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K Trueno

Daystar Universal PowerCache P33 in SE/30

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So neither the GAL nor the 74ACT86 do anything on that SE/30 adapter if you use it in the SE/30...

The GAL code is the same as on the Daystar IIsi only adapter.

 

1355173674_Bildschirmfoto2019-06-25um10_14_13.thumb.png.a09d21211912c61a917c7a21ab60b07b.png

 

The input signals present at the GAL are the same as on the IIsi adapter, only a few output pins are routed to different places on the SE/30 connector.

Only signals that are important are on pins 17, 18 and 19.

/CFLUSH stays high all the time. Pin 18 (connected to C20 on the SE/30 cache connector) is high all the time as well.

/CENABLE stays low all the time.

 

The 74*86 outputs a high signal all the time as well because the two inputs 1 and 2 are receiving the same signal. CPUCLK and C16M are tied together on the SE/30 PDS slot.

It will only output something on the IIsi where CPUCLK is 20MHz and C16M is - guess what :tongue: - 16MHz. The signal coming out of there is then routed to /CFLUSH on the IIsi cache connector.

 

This means for a P33 -> SE/30 only adapter there isn't any GAL (or even any chip) needed at all. A 7486 to boost the clock signal if you use two PDS cards would be a good thing to do though as this constellation might cause problems otherwise.

If you wanted you could even wire up your P33 to the SE/30 PDS using a lot of jumper wires. No magic going on here at all.

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9 hours ago, Bolle said:

This means for a P33 -> SE/30 only adapter there isn't any GAL (or even any chip) needed at all. A 7486 to boost the clock signal if you use two PDS cards would be a good thing to do though as this constellation might cause problems otherwise.

If you wanted you could even wire up your P33 to the SE/30 PDS using a lot of jumper wires. No magic going on here at all.

 

Wow.  That's amazing.   Great work, Bolle!  Thank  you.

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On 6/25/2019 at 10:30 AM, Bolle said:

If you wanted you could even wire up your P33 to the SE/30 PDS using a lot of jumper wires. No magic going on here at all.

Is it possible to buy a PDS flat cable for the DIN-connector?

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2 hours ago, ktkm said:

Is it possible to buy a PDS flat cable for the DIN-connector?

There are .1" pitch ribbon cables.   I don't think I've ever seen a premade cable with a Euro-DIN connector on the end.  I'm also pretty sure that the easily available ribbon cables don't go past 40 or 50 conductors.   I looked into trying to bring the SE/30 CPU socket up with ribbon or flat flex cables some years ago.

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Hi all, I tried adding the jumper to my Twinspark to see what effect it had on my Daystar Turbo 040 - I was blown away by the improvement!

 

The MacBench scores speak for themselves. Below I tested my SE/30 with a Daystar Turbo - one with the Jumper and one without:

 

macbench.png.6c7742d138d58ed05c0f47cb39db06de.png

 

But scores aside, the whole system feels so much faster. Thank you to everyone on this thread!

 

Edit: Here is my jumper, I just used the leg off a resistor lying around:

 

IMG_20190628_204017.thumb.jpg.44e170b5c8a47b7052242d57ff580a7a.jpg

Edited by ants

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On 6/26/2019 at 2:52 PM, trag said:

There are .1" pitch ribbon cables.   I don't think I've ever seen a premade cable with a Euro-DIN connector on the end.  I'm also pretty sure that the easily available ribbon cables don't go past 40 or 50 conductors.   I looked into trying to bring the SE/30 CPU socket up with ribbon or flat flex cables some years ago.

Someone used M-F breadboard wires as a Radius Color Pivot II/IIsi card riser in the SE/30 PDS. You could do the IIci Cache Slot adaptation with those I suppose.

 

I've picked up a few M-F NuBus length rbbon cable assemblies a while back, but never saw them again on eBay.

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On 6/26/2019 at 8:52 PM, trag said:

There are .1" pitch ribbon cables.   I don't think I've ever seen a premade cable with a Euro-DIN connector on the end.  I'm also pretty sure that the easily available ribbon cables don't go past 40 or 50 conductors.   I looked into trying to bring the SE/30 CPU socket up with ribbon or flat flex cables some years ago.

 

Thanks for the tip and good to know!

1 hour ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

Someone used M-F breadboard wires as a Radius Color Pivot II/IIsi card riser in the SE/30 PDS. You could do the IIci Cache Slot adaptation with those I suppose.

Something like this

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7 hours ago, ants said:

Hi all, I tried adding the jumper to my Twinspark to see what effect it had on my Daystar Turbo 040 - I was blown away by the improvement!

Great! What’s the spec on your Daystar Turbo 040? I was going to try it with 040 33 MHz.

7 hours ago, ants said:

But scores aside, the whole system feels so much faster. Thank you to everyone on this thread!

Memory benchmarks doubled in my SE/30—before the jumper it even scored slightly below that of a ’normal’ SE/30.

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8 hours ago, ants said:

macbench.png.6c7742d138d58ed05c0f47cb39db06de.png

 

But scores aside, the whole system feels so much faster. Thank you to everyone on this thread!

 

Wow that’s awesome, so not only PowerCache but Turbo 040 too!  It does make it feel a lot faster.  Without the cache the CPU is always waiting on a 16mhz bus for memory access.

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On 6/26/2019 at 9:57 AM, ktkm said:
On 6/25/2019 at 2:30 AM, Bolle said:

If you wanted you could even wire up your P33 to the SE/30 PDS using a lot of jumper wires. No magic going on here at all.

Is it possible to buy a PDS flat cable for the DIN-connector?

 

Judging from things it ought to be possible, but it doesn’t look like it’s 1:1.

 

Here is a thread by @Von that shows how he did it, so cool.  

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ktkm said:

Great! What’s the spec on your Daystar Turbo 040? I was going to try it with 040 33 MHz.

Mine's a 40mhz with the 128kb cache card.

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7 hours ago, K Trueno said:

Judging from things it ought to be possible, but it doesn’t look like it’s 1:1.

It is absolutely POSITIVELY NOT 1:1 and you'd need to do the IIci Cache Slot adaptation in cable. Bolle's only saying you don't need the GAL.

 

Von's cable extender hack is exactly what I was talking about, you'd need to switch almost every (every?) wire around from motherboard connector to PowerCache/Turbo 040 connector.

 

@Bolle If you wire up one of your adapters to bypass the logic and its latency, will more of your SE/30 boards support multiple cards?

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Gotta do some testing on that...

I will have to modify all my SE/30s anyways so that the cache on all those P33s actually works.

Most of the SE/30s have two PDS cards so we are going to find out how the most commonly used PDS card combos behave.

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On 6/28/2019 at 8:55 PM, K Trueno said:

Here is a thread by @Von that shows how he did it, so cool.  

Now, that is almost precisely the thing I was looking for to build!

Thanks for the tip @K Trueno.

 

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GAL-less adapter here we go...

 

adapter.thumb.png.17e9812e60f4c9cec9866ba5d6189342.png

 

Made a prototype out of one of my existing adapters:

 

IMG_9807.thumb.jpg.0117d733a4564790b1e29f50c438c979.jpg

 

This will run the P33 just fine in the SE/30 with all dual PDS card (MacCon always in the bottom) combinations I could test so far:

-Radius IIsi Pivot

-Radius SE/30 Pivot (not color Pivot)

-Shiva Ethernet card (dual ethernet SE/30 anyone?)

-Formac ProNitron80

-Micron Xceed Color30

 

Nearly all signals are connected straight through. Only the 16MHz clock gets buffered by the 74ACT86. This is needed for some PDS cards, otherwise the logicboard video signal will drop out because the clock line gets too much load from all the cards and the video logic will fail to pick up the low signal.

 

The Turbo040 still won't work as well as the P33.

I noticed that the GAL-based T040 I got from @Udo.Keller is even worse than my later ASIC revision. Different firmware versions on the T040 do not seem to change anything either.

Looks like it helps a bit with timing when inverting the 16MHz signal that goes to the accelerator slot. That way the T040 will work but the P33 won't. Easy to fix that though with a jumper switching between VCC and GND on the ACT86 to invert the clock or not.

The PSU in my barebones testbed SE/30 is getting weak, I'll have to get another one for further testing with the 040 and multiple PDS cards.

Good news for PowerCache users, still somewhat bad news for T040 users. I have heard a few reports of the GAL version performing really bad in the SE/30 (or even other machines it's supposed to work in just fine)

 

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Success... suddenly my board wouldn't boot at all anymore. It was having issues before but was good then again. Looks like the CPU died. Removed it and tested it in another board and it is dead as a doornail.

However upon removing it the full stack of PDS cards started to work with the Turbo040:

 

A8eMwsV.jpg

 

The T040 even works with the MacCon stuck under it. I could never get this to work reliably up to now. If I knew it would have been as simple as inverting that one clock signal.

It is running rock solid for an hour now. Downside is that the P33 won't work with the clock inverted but I might be able to solve that and go completely jumperless on the adapter.

Another mystery solved.

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19 minutes ago, Bolle said:

The T040 even works with the MacCon stuck under it. I could never get this to work reliably up to now. If I knew it would have been as simple as inverting that one clock signal.

It is running rock solid for an hour now. Downside is that the P33 won't work with the clock inverted but I might be able to solve that and go completely jumperless on the adapter.

Another mystery solved.

2

WOW! Super! Great News! 

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On 8/12/2019 at 12:58 PM, Bolle said:

Success... suddenly my board wouldn't boot at all anymore. It was having issues before but was good then again. Looks like the CPU died. Removed it and tested it in another board and it is dead as a doornail.

However upon removing it the full stack of PDS cards started to work with the Turbo040:

 

A8eMwsV.jpg

 

The T040 even works with the MacCon stuck under it. I could never get this to work reliably up to now. If I knew it would have been as simple as inverting that one clock signal.

It is running rock solid for an hour now. Downside is that the P33 won't work with the clock inverted but I might be able to solve that and go completely jumperless on the adapter.

Another mystery solved.

 

If I am interpreting this correctly, does this mean we can run a Turbo 040, MacCon AND a Radius Pivot which wasn't possible before??  Wow!  I thought I was at endgame for SE/30 (3 stack), this might have me looking for a Turbo 040...

Edited by K Trueno

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On 6/7/2019 at 10:44 PM, JDW said:

Do you have the original documentation for it?  I'm curious if Daystar officially says it will work properly in the SE/30, or if it is intended only for the IIci.

I just got the rather thick Daystar PowerCache documentation.  I will scan it today and post it here. 

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