as incomplete as the SE MLB schematics, looks like there are still a number of small fact/quality checks and improvements remaining.  I might see what I can do to carefully eye through it the way I've done for the only page of the SE MLB schematics that is scanned, as in any case it would be a good learning experience for me too.

 

As a side note, I've noticed that @uniserver also happens to have some redrawn SE/30 schematics on his personal website that have purportedly been around for much longer.  It requires payment through PayPal, though, and I'd guess his way of running the site requires him to manually send an E-mail to you after the payment is received, which may not be guaranteed if he's no longer very active with his site.  Also, It's been years since he's last been on 68kMLA.

 

Has anyone ever bought/used Uniserver's schematics?  I'm curious to hear what you thought about them.

Those were done by BOMARC. All of those schematics are available for free from other sources these days, the SE/30 ones are on Macintosh Garden, and the rest are on The Internet Archive.

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21 hours ago, Daniël Oosterhuis said:

Those were done by BOMARC.

Wow, really?  So Uniserver just copied the BOMARC schematics and put a price tag on them?

 

I do have to agree, though, there seems to be a heck lot of copying for the schematics but not very many folks putting effort to improve quality on them, so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised if this is what you mean.

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@elemenoh Looks like there's a few outstanding improvements over the past few weeks that you haven't incorporated into your GitHub version yet.  Just wondering, putting this out as an idea, would you rather prefer collaborators on your master repo as opposed to forks and pull requests?  It really depends on what you would want to do as a maintainer, which I'm guessing is still all very new to you.  But, point in hand, there are methods you can use to ease keeping the repo up-to-date without needing yourself to be the single gatekeeper to changes.

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I too have some corrections. These are for the Sound Interface. (I verified these against Apple's Schematics. )

 

UB11 pin 8 is not connected to anything but it should go to ground.

 

UB10 and UB11 pin 6 are also floating. These are connected to a series of components that are missing from the schematics as well. The reset/programmer's switches are not present at all.

 

UB10 Pin 9 is not connected to anything but it should go to the ground.

 

These schematics have been very helpful in my troubleshooting, but I would greatly appreciate if you could go over the Sound Interface Schematics again and make these corrections. There might be some errors that I missed, so I think this section could use a little more work. Thanks!

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@davidg5678 I see a switch on the same page as the GLU, labeled as S2 NMI, this is the programmer's switch I've verified from logic board photos.  Good note about the circuits not mentioned in the original schematics, right now I don't have much info to add more about that into the schematics.

 

Since I've started making a few changes and plan on really eyeing down the SE/30 schematics carefully, you can check on my fork of @elemenoh's GitHub repository as I currently have a few updates over there.  I believe I should have addressed all recently mentioned issues except for the note on the missing reset switch and missing UB10&UB11 connections.

 

https://github.com/quorten/macse30mlb

 

One thing that seems to be missing from the Git repo is the source file for the last two pages of pin matrices.  A minor technical matter, I've just copied those from the PDFs previously posted.

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Another update on page 9 (power connector: the ground isn't shown on pins 1-5, 7, 8 as it is in the original:

 

image.png.b6853f0c0340c24c0a3e5856e36a7302.png

 

Sorry for dropping all these here, I'll figure out github one of these days!

Edited by ttb

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@ttb In my opinion, I'm just fine if you drop comments here about things to fix.  One way or another, these kinds of developments will require discussions with pictures to point things out, and either we have those discussions here on 68kMLA or on GitHub.

 

I've made the update to the schematics in my GitHub fork, I'm guessing elemenoh is taking a longer break of a sort from these kinds of things .  But in any case, it's my pleasure to be an intermin steward of these redrawn schematics.

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Oh, about pin 7, this doesn't look to be connected straight to ground, looks like it connects to ground via a capacitor, and that is correctly in the redrawn schematics.

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Pin 7 is -12V and branches up to connect to C9 before taking its way further down to the sound section:

 

55374773_Bildschirmfoto2020-09-01um08_21_07.png.c8fe6a8bfb8577e14949159e1e973e7f.png

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Oh yeah, now that we have the circuit board layer photos, we can fill in schematics for those missing sound interface TEST circuits that place additional components on the board.  That can go on the currently blank page 9.

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On 9/1/2020 at 2:11 AM, quorten said:

Oh yeah, now that we have the circuit board layer photos, we can fill in schematics for those missing sound interface TEST circuits that place additional components on the board.  That can go on the currently blank page 9.

Where can I get these?

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@Bolle has them, he posted some photos in the Macintosh SE main logic board reverse engineering thread.

 

 

However, that focused on the internal layers.  Bolle, do you have a full set of the photos at their highest resolution posted somewhere else online?  I'm thinking those would be good to include in the same GitHub repo as the schematics.

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Thanks! It's the internal layers I'm interested in looking at... but an ignorant question as I'm not familiar with the SE logic board... is it the same or similar enough the SE/30 board for these to be informative?

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I don’t have these posted anywhere yet.

Still looking for someone with a good scanner to have them scanned.

Did a scan on our office scanner at work but it won’t let you access the full quality scans, only sends you a compressed image via email.

It‘s ok but could be better.

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desertrout, those do look to be photos of the SE/30 logic board, the SE logic board is different and its layout is mentioned elsewhere in the discussion thread.  The SE logic board only has two internal layers for power and ground planes.

Edited by quorten
Mention SE internal layers

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