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The Lightning Stalker
Full Member


USA
747 Posts
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 :  15:02:04
Hi, all.

I just recently got around to trying video capture on my 7600/233 (that's why I got it, after all) and I must say I'm very disappointed.

Maybe someone in here who knows more about it than me can point out what I might be doing wrong, besides using a computer that's too slow.

Alright. The program I decided to use is VideoFusion 1.6 or something. It's the one with the PPC code that I hoped would make it work pretty good. It works fine at 15 fps with no dropped frames which is okay, but when I try to go up to 29.9 fps I start dropping frames. This is with no unnecessary extensions, AppleTalk off, VM off, 3xxx KB disk cache (auto), no other programs running, etc. I tried the YUV codec w/post compress and having the record window "off" while recording.

My goal is 29.9 fps because I want all the frames from my home movie to be captured into the QuickTime movie.

Here's some detailed info about hardware and software that might help out:

I'm using a hard drive that tested out at about a 7-8 MB/s transfer rate with FWB HDT 4.5

All the FPM DIMMS I own are in there, totalling out to a measly 136 MB, which I don't see why it wouldn't be enough, but probably isn't because I keep getting out of memory errors.

It has a 256K L2

The video card is a Formac Proformacce 3, but I don't see what difference this would make while capturing.

I'm trying this with Mac OS 8.6. Do you think I should be using 8.0 or even 7.6? The only thing I'm afraid of with going to a lower OS is that I might take a performace hit on the hard drive because of it not being all native PPC. Then again, who knows

G4from128k
Full Member


USA
873 Posts
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 :  15:21:56
Sounds like you have done a good job of minimizing excess extensions and other processor resource hogs. Defragging the HD will help if the disk drive is making a lot of clattering head-movement noise while recording video. Increasing the disk cache size might also help.

I do wonder about the impact of the Formac video card, instead of the onboard video. The driver for that card might be eating some of the bandwidth in the system. Although that card should accelerate many display operations (especially rendering in 3-D), it might be a bottleneck when handling raw video data that has to be transferred from RAM across the PCI bridge to the card (instead of going straight into VRAM). (see http://www.mug.jhmi.edu/mirrors/InfoAlley/1296/02/7500.html ) Of course, I could be totally wrong.

You might also take a look at Apple Video Player for grabbing video -- I don't know that this is any better than VideoFusion, but it is worth a try.

Good Luck,


I agree with your assessment of staying with 8.6.

G4From128k

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Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 :  17:49:44
quote:

The program I decided to use is VideoFusion 1.6 or something. It's the one with the PPC code that I hoped would make it work pretty good. It works fine at 15 fps with no dropped frames which is okay, but when I try to go up to 29.9 fps I start dropping frames.


What's the spec on the pixel count and what are you using as your source for the Video input?

A PCI ATA card might give you much better performance, 7-8 MB/second sounds like it might be marginal for 640x480.

Maybe check out getting a VCR that'll output at 15 FPS (or whatever other rate will match up with your VidCap rig) in slow motion to record it with the VCR output optimized for the computer's VidCap input capability.

jt .
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C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAFGo to Top of Page

The Lightning Stalker
Full Member


USA
747 Posts
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 :  20:31:21
quote:
What's the spec on the pixel count and what are you using as your source for the Video input?

The capture size is 300x300 at "Color" or "RGB" or something like that. If you mean my screen resolution, it's 640x480 with millions of colors.

The source is the "built-in" RCA plug on the back of the 7600.

I forgot to mention the QuickTime version. It's 3.0.2, I think. I know it's 3.something

I'll check for sure tomorrow. I have it unplugged because of a thunderstorm last night and it's just too late to start it up.

That still leaves the "out of memory" errors. Maybe I just need more RAM. Video capturing sure does hog a lot of RAM!

I just remembered that the hard drive is using a Hard Disk Toolkit driver. Does anyone think it would benefit from using an Apple driver?

Say I'm forced to capture in slomo at 15 fps. Is there a way to get the video back up to regular speed?

Thanks for the info and I'd appreciate any more.Go to Top of Page

The Lightning Stalker
Full Member


USA
747 Posts
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 :  20:37:44
G4from128k:
I just visited that link and it's probably worth a try. I could see how it could make a difference with the window on while recording, but it would be weird if it made a difference with it off, but I guess hardware is like that sometimes. Maybe I'd get the periodic updates to the window with it "off" that VideoFusion says you can get sometimes on AV machines. That's another thing. I wonder if the 7600 has some of the AV hardware acceleration in it although not being an av designation, like the YUV and being able to update the record window when it's "turned off"

Edited by - The Lightning Stalker on 16 Apr 2003 20:38:45Go to Top of Page

cory5412
68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms


USA
4679 Posts
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 :  20:45:56
I'd Use Apple Video Player...
Also... if You play back the frames in QT player after having captured them... do you get them at 15fps?
when youre capturing the computer is doing alot of OTHER hard work and doesn't need the load of displaying every frame....
Other than that try Apple Video Player
Also, try to use the onboard video..
My Quadra 840AV captured just fine at 30 FPS...

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The Lightning Stalker
Full Member


USA
747 Posts
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 :  21:05:10
quote:
if You play back the frames in QT player after having captured them... do you get them at 15fps?

How do I tell?
quote:
when youre capturing the computer is doing alot of OTHER hard work and doesn't need the load of displaying every frame....

I know. That's why I have the record window set to be turned off during capture. Even when it's on, it only refreshes at about 1 fps when it's capturing anyway - to keep from working too hard, I guess.

I'm pretty sure it's skipping frames during the capture here. During the post compress it showes a preview of each frame as it's being compressed and so they go by pretty slow, and I can tell that it's skipping frames.

I'll take your advice, though and use Apple Video Player and the built-in video. IN THE MORNING!

Edited by - The Lightning Stalker on 16 Apr 2003 21:10:18Go to Top of Page

cory5412
68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms


USA
4679 Posts
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 :  21:31:00
Yeah...

You haven't let the thing finish it's rendering work and see what it gives you?

Maybe if you capture in 5-minute segments and string them all together in QuickTime....

Official 68k videographer
Official MLA TourGuideGo to Top of Page

The Lightning Stalker
Full Member


USA
747 Posts
Posted - 17 Apr 2003 :  14:57:20
I did have a long reply to this, but I was stupid and closed IE before posting it. Oh well, I'll have to retype later. Hardware store calls...

The Lightning Stalker

Edited by - The Lightning Stalker on 17 Apr 2003 14:58:01Go to Top of Page

QuadraJets
Junior Member


USA
344 Posts
Posted - 17 Apr 2003 :  19:32:12
quote:
I just remembered that the hard drive is using a Hard Disk Toolkit

driver. Does anyone think it would benefit from using an Apple driver?


I have found that HDT drivers are horribly slow. I had a seagate 2 gig in my IIci with an hdt driver, and it was at about 1mb/sec, and with a CharisMac driver, it maxed the scsi out at 5mb/sec. i suggest either an apple driver or a CharisMac driver.

now for some sleep, its been a VERY long week

Artillery Commander/Engineer, 68kMLA
Liberated:
LCII , III+, IIci, Q700, 800, and 840av, P550, 410
Contraband: Beige G3/300 MT o/c 400mhz, (2) 6100's
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cory5412
68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms


USA
4679 Posts
Posted - 17 Apr 2003 :  19:42:04
Yeah.... It might be your Hard Disk driver too (didn't think of that one)

Total performance suggestion:
Use Apple Video Player with the onboard video out and the Apple HDD driver...
If the HDD driver thing works... the ForMac video card should be good though...

Official 68k videographer
Official MLA TourGuideGo to Top of Page

Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts
Posted - 17 Apr 2003 :  20:59:34
Video Capture color depth should be independent of the display depth, check it out. If it is, then knock the desktop color depth way back to speed the system up during capture.

The suggestion for capturing in slow motion was culled from info on using PDS cards in the LC era. They did a separate capture of the soundtrack too, IIRC. It was a good trick for doing full screen, full frame rate clips on rudimentary hardware. The frame rate was jacked back up to 30 FPS in a video editing program.

jt .
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAFGo to Top of Page

cory5412
68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms


USA
4679 Posts
Posted - 17 Apr 2003 :  21:56:00
yeah... I read about that in the book from 1993 I accidentally bought a few years back...

Still have that book somewhere..

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Gothikon
Full Member


Australia
537 Posts
Posted - 18 Apr 2003 :  04:00:54
Whilst you may not be using the fastest drivers you aren't going to get that much more than 7-8 MB a second, I suspect you'll get 9 at best.

--------
LC 2, LC 3, Q605, Perf 638, Colour Classic (160 603e) 6100, 7200, PTP 225 (Quad 604), PM 9600, G4 CubeGo to Top of Page

Unknown_K
Full Member


USA
602 Posts
Posted - 18 Apr 2003 :  06:07:12
Anybody using a Radius Videovision board on their 68k macs?

I have one for my PM8500 was wondering how the nubus ones worked.

I also have a radius spigotav in my 840av

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The Lightning Stalker
Full Member


USA
747 Posts
Posted - 18 Apr 2003 :  15:46:22
Okay. I changed to the Apple driver and it did make it a little faster on the read speed, but the write speed is prettymuch unchanged.

Here's the gist of my lost post:

I checked the capture res and depth and it's 320x200x32. I also found out how to get the playback fps in QuickTime and it was like 24 fps or something, while the movie itself is 30 fps, so that would explain some of the jerkiness. I copied it to the PC which has a Radeon 7200 and therefore doesn't skip frames and it still looks a little jerky like it missed a frame here and there during the capture.

Could it be that the VCR and the 7600 are out of sync and I'm losing frames that way? Probably not, but I don't know. I suppose anyting's possible.

Thanks again for _all_ the help to everyone. I feel like I can almost get this thing to work!Go to Top of Page

Unknown_K
Full Member


USA
602 Posts
Posted - 18 Apr 2003 :  17:37:00
Isnt the video 29.9 fps or something? If you pick 30 the audio will desync with the picture sooner or later

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Gothikon
Full Member


Australia
537 Posts
Posted - 19 Apr 2003 :  16:40:20
quote:

I checked the capture res and depth and it's 320x200x32. I also found out how to get the playback fps in QuickTime and it was like 24 fps or something, while the movie itself is 30 fps, so that would explain some of the jerkiness. I copied it to the PC which has a Radeon 7200 and therefore doesn't skip frames and it still looks a little jerky like it missed a frame here and there during the capture.

IIRC the capture and quicktime encoding fram rates are quite seperate, whlst it might be capturing at 30fps the quicktime codec you've chosen to save files with is converting them to 24fps. See whatother codecs you can use. I haven't played around with 68k video capture in ages but i think there is an advanced button on the screen that lets you select different quicktime codecs and you can set the number of keyframs and fps on it.

--------
LC 2, LC 3, Q605, Perf 638, Colour Classic (160 603e) 6100, 7200, PTP 225 (Quad 604), PM 9600, G4 CubeGo to Top of Page

The Lightning Stalker
Full Member


USA
747 Posts
Posted - 20 Apr 2003 :  18:56:13
quote:
Isnt the video 29.9 fps or something? If you pick 30 the audio will desync with the picture sooner or later

Right. It's set to capture at 29.9, but I said it was 30 because after it's compressed and everything and you go to get info on the video, it says it's 30 fps.
quote:
quicktime codec you've chosen to save files with is converting them to 24fps

That could explain the 24 fps playback. The only thing is that in the info, it says that the movie is 30 fps. If the codec converted it to 24 fps, wouldn't it say that it was 24?
quote:
See whatother codecs you can use

I tried the Sorenson and Video codecs, but I think the other ones are for line art or graphics or something. I can blog all the available codecs if you want.Go to Top of Page
   

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