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What to do with 14 PowerEdge 1300 Servers?

Author	Topic
wisof Junior Member USA 257 Posts	Posted - 07 Nov 2003 : 15:32:45 I am responsible for a lab upgrade for the summer/fall of 2004. This is a design school, and the students are currently using a specialized lab with some old PowerEdge 1300 Servers running as workstations. They are dual 700MHZ Pentium IIIs with 1GB of ram (maxed) two hard drives each (40GB + 80GB). the question is not what we will upgrade to, but what to do with the PowerEdge servers after the upgrade? I want to do something to benefit the students and I was thinking of setting up a render farm. Many programs we use come with render farm software. 3D Studio, FormZ, Maya, and Autodesk products include this software when you buy the educational versions (commercial too, I think). Also, could make a linux cluster for a 1.6TB file server. The project wont be critical till next summer, but I want to start thinking about what will happen to those machines. I have become much more of a machine recycler since I joined the 68kMLA, and I would love to see these old servers work together to do some cool stuff. _____________________________________________ I have a problem with vintage electronics. . .I am working on it. Performa 630CD,Performa637CD,Centris 610,Quadra 630,Quadra 950,Quadra 605,SE,8500/180,G3,Giant 80mb SCSI HD,Giant 100mb SCSI HD
Unknown_K Full Member USA 602 Posts	Posted - 07 Nov 2003 : 17:44:19 The problem you have is that the liscence for all that software will probably get transfered to the new machines your upgrading to. Are those computers school property or are they leased? Alot of places are funny about keeping older equipment because then they have to keep updating the liscense also (added costs). If I was you I would ask around the engineering/fine arts buildings to see if they could use then for cad/simulation/graphic machines (thats after you find out what the policy is for obsolete and/or surplus equipment). Making another server means having somebody take care of it which means more money spent.
wisof Junior Member USA 257 Posts	Posted - 07 Nov 2003 : 19:17:15 we have an assload of licenses. Including a site license for Autodesks' academic program, which means unlimited use of its software. we can put it on as many machines as we want, as long as we get authorization numbers from them, so they can keep tabs on whats going on. As far as those machines, our college purchased them. the policy for old equipment is to go through the distribution center for recycling. . .but thats when it is dead and done, or the school simply can't house the machines anymore. you are right about the licenses for some of the other software though. I don't know if making a rendering farm would require a license for each rendering node. more research to be done. I just think it would be rad to cluster all of those together. . . _____________________________________________ I have a problem with vintage electronics. . .I am working on it. Performa 630CD,Performa637CD,Centris 610,Quadra 630,Quadra 950,Quadra 605,SE,8500/180,G3,Giant 80mb SCSI HD,Giant 100mb SCSI HD
Trash80toG-4 NIGHT STALKER USA 2899 Posts	Posted - 07 Nov 2003 : 19:59:28 quote: I don't know if making a rendering farm would require a license for each rendering node. more research to be done. I just think it would be rad to cluster all of those together. . . Definitely check into it, but I doubt that would be the case. It's still only one copy of the program running at any given time on all those machines as if they were one multiprocessor CPU isn't it? jt ™. Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAF
Unknown_K Full Member USA 602 Posts	Posted - 07 Nov 2003 : 20:27:41 quote: quote: I don't know if making a rendering farm would require a license for each rendering node. more research to be done. I just think it would be rad to cluster all of those together. . . Definitely check into it, but I doubt that would be the case. It's still only one copy of the program running at any given time on all those machines as if they were one multiprocessor CPU isn't it? jt ™. Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAF I thaught a renderfarm had each system loaded with the same software and just processed a small chunk of the whole project instead of the whole thing. That way all your sending to each machine is the data to be rendered and not the command how to do it (would kill network traffic and slow things down alot). So unless somebody really needs a renderfarm, or wants to maybe turn them into a small linux not-so-supercomputer they are better off sent to people who have a valid use and are short a few machines or the budget to buy new ones.
maclover5 LC Doctor/Hot Rodder Australia 5830 Posts	Posted - 07 Nov 2003 : 20:37:34 That would make an awesome SETI cluster... "**** em" - Jobs in regards to customers Warrior maclover5 68kMLA Official 68kMLA Detective Number of 68ks Liberated: 7 Number of Contraband (PPC) Liberated from the Dumpster: 1
Trash80toG-4 NIGHT STALKER USA 2899 Posts	Posted - 07 Nov 2003 : 20:43:05 quote: I thaught a renderfarm had each system loaded with the same software and just processed a small chunk of the whole project instead of the whole thing. That way all your sending to each machine is the data to be rendered and not the command how to do it (would kill network traffic and slow things down alot). Dunno, I'm only familiar with the way RocketShare used to do multiprocessor tasks back in the day, or the way it was INTENDED to work anyway. I never did get a second one! IIRC, each CPU was treated over AppleTalk as if it were a pipeline within one big CPU, getting its instructions and data to process from the main machine running one program, just like a dual proc rig would apply a filter in PhotoShop in tandem. The way my vinyl cutting system works is a cutting subset version of the program installed on a second machine that will run as long as it's networked to the design station with the dongle attached. It will be interesting to find out how render farm licensing really works. jt ™. Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAF
wisof Junior Member USA 257 Posts	Posted - 07 Nov 2003 : 20:55:20 well, count me on the job. I have a long week coming up of figuring out how to bring our entire system up to date. I don't think it will take much. the reason I keep talking about a rendering farm is that when students are learning animation in formz, 3ds, or maya, they tend to do their animations on the workstations. that can take anywhere from 5 minutes to 5 days depending on how much geometry/lighting/glass/reflection they are working into the model. That means we have less machines for students to use. This becomes a problem when a class has to use the lab and half of them are rendering. and its not just my crazy idea. . .the dean of the college has talked to me about it, and he digs the idea! _____________________________________________ I have a problem with vintage electronics. . .I am working on it. Performa 630CD,Performa637CD,Centris 610,Quadra 630,Quadra 950,Quadra 605,SE,8500/180,G3,Giant 80mb SCSI HD,Giant 100mb SCSI HD
cory5412 68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms USA 4679 Posts	Posted - 07 Nov 2003 : 21:49:25 What kind of macyhines are they? (like, form factor?) if they're minitowers or something like that, you could make a "practice lab" full of machines that are basically expendable. Our practice lab for the Intro ty comp. systems class are mostly 233 ~ish machines running Win98... (dual P3-700s are better for renderfarms I'd say...) Another thought, is to put them in general circulation as general purpose workstations... Maybe add projectors and soundcards and make them multimedia presentation machines.... put them on carts in the hallways and make them public access terminals for general internet and stuff? Maybe a language arts or social studies teacher might need a few good workstations for their students (of course, this's at a college, not a HS huh?) render farm slash IT practice lab seems like a good idea.... Official 68k videographer Official MLA TourGuide Editor of the MLAgazine "I'm just a normal computer geek who somehow landed a social life"
G4from128k Full Member USA 873 Posts	Posted - 08 Nov 2003 : 08:39:42 If an actual renderfarm is not possible, you could create a render-lab setup. Since rendering does not need a dedicated monitor and keyboard, you could gang 4 old machines and a KVM to a single monitor/keyboard/mouse. (You could even hierarchically stage the KVMs so that a single monitor/keybaord/mouse is the interface on to all 14 machines). Students would be told to run their rendering on one of the older machines and leave the newer machines for interactive work. When a student wants to render, they go over to one of the render-lab monitors, flip the KVM til they find a free machine and then start their rendering job. Its not as cool as a renderfarm, but it would help utilize the old machines and keep the new machiens available for actual work. G4From128k by Day: Mild-Mannered Engineer and Trapeze(tm) Artist by Night: Colonel of Truth, Justice, and the Macintosh Way Reserve Officer in 68kMLA Cantankerous Coot Contingent
Gothikon Full Member Australia 537 Posts	Posted - 09 Nov 2003 : 03:34:17 As far as a render farm goes it sounds like a good idea. Licensing depends from product to product. IIRC Maxon who make cinema 4D sell a special version purely for running on a render farm node, obviously it's a lot cheaper but I don't think it's free. It's certainly not the same as having one copy running on one machine when you have 20 copies working in a render farm and one being opperated by a person. Anyway it varies from product to product so you'd need to check it out either way. -------- Apple ][e. Apple ][gs, LC 3, Q605, Perf 638, Colour Classic (300 603ev) 2*6100, 7200, PTP 225 (Quad 604), G4 Cube
Clinton Full Member USA 700 Posts	Posted - 10 Nov 2003 : 09:59:13 quote: What kind of macyhines are they? (like, form factor?) if they're minitowers or something like that, you could make a "practice lab" full of machines that are basically expendable. Our practice lab for the Intro ty comp. systems class are mostly 233 ~ish machines running Win98... (dual P3-700s are better for renderfarms I'd say...) Another thought, is to put them in general circulation as general purpose workstations... Maybe add projectors and soundcards and make them multimedia presentation machines.... put them on carts in the hallways and make them public access terminals for general internet and stuff? Maybe a language arts or social studies teacher might need a few good workstations for their students (of course, this's at a college, not a HS huh?) render farm slash IT practice lab seems like a good idea.... cory, you don't want to use server class machines for workstations. it would waste them. What did you mean by render farm slash it practice lab? as in dual booting the machines? If so, that would not work either, since you do not want to have to boot the farm at the start of class. anyhoo, render farm, or some other kind of SMP application sounds cool. Maya really works well for that kind of thing. CCC Commander Promotion: 19 Mar 2003 13:06:30 68k Macs Rescued: 2 Pluses, a 512KE, a Classic II, a Q650, a Q660AV, an SE/30, and a MacII Contraband rescued: Power Computing PowerBase 200, a PM 8600/300, and a PM8500/180 Apple //s rescued: Apple //e
cory5412 68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms USA 4679 Posts	Posted - 10 Nov 2003 : 10:07:56 How is college organized? IIRC< you go by days right? Maybe if on monday and thursday the lab goes to rendering and on tuesday and friday, they're practice machines for an IT class... This does not mean dual booting, and from what it looks like, they're already used as workstations anyway, right? Mostly the "practice lab" thing goes with machiens that are basically expendable.. Official 68k videographer Official MLA TourGuide Editor of the MLAgazine "I'm just a normal computer geek who somehow landed a social life"
q950 Junior Member USA 135 Posts	Posted - 10 Nov 2003 : 11:10:13 What you could do with them would be to make a practice lab and put removable hard drive trays in them for the different classes. I goto a programming class and for that class they are loaded with the win2k pro OS and lots of development software. When the network administration class wants to come in they take the disks out and put in Win2k server drives and let the kids work on those. That way its easy to repair damage if someone screws up something like their registry also to switch between the different classes. I think they also teach a class in there on OS's and they have some HD's with stuff like linux on them. I think the drive trays are a great idea, it makes it so each person practically has their own computer to work on, unrestricted by passwords and with total control. You cant do that with a fixed drive. You could apply that here and just stick in the render farm drives during art classes, the Server OS during network admin classes and let kids terminal in. XP drives for general use and let people terminal in from a cheap old desktop machines. That way they could run headless, everything would be remotely administered. Thats probably one of the ways that they were designed to work as anyways. Logan Quadra 950, Workgroup Server 9150, Performa 6400, Powerbook 2300c, 4x Quadra 700's, iBook
cory5412 68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms USA 4679 Posts	Posted - 10 Nov 2003 : 19:18:14 yes, actually that is a very good idea. Rendering hard drives could also be left in and used overnight, or a few of the machines could be left with each different "setup" per se... Official 68k videographer Official MLA TourGuide Editor of the MLAgazine "I'm just a normal computer geek who somehow landed a social life"
wisof Junior Member USA 257 Posts	Posted - 11 Nov 2003 : 08:56:06 innnnteresting
The Balance Of Judgement Senior Member Ivory Coast 1006 Posts	Posted - 11 Nov 2003 : 09:15:04 The idea of having hot swap drives appeals in a school enviroment but perhaps not in a way that benefits you here unless you saw it as a valuable tool. Each student recieves a hot swap drive and pays a deposit on it. This drive is thier responsibility, in order to work on a machine they have to have this drive. (Machines are driveless) As long as the machines are universal, drives can be swapped among machines with no consequence regardless of OS except maybe XP which freaks if your hardware hash changes. But in this model, a student can use any desired software or X86 OS to do thier work. The drive is thiers so thier work is seperate from others. Any viruses or glitches are contained in thier hard disk. When they want to use a machine, they plug in thier drive, boot the machine up, let it work and be sure to lock the machine so other's can't mess nothing up. Anyways, unless a school has big money for that many hot swap drives it might be useless. But even though risk of theft/damage is there..the school no longer has to patroll the machines because each user is responsible for thier own drives. The school is just loaning the disk capacity and hardware. No longer can one rogue user mess up computers because each drive is independant....any viruses or other malice would be contained to that box unable to spread to each machine in the usual manner. Future 101.
Unknown_K Full Member USA 602 Posts	Posted - 11 Nov 2003 : 12:44:02 Driveless machines brings up the software liscence again. 100 people with removable drives cant have the same software loaded into them.
cory5412 68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms USA 4679 Posts	Posted - 12 Nov 2003 : 06:20:15 they can with the appropriate liscences! That is an interesting quandry, and fromwhat it appears to be, the student would be able to load their own os, which means if you want XP pro, Office 2k3 and photoshop (whatever the latest version is called) then you buy that software on your own. That having been said, it would probably be cheaper for the students to cart in their own machines, iffn' they had to buy that much software huh? I'm almost certain that most rendering and educational 'versions' of most software can be bought with a site liscence that allows everyone on the site to use the software... (Other software too) (I might be wrong though) The only problem then, is the thought that MS would probably keel over if they had any idea that people wanted something like this (because we know how much money they'd probably lose, but they might make more, because more people would buy it legally, which would mean better for education institutes, the people, AND MS! (wow, that went nowhere...) Another idea, is to have hte lab in it's own room, with the 28 hdds at a desk with a signin/out sheet, that tells which drive you got (they're labeled!) and which machine you used it in. There'll be an info-poster at the desk as well, telling which drives are loaded up with what OSs and configured to do which things. Near that desk, is also some network cables and other things. At any given time, there's probably three or four totally blank hard drives. This way, anyone who needs to do anything can come here. For example, there'll probably be about 10 hdds loaded up with XP pro and all the "normal" software, including some rendering stuff, development tools, Office and the like, this'll be connected to the normal school network (activedirectory, domain and such) Then there'll be the IT class drives (some 2kpro, nt and other OSs configured to work within a small circle of machines in that lab) then the rendering drives (which could be xp home or pro (because thy're not really going to be all on the network)) with the workstation locked (because who wants to sit in that place for howevermany hours it's going to take to render your stuff? ) Official 68k videographer Official MLA TourGuide Editor of the MLAgazine "I'm just a normal computer geek who somehow landed a social life"
Unknown_K Full Member USA 602 Posts	Posted - 12 Nov 2003 : 06:50:26 I dont see why a university would want to sink more money into a project that nobody asked for in the first place. Put a list together of the machines and specs and circulate it to all the departments and see who needs what and go from there. They are decent machines even though they will be "surplus" next year. Somebody probably needs a few here and there but cant afford new machines on their budget.
wisof Junior Member USA 257 Posts	Posted - 16 Nov 2003 : 09:17:43 and, unfortunately, our student population would not be interested in that solution. They are very saavy with software, but hardware scares em. The solution would work, but only a small percentage of the population would accept it. we are hard pressed for space, but I think we could come up with enough for a few rendering set ups. Set up 2 or 3 clusters for rendering. hmmmm. giving them away at this stage of the game is not much of an option either, as the money for the labs comes from student fees. the students own them, and they ultimately decide if they stay or go. While we have em, I get to allocate them. But it is them that want other solutions before giving the machines away. _____________________________________________ I have a problem with vintage electronics. . .I am working on it. Performa 630CD,Performa637CD,Centris 610,Quadra 630,Quadra 950,Quadra 605,SE,8500/180,G3,Giant 80mb SCSI HD,Giant 100mb SCSI HD
The Lightning Stalker Full Member USA 747 Posts	Posted - 17 Nov 2003 : 17:02:56 Microsoft would be scared by the idea of students carrying around software they didn't buy on their own hard drives. They could just pop the drive into their computer at home and copy the cabs and they have a whole new OS. I suppose though it would be okay as long as you keep all the setup files off of there. The Lightning Stalker Performa 631CD, 7.5.5 LC III Mail Server Q610 Q650 6400/180 40/1.6G/512k L2/enet/video-in/TV 7600/120 '604/233, 80/1.2G & 4G, 9.2.2 (Main Mac) Lady Smith Apples: Apple IIc 5.25" 2 Apple IIe
The Lightning Stalker Full Member USA 747 Posts	Posted - 17 Nov 2003 : 17:04:13 Oh, and if they do decide to give them away, I could use one. They probably won't want to give them to non-students, though.

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