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Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 19 Sep 2003 :  09:14:44
I'm finally getting around to hacking my SE.

My first task will be a hard drive upgrade. I was planning to replace the original 40m drive with an APS 1g external SCSI (removed from the case) I have laying around. Trouble is, I don't know if the speed of the 1g drive will be too fast for the SE to support. I've heard that the maximum for the SE is around 5400 revs. Any truth to this? I don't even know how fast the 1g spins. Any idea on how I can determine this? The original manuals are long gone and the drive is long out of date with APS.

Alternatively, I have a 160m drive from an old IIcx that is an option. I know that this drive doesn't spin too fast for the SE, but I want to use the 1g drive in the SE!!!

Can I get away with using the 1g? I want the SE to smoke, but not literally.


<b>Hobbes</b><p>
<i><u>They all purr:</u></i><p>
<i>Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)</i>

tmtomh
Junior Member


USA
172 Posts
Posted - 19 Sep 2003 :  13:42:17
I've never, ever heard of a hard drive smaller than 2GB having a 7,200rpm rotational speed. In fact, as recently as 1997, Quantum was making 2GB Fireball TM drives that had 4500rpm speeds. So your APS drive is likely not even 5400rpm, let alone 7200.

Matt

No rank

Permanent 68k roommates:
- "PowerMystic" Color Classic, custom silver case, 66MHz PPC601 card, full '040, 128/2G/enet, OS 8.1
- "Mystic" Color Classic, full '040, 36/700/enet, OS 8.1Go to Top of Page

Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 19 Sep 2003 :  19:19:33
Thanks Matt. It's going in. By the way, it's a Quantum Fireball 1080S in an APS housing, bought in 1997-ish, so it's probably safe.

After that, in go a superdrive floppy, modem and CD slot loader. After that, a serious custom case hack and paint job.

Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)Go to Top of Page

tmtomh
Junior Member


USA
172 Posts
Posted - 19 Sep 2003 :  21:00:46
The 1080S is a 5400rpm drive. You should be fine with that in the SE. To be honest, I've never heard of any rotational speed limitation for an SE. What I have heard is that with a Mac Plus one may need to reformat HDs to have their data sent to the computer more slowly. But (a) I've never read that for the SE, and (b) it has nothing to do with the drive's rotational speed.

Anyway, have fun!

Matt

No rank

Permanent 68k roommates:
- "PowerMystic" Color Classic, custom silver case, 66MHz PPC601 card, full '040, 128/2G/enet, OS 8.1
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Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 20 Sep 2003 :  04:52:01
On a related issue...

I thought about replacing the SE board with an SE/30 board. Since I haven't had much luck finding the board, I got to thinking: what about the LC and Performa boards that Colour Classic hackers use for Mystic and Takki upgrades? There seem to be lots of these floating around -- and affordable too. Will any of these boards fit the SE, which is comparable in size to the CC? Obviously, the colour option on the board is out, but there are so many other benefits that it doesn't matter. Could it work (without a hacksaw)?

Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)Go to Top of Page

tmtomh
Junior Member


USA
172 Posts
Posted - 20 Sep 2003 :  06:21:37
Unfortunately none of those motherboards will work in an SE. The only way to do that sort of thing in an SE is to replace both the motherboard and the video circuitry/analog board. Stuart Bell, who moderates the Color Classic forum at Applefritter, has an "SE/475" project in the works on his Colour Classic web site:

http://www.stuartbell.dsl.pipex.com/PowerCC/PMGSP/PMGSP.html

It's interesting, but it's a lot of work. I've done something similar to what Stuart describes, putting the guts of an Apple 13" high-res monitor into a Color Classic and hooking up a 6360 motherboard to it. It works, but it's not as elegant a solution as a regular Takky.

Matt

No rank

Permanent 68k roommates:
- "PowerMystic" Color Classic, custom silver case, 66MHz PPC601 card, full '040, 128/2G/enet, OS 8.1
- "Mystic" Color Classic, full '040, 36/700/enet, OS 8.1

Edited by - tmtomh on 20 Sep 2003 06:22:31Go to Top of Page

Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 20 Sep 2003 :  09:02:22
Arrrrrgggg!

I checked out Bell's project and that's a lot of work for someone who doesn't have a deathwish. I'll have to stick with what I've got. Thanks for the link.

Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)Go to Top of Page

cory5412
68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms


USA
4679 Posts
Posted - 21 Sep 2003 :  01:39:28
You could put a CD drive in it? or install a *nix and make it a server, and make it so that it shows the access logs for apache scroll by on the screen, and have fun...

one way to make logs get bigger would be to run MySQL and PHP and put a forum on there (just my 2¢)

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Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 21 Sep 2003 :  02:38:08
Yep, a slot-loader cd is going in if I can find one on eBay with a 50-pin SCSI interface. There are billions of tray-loaders that meet the specs, but I think the hack will look better and be easier with a slot-loader.

I'll try to keep the floppy drive in if I can get all three drives to stack on top of each other (HD, floppy, cd). Thing is, the floppy is 800k, and if I can't find those three chips that allow the SE to read 1.4 flops then I'm gonna take it out (I have an external FDHD I can use when needed). On the subject, does the Classic use those three chips in order to run a Superdrive? I've got a spare Classic that reads 1.4 flops, and I'm wondering if I can scavage the chips from it and put them in the SE.

Honestly, I would perform all these hacks on the Classic, since it's a much more attractive box then the SE (I think). The determining factor is the Classic's viewable screen, which is much smaller than the SE because of those half-inch dark borders on the top and bottom of the screen -- know what I mean? I thought it was just my Classic at first, but every Classic I've seen has that irritatingly reduced viewable screen. Shame.

Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)

Edited by - hobbes on 21 Sep 2003 03:06:21Go to Top of Page

maclover5
LC Doctor/Hot Rodder


Australia
5830 Posts
Posted - 21 Sep 2003 :  04:01:19
SEs should have the same viewable size. Yours has probably just been adjusted. Grab the service manual off Gamba's server and if you're comfortable enough with doing it, adjust the Height and Width controls on the Classic analog board. Thankfully, the Classic and Classic II are the only two compact Macs where you don't have to open them up to do any adjustments...there's a panel on the back that unclips, and you can do all the "dangerous" adjustments without taking the case off! You're still better off doing the SE though...logic board upgrade to an SE/30! *drools*

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Warrior maclover5
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Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 21 Sep 2003 :  04:59:28
Yes yes yes! An SE/30 upgrade works for me in my utopian Elvis chair, but I can't find any SE/30 logics floating around! It would be easier to find a whole SE/30 box. Think so?

Yes yes yes(2)! A try on the Classic screen fix is in order. Thanks for the tip on Gamba. But I have never been able to access Gamba. I always get the message from Earthlink that the site has exceeded its allowable usage quota. Any workaround here?

Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)

Edited by - hobbes on 21 Sep 2003 05:09:11Go to Top of Page

maclover5
LC Doctor/Hot Rodder


Australia
5830 Posts
Posted - 21 Sep 2003 :  05:35:57
ftp://ftp.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Misc/Service/servicemanuals/classic_ii.performa_200.pdf

Thats the direct link to Apple.

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Warrior maclover5
68kMLA

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Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 21 Sep 2003 :  06:10:55
quote:

ftp://ftp.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Misc/Service/servicemanuals/classic_ii.performa_200.pdf

I think this is a dead link. Gettin' nothin'. But I checked around the apple site, even deep into the manual recesses and couldn't find any service manuals. Only a vanilla user spec sheet for the Performa 200.

Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)Go to Top of Page

maclover5
LC Doctor/Hot Rodder


Australia
5830 Posts
Posted - 21 Sep 2003 :  06:14:40
Damnit. I HATE how sneaky Apple is with service manuals. I have the Classic II service manual. If you want, i'll email it to you when i get a chance.

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Warrior maclover5
68kMLA

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Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 21 Sep 2003 :  07:03:48
That would be great! Thanks a kabillion.

Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)Go to Top of Page

maclover5
LC Doctor/Hot Rodder


Australia
5830 Posts
Posted - 21 Sep 2003 :  09:19:29
Damnit...neither snotmail nor Yahoo want to send it...

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Warrior maclover5
68kMLA

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Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 22 Sep 2003 :  00:51:56
Dang!

Well, if you can ever get it to work, I'd be mighty glad to get it. Same thing for anyone else who could get me the service manual online. Thanks.

Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)Go to Top of Page

maclover5
LC Doctor/Hot Rodder


Australia
5830 Posts
Posted - 22 Sep 2003 :  02:47:32
I have put together a page containing all the information from the Video adjustments section of the service manual, which you can find here.

Good luck, and have fun!

"**** em" - Jobs in regards to customers
Warrior maclover5
68kMLA

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Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 22 Sep 2003 :  09:34:15
Huzzah!!!

Thanks for the page. I'll try the fix tonight.

Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)Go to Top of Page

maclover5
LC Doctor/Hot Rodder


Australia
5830 Posts
Posted - 22 Sep 2003 :  16:18:56
Great. Tell us how it goes!

"**** em" - Jobs in regards to customers
Warrior maclover5
68kMLA

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Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 23 Sep 2003 :  13:18:05
Huzzah! The video fix worked!

I'm just about to swap the Classic's 80m HD for a 1g HD, but for one concern: I know the Classic will support the 5400 revs of the new drive, but what's the worst that can happen if it proves too burdensome for the old Mac? A burnt power supply? Something easily replaceable, right? I do have a spare 160m...

Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)Go to Top of Page

maclover5
LC Doctor/Hot Rodder


Australia
5830 Posts
Posted - 23 Sep 2003 :  15:07:58
It should be fine...it does have a fairly good fan in there...

"**** em" - Jobs in regards to customers
Warrior maclover5
68kMLA

Official 68kMLA Detective
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Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 24 Sep 2003 :  07:58:12
OK, I've the 1g drive in the Classic now, but there's a problem: it won't recognize the HD. It gave me the question mark floppy when I switched it on, so I booted it with Disk Tools for 7.5.3. Neither Drive Setup nor Disk First Aid can even see the drive. I know the drive it not faulty because I tested it before it went in, and everything is hooked up properly (power and SCSI cables). When I switch the Classic on, the HD clicks about 3 times before for the question-floppy comes up. Any idea of what's going on?

Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)Go to Top of Page

Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts
Posted - 24 Sep 2003 :  08:21:51
quote:

When I switch the Classic on, the HD clicks about 3 times before for the question-floppy comes up. Any idea of what's going on?


If it's just clicking and not spinning up at all, it sounds like there's not enough power for it to do so. What's the power required for the drive? The amount of excess power available for expansion in the compacts was negligible.

jt .
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAFGo to Top of Page

Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 24 Sep 2003 :  08:39:40
Oh %@^%£^@&**!!&&.


Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)Go to Top of Page

Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 24 Sep 2003 :  08:43:33
Have punched hole in wall. Feel better now.

The pwer required to run the former drive (80m Quantum ProDrive ELS) is 5/12V. I don't know about the newer drive. Don't think 5/12V is enough to run a 1g drive?

What about this: the 1g came out of an external setup. Before removing, I clicked the manual SCSI address to 0, so it would run as the default drive in the Classic. Could this be the (a) problem?

Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)

Edited by - hobbes on 24 Sep 2003 08:47:47Go to Top of Page

0tto
Starting Member


Norway
2 Posts
Posted - 24 Sep 2003 :  13:56:52
I dont think 7.5.3 Disk Tools is able to see the drive if its not an Apple-branded drive? "HD SC SETUP, 7.3.5 patched" should work. You will find it at Gamba´s: http://home.earthlink.net/~strahm_s/bootdisks.html

5/12V is always the same, you should take a look at the "mA" numbers. :-)
I think these figures are while the drive is running, it might need more power to actually start spinning. And a newer, faster drive would probably need more power to start than a slower one?

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Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts
Posted - 24 Sep 2003 :  14:01:20
It's still not clear to me whether the drive is spinning up or not . . . does it just click and sit there or does it click and then spin up?

jt .
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAFGo to Top of Page

Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 24 Sep 2003 :  14:26:06
At first, it was only clicking a few clicks and not fully starting up. After a few re-starts, it started spinning as normal, though I can't get any utility to see the drive, and it won't function as a startup.

The old drive from the Classic had a 230/230 mA.

Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)

Edited by - hobbes on 24 Sep 2003 14:33:52Go to Top of Page

tomlee59
Starting Member


USA
46 Posts
Posted - 24 Sep 2003 :  17:51:12
If it only clicked a few times, it's quite possible that your power supply doesn't have quite enough juice to supply the HD's startup current (which is quite high). If the power supply goes into current-limiting, it'll keep the drive from spinning up, or will cause it to reset badly and hang.

As an earlier poster said, you need to look at the current required by the drive, not the voltage. Nearly all drives need 5 and 12 volts (5 for the logic, 12 for the motor). The key is to see how much *current* the HD draws from those supplies.

If it turns out that you do need a stronger supply, there is room to shoehorn a small additional power supply. I've done that before (for a Plus hack), and it works great.

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Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 25 Sep 2003 :  03:38:38
Here's something: for fun (ha) I stuck a spare Quantum 160m drive into the Classic and tried it out. It has the exact same power specs as the 80m I took out -- and it does the same thing that the 1g drive is doing. It clicks and starts spinning, and then the Classic tells me it can't find a startup disk. When I boot it with disk tools, it still can't see the drive. I get the message: no suitable drive connected to SCSI.

Could the problem be that I did all the initializing and software installation (OS 7.5.5) on the two problematic HDs from my PowerMac 7500/G3? Would this matter?

Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)

Edited by - hobbes on 25 Sep 2003 05:01:53Go to Top of Page

maclover5
LC Doctor/Hot Rodder


Australia
5830 Posts
Posted - 25 Sep 2003 :  05:24:43
Do you know if the 160 megger works or not? It sounds like the 1 gigger is sucking too much power, and that the 160 megger may be fried. Either way, try both drives in the 7500, and get back to us.

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Warrior maclover5
68kMLA

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Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts
Posted - 25 Sep 2003 :  06:42:35
quote:

Here's something: for fun (ha) I stuck a spare Quantum 160m drive into the Classic and tried it out. It has the exact same power specs as the 80m I took out -- and it does the same thing that the 1g drive is doing. It clicks and starts spinning, and then the Classic tells me it can't find a startup disk. When I boot it with disk tools, it still can't see the drive. I get the message: no suitable drive connected to SCSI.

Is the Quantum terminated? I'll bet the one from the external APS case wasn't, could this just be a SCSI termination problem?

jt .
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Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 25 Sep 2003 :  06:52:14
The 160m is fine. It was in an external box I've been using as a spare portable drive until last night.

Both the 160m and the 1g drives were removed from external boxes, where they worked fine -- until they were put in the Classic.


Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)Go to Top of Page

Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 25 Sep 2003 :  06:55:29
On termination: both problematic drives came from external boxes. Before I removed them, I set their manual SCSI addresses (i.e., that little address switch on the back of the boxes) to 0. What do I need to do to terminate them?

Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)Go to Top of Page

Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts
Posted - 25 Sep 2003 :  07:06:18
Look up the drives (there's an online database in the links project, click on the period in my sig ) and find out if there is a switch or jumper needed to enable onboard termination or if there are resistor packs (usually 9 pin SIPs IIRC) that need to be replaced.

jt .
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAFGo to Top of Page

Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 25 Sep 2003 :  10:22:08
OK. Figured out that the Quantum 1g needs on-board termination, and I know how and where to do it. Now, to find one of those darn jumper caps...

The old 80m Quantum drive I took out of the Classic didn't have any (obvious) jumper caps where they would normally be (that I could swipe for the new drive), so perhaps it has some other type of self-termination enabled?

Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)Go to Top of Page

tomlee59
Starting Member


USA
46 Posts
Posted - 25 Sep 2003 :  22:57:37
That 80MB Quantum does not have a jumper-selectable termination. You have to do it the old fashioned way, with SIP resistor packs on the drive itself, or with a terminator on the external connector.

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Hobbes
Starting Member


United Kingdom
25 Posts
Posted - 02 Oct 2003 :  08:10:53
Now then...

I've finally found a jumper clip and terminated the Quantum 1g as per recommendation (on the TE pins).

The Classic now starts up, spins the drive, and no longer brings up the 'can't find startup disk' icon. Instead, it brings up...

A dead Mac with the traditional two lines of code beneath!

Any ideas about this new revoltin' development?

Hobbes
They all purr: Mac Classic (not lately) | SE | IIcx | Powerbook 180c | PM 7100/66 | PM 7500/G3 400 | Kitty (cat1) | George (cat2)Go to Top of Page

Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts
Posted - 02 Oct 2003 :  08:47:23
quote:

Before I removed them, I set their manual SCSI addresses (i.e., that little address switch on the back of the boxes) to 0. What do I need to do to terminate them?


This could be a problem, that is, unless you also removed and left the ID switchblock/cable assemblies connected to the drives. When you removed the drives, you probably also removed the SCSI address setting of 0 and they're set to whatever the default with none of the jumper pairs shorted happens to be. If the default is 7, that could be your problem, time to check the docs again!

jt .
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAFGo to Top of Page

tomlee59
Starting Member


USA
46 Posts
Posted - 02 Oct 2003 :  11:09:45
If you are getting the sad mac, that can actually be a good sign. In many cases, it means that the driver on the HD has been corrupted, or that some data in the boot blocks makes no sense.

Try booting off of a floppy. If that works, then update the driver (or reformat/reinstall, etc.)

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