| Author |
Topic |
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Kady Mae
Junior Member
USA
261 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Dec 2003 : 15:11:33
I hate hate hate *nix elitists. The kind that think that the CLI is the end all be all and that everybody should have to learn the deep inner workings of their OS to even be permitted to use a computer.I just let loose on one over at OS News. To Wit: <<Good. Fewer idiots to suffer that way. If you're not willing to put forth the effort, you shouldn't be using a computer in the first place.>>> 1)I'm willing to put forth the effort to become the master of my GUI and its subsystem of menus. 2)I'm willing to put forth the effort to learn many GUI driven programs such as iMovie, Dreamweaver, Photoshop, ect 3)My 80 year old, blind in one eye, severely dyslexic but genius level IQ Great Aunt was willing to put forth the effort to start learning about computers when she was 74. (Mac OS and Windows 95 made this possible for her. It takes her almost an hour to type a few paragraphs, but she loves to send me lovely photos she takes with with her digitial camera.) 4) 50 year old brilliant archivist and technophobe who has worked hard to build up the collection of historical nevada documents and is writing a grant to get them digitized has labored very hard at learning her computer but will never grasp more than the basics. 5) Her widely respected history professor husband just wants to type his next book 6) The nice kid with cerebral palsy can grasp and point the mouse better than he can type. (I wonder how the hell this guy types.) 7) The blind guy doesn't much care for a GUI, but as long as he's got good voice recognition software, he can dictate some great term papers. 8) One of 2 Rhodes Scholars in my state and an internationally renown scholar routenly needs help using the computer to do research. (He also thinks that if you're not reading Chaucer, Langland, and Gower in the original Middle English that's a sign of sloth and you need to put forth the effort.) 9) The film student who works upstairs just wants to get his latest short film edited. He cares more about composing a shot, or lighting, or getting a really cool, easy to use DV camera so he can get on to what he is burning to do than devoting hours of time away from muse to learning the intracacies of the OS on the Mac he's running Final Cut Pro on. So in conclusion:
a) Willingess to learn to use a computer does not = willingness to learn to use a CLI, nor does it = willingness to learn to use a GUI.
b) Intellect/handicap has no bearing on a person's ability to use a computer well, or to learn it to do certain tasks well, given the right interface.
c) Because a person is disinterested in the CLI doesn't mean they are disinterested in learning about computers.
d) There is no one size fits all in how to use a computer or best interface. The true fact of the matter is just as most people don't give a rat's ass about Chaucer in the original dialect they also don't give a rat's ass about the innerworkings of their OS so long as they can accomplish their tasks. Besides which, the moment the IT department got XP boxes to deploy, they locked them down damn tight. (After installing a million and 1 patches). They'd do the same thing with *nix boxes, only more so, so it's not like I could go kanoodling through the more interesting parts of XP if I wanted to devote the effort. And at home where I can run any OS I want? Hell, I'd rather spend my evenings reading a book, and I think computers are wicked keen. :) Your stance is as silly as demanding a person learn astrophyisics just to have the privlidge of gazing at the stars.
68K's liberated: 4
68Ks adopted to loving homes: 2
PowerMacs adopted to loving homes: 2
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Unknown_K
Full Member
USA
602 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2003 : 15:39:48
An OS is just a tool used to interface your application with the hunk of metal and plastic on your desk so that it takes your input and gives the desired output.While knowing how the computer works and what the OS does is helpfull when you have problems, it doesnt mean much on a fully loaded and functional machine once you get into your app and start working. I do expect people to know how to install software, run that software, know how to save files, know where to find those files, get their printer working, and do simple maintenance like virus scans, defrag your HD, and simple backup. Anything you learn above and beyond those functions is usefull but not necessary as long as you know of a place for service and upgrades. There are elitists in any hobby that expect you to know alot more then the basics just because they have invested the time to do so. 
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G4from128k
Full Member
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2003 : 15:57:42
quote:
I hate hate hate *nix elitists. The kind that think that the CLI is the end all be all and that everybody should have to learn the deep inner workings of their OS to even be permitted to use a computer.
Here! Here!Having done everything from assembly language programing for embedded systems to UNIX CLI to Macintosh, I find that CLI is distinctly inferior to GUI for all but a few tasks. I challenge *nix elitists to do any form of word processing from a shell prompt. Even the most hardcore of them will resort to vi or emacs which use a primitive pseudo-GUI (and yes you can create a pure CLI text editor, but it is extremely painful). And CLI's inferiority is not just a matter of the learning curve (although that is a big disadvantage of CLI). For some tasks, a direct-manipulation WYSIWG GUI is vastly superior. I challenge *nix people to build a CLI-only version of Photoshop. This is more that a matter of ease-of-use it is a matter of creating a coordinated interface between a person and a machine. While CLI forces the user to preform a completely defined action (e.g., type in a command that turns pixel 100,103 in file x to RGB value 128,128,200), a GUI lets the user try something (select a paint brush tool from the toolbox, test it somewhere, undo, use the tool somewhere else, etc.) The bottomline is I want to "use" my computer, not "learn" my computer. Although *nix requires you learn before using, some (better designed OSes) don't have such a steep learning curve. What I like is Bill Joy's statement in a recent wired article about Linux vs. Mac -- he choses the Mac because it "just works." G4From128k by Day: Mild-Mannered Engineer and Trapeze(tm) Artist
by Night: Colonel of Truth, Justice, and the Macintosh Way
Reserve Officer in 68kMLA Cantankerous Coot Contingent
Edited by - g4from128k on 16 Dec 2003 15:59:28
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Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER
USA
2899 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2003 : 16:34:26
quote:
. . . CLI's inferiority is not just a matter of the learning curve (although that is a big disadvantage of CLI). For some tasks, a direct-manipulation WYSIWG GUI is vastly superior.
Agreed, and photoshop is an excellent example!However, the Jobsian attitude that mousing menus is always faster than typing in commands can be every bit as bad as the CLI zealot's rantings. Apple's intentional crippling of the Mac's interface with nonsense such as omission of "Save AS" and other command-key shortcuts to force use of pointing devices is absolutely despicable, IMHO. It's well and good that Apple developed the Gui-centric archetype for the design of every modern notebook computer, but "Alt-F-A" in NotePad on a Wintel laptop is MUCH faster than pointing to the "Save As" Menu Command in SimpleText on a PowerBook (or desktop) any day of the week!  Let them have mice use keyboard shortcuts, CLI commands and switches too!  jt  .
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAF Edited by - Trash80toG-4 on 16 Dec 2003 16:38:17 |
G4from128k
Full Member
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2003 : 17:49:36
quote:
However, the Jobsian attitude that mousing menus is always faster than typing in commands can be every bit as bad as the CLI zealot's rantings.
Absolutely! And this highlights another major difference between CLI and GUI. While it is easy to have a keyboard shortcut available and shown in a mouse-oriented graphical GUI menu, it is hard to have a graphical menu shortcut in a keyboard-oriented CLI (and if you did, you'd have a GUI ). With a GUI that shows the shortcuts in the menus, the user can learn shortcuts as they use the machine. Thus, I would argue, a GUI is the superset of a CLI. GUIs also provides visibility on to the set of available commands and functions. By browsing through the menus (which are usually nice organized), you can learn the functions of an application. In contrast, a CLI-only machines provides no obvious way to learn about commands that you did not know existed -- at best you can access an alphabet list of cryptic vowelless cmmand names. Therefore, GUI applications tend to be self-documenting, CLI commands require that you first know of the existence of the command and then you must read the man pages. Most well-behaved GUI applications further support user learning via experimentation by having an undo command (and a revert command). *nix commands tend to be irrevocable with no possibility for undoing inadvertent damage by a novice user (short of reloading the entire machine from a backup). Its no wonder *nix people get upset at the thought of novices on computers. But this lack of an "undo" is the fault of *nix CLI (it could easily be remedied with automatic file version tracking and journaling). So many reasons why GUI is better than CLI. G4From128k by Day: Mild-Mannered Engineer and Trapeze(tm) Artist
by Night: Colonel of Truth, Justice, and the Macintosh Way
Reserve Officer in 68kMLA Cantankerous Coot Contingent
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The Balance Of Judgement
Senior Member
Ivory Coast
1006 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2003 : 18:07:00
Can you imagine George W. Bush luanching a nuclear weapon using CLI? I'd be afraid of any typos he makes.dt = destroy target
dr = destroy rocket You will notice T and R are close on the keyboard. 
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G4from128k
Full Member
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2003 : 18:28:19
quote:
dt = destroy target
dr = destroy rocket
What you really want to use is "kill -9" on your enemies. G4From128k by Day: Mild-Mannered Engineer and Trapeze(tm) Artist
by Night: Colonel of Truth, Justice, and the Macintosh Way
Reserve Officer in 68kMLA Cantankerous Coot Contingent
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The Lightning Stalker
Full Member
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2003 : 18:56:18
How about init 0?The Lightning Stalker Performa 631CD, 7.5.5
LC III Mail Server
Q610
Q650 6400/180 40/1.6G/512k L2/enet/video-in/TV
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Apple IIc 5.25"
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Derekcat
Junior Member
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2003 : 19:51:24
Humm…the only reason I care that the command line exists is cause I find it kinda fun to learn about ~ and for SSH quote:
I do expect people to know how to install software, run that software, know how to save files, know where to find those files, get their printer working, and do simple maintenance like virus scans, defrag your HD, and simple backup. Anything you learn above and beyond those functions is usefull but not necessary as long as you know of a place for service and upgrades.
Amen, but defraging the HD is probly a little too high for most people
service and upgrades - most people probly don't even need those… "hey <friend/reletive>, can ya fix the computer, it said the majiggie had a something with a number?"If I open my window all the bugs will get in…That's just one more reason to use a Mac!
Mac Portable
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The Balance Of Judgement
Senior Member
Ivory Coast
1006 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2003 : 20:33:54
Computers are the "Chameleon Of technology" and as such, users will not always understand every aspect because it never ends in the amount of possibilities. So in some sense, vendors are responsible for educating consumers, and those higher in the ranks are responsible for having proper education, for each Caste, different responsibilities.
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maclover5
LC Doctor/Hot Rodder
Australia
5830 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2003 : 00:36:39
quote:
Amen, but defraging the HD is probly a little too high for most people
service and upgrades - most people probly don't even need those… "hey <friend/reletive>, can ya fix the computer, it said the majiggie had a something with a number?"
Same here...Dad gets me to do anything even remotely technical...even installing software. "**** em" - Jobs in regards to customers
Warrior maclover5
68kMLA
Official 68kMLA Detective
Number of 68ks Liberated: 7
Number of Contraband (PPC) Liberated from the Dumpster: 1 |
cory5412
68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms
USA
4679 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2003 : 10:53:12
I don't mind fixing people's computers for them, but I either want them to learn from me what they'd need to do to fix it on their own in the future, OR leave me along while I'm fixing. To this accord, if I'm fixing someone's computer, I'll often bring the CPU into my own 'lair' (so to speak) to have adequate abilities for fixing it.I do think that people should be able to do stuff with their personal computers, many day to day, week to week and such maintenance tasks, but generally, if you aren't totally abusive to your computer, don't put too much evil freeware shareware and other junk on it, you can go years on it without updating anythying, defragging, shutting down, restarting etc etc. (Even windows 98, I bet, would be able to do that.) Each operating system, each company, each type of processor has it's uberZealots, those who will fight for it until the end. Some platforms (SGI, Sun, etc etc) show it a bit less, but the two big 'parties' so to speak, are the Windows people, and the Mac people. There's also the huge AMD vs. Intel thing always, and always with the battling-and-the-glayven about which cars are the best. I bet that each of us here could rattle off 10 reasons why windows computers should be eradicated from the face of this earth. Just the same as how those CLI lovers (GO DOS!!!) could probably rattle off 10 reasons why GUIs should not exist. Official 68k videographer
Official MLA TourGuide
Editor of the MLAgazine
"I'm just a normal computer geek who somehow landed a social life" |
Alien
Junior Member
Netherlands
269 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2003 : 11:19:24
quote:
Each operating system, each company, each type of processor has it's uberZealots, those who will fight for it until the end.Some platforms (SGI, Sun, etc etc) show it a bit less, [...]
Think so? You should vist comp.sys.* sometime... ,xtG
.tsooJ --
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cd ~; unzip; touch; strip; finger
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sleep |
wisof
Junior Member
USA
257 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2003 : 11:41:30
as a designer, I rely on GUI to get me through a majority of my tasks. Its just the way I work. But CLI does have its place in my world. . .Derekcat said SSH, and I agree. FreeBSD Server Admin through SSH and other things like that should only be done in CLI (as things go much MUCH faster). A while back I was only doing SSH through the GUI, and didn't realize how much extra time the GUI interface added. It does not work the same. The GUI almost seems cumbersome to the CLI in SSH. But this is the only case I can think of for this. Most of the other stuff I do (70-90%) is GUI._____________________________________________
I have a problem with vintage electronics. . .I am working on it. Performa 630CD,Performa637CD,Centris 610,Quadra 630,Quadra 950,Quadra 605,SE,8500/180,G3,Giant 80mb SCSI HD,Giant 100mb SCSI HD |
Clinton
Full Member
USA
700 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2003 : 11:42:56
I am a technophile, and I still prefer a good book over anything one reads on a computer (you could consider me a bibliophile as well, come to think of it)I like nothing more than to curl up on the sofa in front of the wood stove with a blanket and a good book, and read till I cant keep me eyes open. Computer free evenings kick ass. CCC Commander
Promotion: 19 Mar 2003 13:06:30
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Contraband rescued: Power Computing PowerBase 200, a PM 8600/300, and a PM8500/180
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Kady Mae
Junior Member
USA
261 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2003 : 12:29:07
quote:
as a designer, I rely on GUI to get me through a majority of my tasks. Its just the way I work. But CLI does have its place in my world. . .Derekcat said SSH, and I agree. FreeBSD Server Admin through SSH and other things like that should only be done in CLI (as things go much MUCH faster). A while back I was only doing SSH through the GUI, and didn't realize how much extra time the GUI interface added. It does not work the same. The GUI almost seems cumbersome to the CLI in SSH. But this is the only case I can think of for this. Most of the other stuff I do (70-90%) is GUI.
Wisof, have you tried Fugu? Granted, on OSX, the CLI is mega keen and faster if you're doing batch file transfer, but for single file transfer, I can drag and drop faster than I can try and remember and then type the correct command, path, and file name. Also, the terminal was very helpful recently when I went to lay the smack down on some files in my Trash Folder. Despite the fact that I owned the files and they were not locked, I still couldn't trash them, even when logged in as Admin. A sudo rm-ri ~/.Trash (or something like that) later and they were dead. 68K's liberated: 4
68Ks adopted to loving homes: 2
PowerMacs adopted to loving homes: 2
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Unknown_K
Full Member
USA
602 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2003 : 12:37:47
quote:
I don't mind fixing people's computers for them, but I either want them to learn from me what they'd need to do to fix it on their own in the future, OR leave me along while I'm fixing. To this accord, if I'm fixing someone's computer, I'll often bring the CPU into my own 'lair' (so to speak) to have adequate abilities for fixing it.
Same here, I dont like being bothered when working on somebody elses gear so I tell them to drop it off at my house and they can pick it up the next day. I have everything I need here to fix them including any tools needed. Its just alot faster this way.
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maclover5
LC Doctor/Hot Rodder
Australia
5830 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2003 : 21:59:35
IMHO, platform zealots of any stripe are bad...i cant' stand them!"**** em" - Jobs in regards to customers
Warrior maclover5
68kMLA
Official 68kMLA Detective
Number of 68ks Liberated: 7
Number of Contraband (PPC) Liberated from the Dumpster: 1 |
Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER
USA
2899 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2003 : 22:08:32
quote:
IMHO, platform zealots of any stripe are bad...i cant' stand them!
"All computers suck!" -maniacal musing- a.k.a. Dana's Law. . . computing platform zealots produce much higher levels of vacuum. Happy Holidays! jt ™.
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAF |
maclover5
LC Doctor/Hot Rodder
Australia
5830 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2003 : 22:13:23
Oooh yes...forgot about that! "**** em" - Jobs in regards to customers
Warrior maclover5
68kMLA
Official 68kMLA Detective
Number of 68ks Liberated: 7
Number of Contraband (PPC) Liberated from the Dumpster: 1 |
redrouteone
Junior Member
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2003 : 23:21:00
Any person that thinks their way is the best and will not consider other possibilities is an idiot. There is no one solution every problem. --Eric
___________________________
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
--Albert Einstein |
G4from128k
Full Member
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2003 : 14:12:34
quote:
Granted, on OSX, the CLI is mega keen and faster if you're doing batch file transfer, but for single file transfer, I can drag and drop faster than I can try and remember and then type the correct command, path, and file name.
Typing in a path and filename is the worst waste of time and another major reason why CLI sucks. Consider this problem from an information theory standpoint. I usually have between 4 and 16 subdirectories in each directory. In theory it should only take between 2 bits and 4 bits of information to select a subdirectory. At the same time, I have between 5 and 20 characters in the names of most directories. So instead of picking among a few easy to distinguish items in a GUI, I am forced to type in 5 to 20 characters (thats 40 to 160 bits of information) in a CLI. And with a CLI, if I make one tiny spelling error then the entire command fails and I have to retype it. That Sucks G4From128k by Day: Mild-Mannered Engineer and Trapeze(tm) Artist
by Night: Colonel of Truth, Justice, and the Macintosh Way
Reserve Officer in 68kMLA Cantankerous Coot Contingent
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danamania
Official 68k Muse
Australia
1193 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2003 : 14:38:38
quote:
quote:
IMHO, platform zealots of any stripe are bad...i cant' stand them!
"All computers suck!" -maniacal musing- a.k.a. Dana's Law
I'd resisted posting here - actually I'd written up a response or two and just deleted them, cos everyone else has said the same basically =). The short of it from me is that I love CLIs, GUIs, text terminals, small drive systems, huge drive systems, CLI only and GUI only and a mix of both systems. But thats cos part of my use of a computer involves my own enjoyment at just plain using the things. Not everyone's like that, or could be like that, or should be like that. As a machine it's capable of being made to do any job for any person, and SHOULD be - so that the computer works for them, instead of the other way round. dana
(they do suck too. really)
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wisof
Junior Member
USA
257 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2003 : 14:38:48
that sucks a whole lot (in reply to G4's comment)Edited by - wisof on 18 Dec 2003 14:41:26 |
cory5412
68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms
USA
4679 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2003 : 20:07:50
quote:
quote:
Each operating system, each company, each type of processor has it's uberZealots, those who will fight for it until the end.Some platforms (SGI, Sun, etc etc) show it a bit less, [...]
Think so? You should vist comp.sys.* sometime...
Iff'n you're referring to my comment to how some platforms show the zealotness a bit less, then you're probably right, it's because I don't usually go looking for zealotness as far as sgi and sun and vax and apple II and whatever, because the mac and windows zealots and idiots make themselves stand out so much, and I'm glad of that, because as if it's horrible and migrainey enough listening to "Windozers™" and "Macdozers™" go at it, as well as the large number of people who are in that whole AMD vs. Intel battle, and then there's DistroWars™ and such... I guess it's ok with me that many of the smaller platforms' evangelists and stuff stay hidden like that, because that'd be just however many more people just becoming white noise... Just my 2 cents though... Official 68k videographer
Official MLA TourGuide
Editor of the MLAgazine
"I'm just a normal computer geek who somehow landed a social life" |
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Laying down the smack.
68k of the Week: kastegir's PowerBook 180.