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LCDs, CRTs and eyesight

Author	Topic
danamania Official 68k Muse Australia 1193 Posts	Posted - 25 Nov 2003 : 20:41:38 OK. Have to ask a few people (as I know some of you have and use LCDs regularly). Anyone else find them almost unusable? I hadn't had a chance to look at more than a couple over the last few years, and I've put their lack of quality down to just being cheap ones, but recently I've taken a look at LCDs in powerbooks, iBooks, a few apple displays, some dell notebooks and some nice sized Dell and Samsung flat panel monitors, and I don't find any of them even a fifth as good as a CRT. However... I don't think it's an inherent quality of the LCDs themselves, but my own eyesight and perception of the things. To me looking at an iBook gives me a madly washed out bottom of the screen, a strip of reasonable colour in the middle, and almost black at the top. My niece (who owns the iBook) sees barely any difference at all. I can move back about 5ft from the screen and see a more even looking image, but that defeats the purpose of having a nice clear screen!. Powerbook screens seem mildly better, but still pretty useless to me. Larger LCDs I find tend to have a 7-8 inch wide/round "circle" of reasonable quality brightness, fading out to nearly black near the edges. Same as with the iBook, stepping back a ways expands that bright patch to cover most of the screen and then it's much more usable. except for me being miles away from the screen... The only thing I can put it down to is some kind of odd thing with focal length in my eyes. Maybe I have huge old eyes, or polarised eyes, or some crap like that. Oh. an LCD that does work usefully? the 10" screen on my powerbook 540 =) It's mostly bright evenly, even if colours are crap when it comes to photoshop. Not that I tend to do much photoshop on a 640x480 screen :) Anyone else find drastic differences in how they see displays, compared to others? dana
cory5412 68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms USA 4679 Posts	Posted - 25 Nov 2003 : 22:08:16 What I find, is that people complain endlessly about CRTs, without knowing some stuff. For exapmle, I know someone who, from what i can tell, was stupid enough to put his face right up to the screen, and now wears glasses. From what he's said, also the CRTs have affected his brain and vision other ways as well. I like the LCD in my PowerBook, but the fact is, and I can't say that I experience the same problems you do... but there is simply no replacement for my Gateway EV700. It's a big, bulky 17" behemoth. It's not quite beige, it's a great looking monitor, and it sits proud next to my G3. Official 68k videographer Official MLA TourGuide Editor of the MLAgazine "I'm just a normal computer geek who somehow landed a social life"
redrouteone Junior Member USA 226 Posts	Posted - 25 Nov 2003 : 22:36:48 I am very picky about image quality and I know exactly what you mean. The only LCD that I have seen that I like was a 17" that cost about 2 grand. Don't even get me started on plasma displays. Or the fact that most people don't calibrate their displays correctly and when they edit a photo on it they turn the gamma way down. Then when I view it I have to turn up the brightness on my monitor. --Eric ___________________________ I'm like the Pepsi employee that drinks Coke. I work on PCs at work but use a Mac at home
redrouteone Junior Member USA 226 Posts	Posted - 25 Nov 2003 : 22:38:00 I am very picky about image quality and I know exactly what you mean. The only LCD that I have seen that I like was a 17" that cost about 2 grand. Don't even get me started on plasma displays. Or the fact that most people don't calibrate their displays correctly and when they edit a photo on it they turn the gamma way down. Then when I view it I have to turn up the brightness on my monitor. --Eric ___________________________ I'm like the Pepsi employee that drinks Coke. I work on PCs at work but use a Mac at home
Trash80toG-4 NIGHT STALKER USA 2899 Posts	Posted - 25 Nov 2003 : 23:09:34 CRTs are MUCH better in terms of image latency. I spent a good hour last year walking back and forth between the wall of flat panels and the wall of CRTs on display at J&R. They all had exactly the same funky aquarium screensaver running and the image was at least somehwat sharper across the board and entirely unsmeared on the CRTs as opposed to the LCDs. I don't think it's any surprise that I don't remember seeing LCDs displayed next to CRTs in a retail store so that you could make a comparison, they want to sell the LCDs, they still cost a lot more. I'm not sure if I've seen CRT and LCD TVs displayed next to each other for comparison either! I've never thought much about the comparison, LCDs were for laptops and Big@ss CRTs (anything over 19") were for desktops. I don't think many people actually know the difference or really even care about the quality of a good CRT vs. an average one, much less how they would compare with LCDs. jt . Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAF Edited by - Trash80toG-4 on 25 Nov 2003 23:12:41
cory5412 68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms USA 4679 Posts	Posted - 25 Nov 2003 : 23:52:15 That's an interesting thought, about the quality of the LCDs vs. CRTs. Another note, is using monitors in lower resolutions. Sometimes, you need to use a lower resolution, and when you see that on an LCD, you cringe. Whereas, with a CRT, you can smile in delight, while using a 22" VGA monitor at 512 by 384. Even LCDs in Projectors, are getting the boot, as far as quality goes. Many companies that make projectors, are going-way of DLP, (Digital Light Processing, by TI) for a better image that stays truer to color longer. Official 68k videographer Official MLA TourGuide Editor of the MLAgazine "I'm just a normal computer geek who somehow landed a social life"
Unknown_K Full Member USA 602 Posts	Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 01:02:16 In my opinion the only good use of an LCD on the desktop is just for text. If you do alot of programming where you actually type stuff in (c, c++, etc) a large LCD is probably good on your eyes (no flicker). My main monitor is an old Sony 19" 420GS and I wont part with it. LCD's do have alot of problems if your not using its designed resolution, and video still looks crappy even on the newer ones (but its better then the old LCD's). With CRT's so cheap these days its a no brainer going for a large crt with good dot pitch and refresh rate then getting a small expensive LCD. Only problem is alot of manufacturers are ditching CRT displays because there is alot more profit in LCD's so your options are narrowing on CRT's.
cory5412 68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms USA 4679 Posts	Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 02:26:30 Yes, I also would agree with that, about the CRTs getting less expensive. One that I particularly like, I'm not sure if it's sitll being made, was made by NEC. Accusync 50. It's a small lil' bugger, but it's got a real clear picture, you can order an audio equipped tilt/swivel base, and it's aesthetically pleasant. I wanted to get one when I first got my TiBook, and I still want one now, except it would probably be used with my G3. Official 68k videographer Official MLA TourGuide Editor of the MLAgazine "I'm just a normal computer geek who somehow landed a social life"
danamania Official 68k Muse Australia 1193 Posts	Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 03:04:55 quote: CRTs are MUCH better in terms of image latency. I spent a good hour last year walking back and forth between the wall of flat panels and the wall of CRTs on display at J&R. That's about the only thing about LCDs I see any agreement on :). I know people who won't touch a CRT again, and others like me who adore the things. The speed of displays is getting better though, which is neat. Bit by bit things change. After all, a $200 CRT from 1985 compared to one from 1995 compared to one from today show a world of difference. I'm not sure I'd be happy with the iBook screen even for plain text work/browsing & so on, really. Pity, cos otherwise they're excellent little things! dana
cory5412 68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms USA 4679 Posts	Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 04:07:51 Just make sure that the iBook's graphic chipset can support slightly better resolutions, and alls you'd need to do, in order to make it work better, is remove the screen, do a bit of casework, and instead of having hinges, you could put a nice VGA port right there smack dab on the back of the unit. Then take out that silly little "combo out" port. Get yourself a nice Proxima or InFocus projector, and you've got a smashing combination for presentations, bigscreen gaming, viewing movies, or just about anythying. Official 68k videographer Official MLA TourGuide Editor of the MLAgazine "I'm just a normal computer geek who somehow landed a social life"
danamania Official 68k Muse Australia 1193 Posts	Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 04:23:28 quote: Get yourself a nice Proxima or InFocus projector, and you've got a smashing combination for presentations, bigscreen gaming, viewing movies, or just about anythying. Or just fold it up and stick it inside an emptied out Q605 case, and with a little tape and velcro... =) dana
cory5412 68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms USA 4679 Posts	Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 04:44:46 You could always get a VGA adaptor, and instead of borking the 605, you could show the world the glory of 68ks, in 800 by 600 measured in feets (or meters) goodness. (that would be very cool, get a good 800 by 600 projector, just set up any random spot in town, and show off the world of 68k macs) Official 68k videographer Official MLA TourGuide Editor of the MLAgazine "I'm just a normal computer geek who somehow landed a social life"
CmdrPlunge Starting Member USA 29 Posts	Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 07:41:44 Yeah I notice similar things as what Dana described, but not as severe. When I first printed something off of my iMac, I thought damn, that's friggin dark, are my print settings right? I have since set the gamma to Windows/TV, it helps a little, but is still mostly washed out. The other day I was quite pleased, I scanned a VHS cover on my Performa 630, transferred it to my iMac, used Photoshop Levels window to sample the white backing of the scanner cover (the only color correction), cropped it, opened it in Illustrator, printed it with cut marks (to fit a CD case cover), and the color tones, brightness, etc. are exactly the same same as the original. I actually find myself sometimes tilting the display to make the image brighter or darker, to see better details of darker, or lighter images. I agree whole heartedly that CRTs are superior to LCDs in color correctness, and evenness. One thing I absolutely adore about the LCD is no flicker. On my moms Gateway (EV700) the refresh rate is always set low, I would go into the display settings to crank up the refresh rate just to make looking at the screen tolerable. Sometimes when I play a game on it that changes the resolution, the refresh rate is low; quit the game, change the resolution to what the game uses, fix the refresh, run the game. All in all, I like the LCD on the iMac. For what I do (a little of everything), it is plenty good. ---------------------- Macs liberated: 2 Macs Owned: 3 Cat vs. SE
Trash80toG-4 NIGHT STALKER USA 2899 Posts	Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 12:50:19 quote: quote: CRTs are MUCH better in terms of image latency. I spent a good hour last year walking back and forth between the wall of flat panels and the wall of CRTs on display at J&R. That's about the only thing about LCDs I see any agreement on :). I know people who won't touch a CRT again, and others like me who adore the things. Big@ss.CRT.Liberation.Army jt ™. Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAF
G4from128k Full Member USA 873 Posts	Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 12:58:12 I can understand where Dana is coming from -- LCDs don't emit light evenly in all colors in all directions the way that CRTs do. Nonetheless, I much prefer LCDs. CRTs drive me nuts with convergence problems, color shifts, focus, aliasing of dot patterns, and fuzzy text. The mask wires on old trinitron tubes are obnoxious, and flicker makes me psychotic. Mind you, I only like LCDs that have a digital interface to the computer (DVI or ADC). LCDs with VGA connections suck because they try to display a mushy analog signal on a crisp pixels of the LCD. The result is fuzziness and jitter that is worse than that seen on CRTs. G4From128k by Day: Mild-Mannered Engineer and Trapeze(tm) Artist by Night: Colonel of Truth, Justice, and the Macintosh Way Reserve Officer in 68kMLA Cantankerous Coot Contingent
Derekcat Junior Member USA 342 Posts	Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 15:01:43 Humm… I've never had many problems with either… the worst thing I get with LCDs is when my 5300ce [active matrix]'s screen is tilted too far, then everything gets washed… And on my dad's iMac, sometimes things seem a little too dark, but a slight readjustment usually fixes that… as for CRTs… I've got no problems… unless I try to un-focus on them for a while… o_O heh If I open my window all the bugs will get in…That's just one more reason to use a Mac! Mac Portable LC \|\| SE/30 \|\|si \|\|ci Quadras: 660av, 950 PMs: 6100/G3/233, 6214CD, 5400/120, 7100/80av, 9500/G3/300 PB 5300ce SuperMac C600 180, 240

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