| Author |
Topic |
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Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER
USA
2899 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Nov 2002 : 10:10:35
TiBook
iBook-12"
1Book-14"or a *shudders* Win . . . that's what the kid thinks he wants, I need reasons to . . . "let him think of" to stick with the Mac.  jt  ™.
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAF |
catsdorule
Senior Member
Canada
1627 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2002 : 11:09:45
Get a iBook 12`` It`s good enough.^and cheap!-danny
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68k Macintosh Liberation Army
68k Macs Liberated: 3 |
II2II
Junior Member
Canada
115 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2002 : 11:17:20
quote:
or a *shudders* Win . . . that's what the kid thinks he wants, I need reasons to . . . "let him think of" to stick with the Mac.
It depends upon what the kid is studying. If he is studying computer science, astronomy, mathematics, or physics, get him a Linux based PC. While the standard Unix fare may be available for Mac OS X (compilers, LaTeX, et al), certain software is only available for certain platforms (eg. Maple). In social sciences or the humanities, it probably does not matter as long as he has a Word-alike. Actually, an SE/30 would probably do since its primary use would be for writing papers. (Libraries will provide access for online materials because most of it is restricted to campus use, and using free sources in many fields is pointless.) Of course, that option won't impress your son. If he is going for some sort of business degree, go for Windows. He will have to be desensitized at some point anyway and they are going to use Office more heavily. The more prestigous (ie. rich) schools are going to require a Wintel laptops which match absurd specs anyway (wireless ethernet, specific chat clients for in class discussions). It is possible to fight the flow, but unless your son is a die-hard Macintosh user it won't work! Truth be told, laptops are not a requirement. They are a status symbol. If status is important to your family or son, then by all means buy one. If not, something like an iMac/eMac is probably more appropriate. Laptops usually end up with useless batteries, damaged from being banged around (books are not gentle after all), stolen, or simply left at home. II2II
Intelligence officer in training. |
The Lightning Stalker
Full Member
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2002 : 12:04:02
I agree completely with II2II. My own little twist to add to the situation, being a user of both platforms interchangably, is it really depends on what he's studying. If you really want the best for you son, you can't be too tied to either PC or Macintosh. In creative writing, the press, and the like, the Mac is used heavily because its ease of use tends to have less of a barrier to the free flow of ideas. In the sciences and business, the PC is used heavily, and it would be almost crippling to use the Mac. Even though Microsoft does make Office for the Mac, there are navigational differences which could arise in walk-throghs common in educational literature. If he's going into technical fields, this is also a place where the PC is used. Hope this helps.The Lightning Stalker |
Marchie
Chaplain
USA
911 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2002 : 12:32:05
the iBook prices just dropped, so there's no excuse NOT to get an iBook (14inch if you can afford), with extra RAM (384 Minimum) and Virtual PC.Almost nothing WON'T run in VPC, and if he's in the Mathematics and sciences, he'll have plenty of help to get Xfree86 and such runningon there. What college? ~Marchie ~Chaplain Marchie
Admin of The WonderLAN
~~"We are all Mad here"~~ |
mathgeek
Junior Member
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2002 : 12:33:17
quote:
It depends upon what the kid is studying. If he is studying computer science, astronomy, mathematics, or physics, get him a Linux based PC.
um, I don't mean to be rude, but I get the impression that you're speaking from opinion and not experience. Here's my experience:
Bachelor of Science degree in Applied Mathematics from the California Institute of Technology
Masters degree in Pure Mathematics from the Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
Currently working towards PhD in Applied and Computational mathematics at Caltech
My girlfriend is a molecular biology major at Princeton University We both own macs. We both use macs EXCLUSIVELY. Neither of us have ever had a problem interacting with the predominantly PC world around us. Serious mathematicians don't use Maple, we use Mathematica and MATLAB, both of which are arguably better and faster on a mac. In all of the computer labs I've seen at Caltech and Princeton, there are usually 25% macs, much higher than what you'd see in the outside world. In mathematics and science labs, the percentages are even higher. In my department, not a single person is running windoze. Many run UNIX on PCs and the rest of us use macs. quote:
The more prestigous (ie. rich) schools are going to require a Wintel laptops which match absurd specs anyway (wireless ethernet, specific chat clients for in class discussions). It is possible to fight the flow, but unless your son is a die-hard Macintosh user it won't work!
Again, from experience I can tell you this isn't accurate. I have never run into any such obstacle nor have my mac using college friends at other schools. If these problems do arrise, it must not be very frequent. quote:
Truth be told, laptops are not a requirement. They are a status symbol. If status is important to your family or son, then by all means buy one.
you say this like it's the undeniable truth. Being able to take my laptop to my lab, to my office, on the plane and to friends houses has allowed my to be a great deal more productive than when I used a desktop for my work machine. Some students even bring laptops to class and take notes on them making it easy to collect notes in an organized way. From what I've seen, the people using desktop PCs in college do it so that they can have some hotrod macine to play games on. If don't want your kids wasting time on games in college, don't buy them a desktop PC. I've seen a quite a few people fail classes because they spend more time on Quake than they do on Calculus. mathgeek 68K Macs Liberated: LC, Performa 636, Mac Classic II
My Powerbook 1400 page http://www.its.caltech.edu/~dgoulet/1400 |
Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER
USA
2899 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2002 : 12:49:50
Thanks for the ideas, I'm not all that attached to either platform when it comes time to do work, tho I do have strong preferences. Field would be: MicroBiology/Genetics *shudders again* PreMed Dunno which school is his favorite, but I'll check the list and research a little from that end (and I'm suddenly superstitious about posting names  ) keep the ideas coming!  jt ™.
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAF |
II2II
Junior Member
Canada
115 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2002 : 13:23:18
quote:
I get the impression that you're speaking from opinion and not experience
Experience. Undoubtedly the experience is not as great as yours, but it is experience nevertheless. (Physics and astrophysics if you need to know.) Needless to say, there are differences between institutions. Granted, I have never encountered a 1:3 Mac to PC ratio.
quote:
Again, from experience I can tell you this isn't accurate. I have never run into any such obstacle nor have my mac using college friends at other schools.
My comments were in reference to a specific type of programme where the school requires each student to purchase a laptop computer, and these computers must meet certain requirements. You can be sly and use a machine which does not meet those requirements, but it is not going to work very well if that machine was thrust on you. If you choose to use it, then that is a different story. quote:
quote:
Truth be told, laptops are not a requirement.
You say this like it's the undeniable truth. ... If don't want your kids wasting time on games in college, don't buy them a desktop PC.
Stupid game players.  We are thinking along the same lines here, but the outcome is different. I have seen any number of students playing with their laptops rather than working, though I don't know what their flunk rate is. Maybe the best option is to buy an SE/30 or a Duo 210, depending upon which camp you're in.  Okay, I am assuming undergrad level studies here and I have never bought the laptops are indispensible argument. At this level pretty much anything you can do on a computer you can do on paper. You are simply structuring your work patterns differently. Now things are different in grad studies, you ought to know that as well as anyone, so the requirements are a bit different. Yet even then you can live without a laptop because computer networks allow you to access your data and run your programs from just about anywhere. II2II
Intelligence officer in training. |
mathgeek
Junior Member
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2002 : 14:13:44
quote:
Okay, I am assuming undergrad level studies here and I have never bought the laptops are indispensible argument. At this level pretty much anything you can do on a computer you can do on paper.
I guess our college experiences were much different. quote:
Yet even then you can live without a laptop because computer networks allow you to access your data and run your programs from just about anywhere.
I agree that modern computer networks make it less necessary to have a portable. When my girlfriend got her powerbook and saw that it had no floppy drive she was a bit irritated. Once she learned a little about ftp and appletalk, those feelings went away. With most desktops, you're paying for things a student doesn't really NEED (big screen, huge drives, dvd-rom, PCI slots, expensive graphics cards, etc.) Granted, a student might WANT these things so they can play games or otherwise stray from the purpose of attending college, but most of these things aren't needed. My feeling is that the extra money is better spent on making the machine portable so that students can take them to class, work in their friends rooms on projects, study outside of their rooms (coffee shops, labs, libraries, etc) or bring work home on vacations (my parents always thought I was crazy for studying over xmas break)
I bought a used powerbook 1400 and upgraded it to a G3 400MHz. It's the best money I ever spent because it enables me to work on things outside the confines of a dorm room without having to worry if my friends or the computer labs have the software I need to use. mathgeek 68K Macs Liberated: LC, Performa 636, Mac Classic II
My Powerbook 1400 page http://www.its.caltech.edu/~dgoulet/1400 |
Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER
USA
2899 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2002 : 14:47:23
quote:
My feeling is that the extra money is better spent on making the machine portable so that students can take them to class, work in their friends rooms on projects, study outside of their rooms (coffee shops, labs, libraries, etc) or bring work home on vacations. . . . . . to work on things outside the confines of a dorm room without having to worry if my friends or the computer labs have the software I need to use.
Bingo! He likes the idea of using a laptop wherever he might be and I think it's probably good strategy.Is the portability of a 12" iBook, the power of a TiBook or the balanced (?) compromise of a 14" iBook a better choice and why? Which 'books have the best durability record? Is there enough of a size/weight a/o screen real estate difference to really matter? jt ™.
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAF |
Clinton
Full Member
USA
700 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2002 : 14:53:53
did you see the new lower standard price for the 12" iBook?now down to $999. It'll be considerably cheaper with the educational discount as for a reason, tell him he'll be able to think different and stand out from the crowd, then plunk him down in front of the Think Different ad with Amelia Earhard, and other famous people that Thought different
CCC Lieutennant Commander (Pronounced Leftennant)
68k Macs Rescued: 2 Pluses, a 512KE, a Classic II, a Quadra 650, and a Quadra 660AV
Contraband rescued: Power Computing PowerBase 200, and a PM 8600/300
Apple //s rescued: Apple //e Edited by - Clinton on 06 Nov 2002 14:56:12 |
~Coxy
Leader, Tactical Ops Unit
Australia
2822 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2002 : 18:08:21
I'd go for the iBook myself.
Tough, and affordable, but get some extra RAM (fill it to the max if you can afford it.)In my experiences (B.CompSci) you'll be able to do anything on a Mac that you can on a PC. In fact, all of first-year math is done on Macs, and so was our first-year MATLAB unit. The only things you may have a problem with are M$ courses in VB or J++ or .NET or whatever they're paying the uni to teach kids these days. However, I don't have a problem with doing them on lab machines, it's what they're there for, after all. ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit
Mayor of NuBus City v3.0
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Kami
Junior Member
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2002 : 21:50:42
Having just completed my Masters degree and having spent too much time in the library - I can say that in my experience having a laptop was a huge benefit. There is nothing like being able to access previous files/notes to compare with currently researched topics. How about working in a carrel in the stacks rather than hauling books up and down to the laptop lab. My school had just put in a wireless network - bonus, access to servers! Having worked on a Wallstreet (approx 8 lbs) and a 2300c (approx 4 lbs) and a Toshiba Portege 3010 I can say emphatically that lighter and smaller is better in the post secondary world. If you look at the current crop of Windows laptops that are both small and light then you are looking at Sony 505s, Gateway 3500s (I think that is the model after the excellent 3350), and Toshiba Porteges. These computers are really expensive and in the case of the Sony, the CD-RW is not built into the computer - it is in a docking station. Not useful at all, IMO. The standard Windows laptop is sporting 14 and 15 inch LCDS and are heavy. Even though I'm done my education for a while, I will be getting an 800 Mhz 12 inch iBook. I'm tired of hauling a Wallstreet to meetings. My back will be thanking me for years. Here is my thought - if mobility is truly a concern why not get a used laptop to see if this works for your son. Or, better yet a Mac and Windows laptop :-)
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II2II
Junior Member
Canada
115 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2002 : 21:55:43
Okay, I give in. Students need ultra-powerful work oriented machines in order to complete their assignments. How about a 32 processor Itanium cluster? Perhaps an SV1?  I have been through these need vs. want discussions before and people have no sense of proportion when it comes to technology. It goes even further out of wack when you throw the word 'education' in the mix. I have seen students go to the food bank while buying a palm pilot or upgrading their desktop (which may not terribly impressive after the upgrade either since it was not for games). Healthy food and books will make a better student than any computer will. Yes, I do have a bit of an axe to grind here because I have been watching students whine about tuition over the past four or five years while watching them (and their institutions) get their priorities completely mixed up. Like it or not, very few studies show that computers make better students. So I guess what I'm saying is this: if you buy a wonderfully expensive laptop for your son, don't let him gripe about tuition since a computer has negligable educational value. It is usually used to create more impressive looking papers or to show off some fancy animations in PowerPoint. But that is presentation and not actual quality. (There are, of course, exceptions to this since a computer science student clearly needs a machine to practice programming on.) A while back, I found an excellent example of this while marking a pile of assignments. Only one student decided that their assignment had to be typed up, and it was the most atrocious of the batch. Well, I was talking to that student when he handed it in and he said that he had trouble solving a problem because he did not have the software to do it. The problem itself was simple enough to figure out in your head, but his desire to lean on a digital crutch produced one of the worse answer in the class. This, of course, is the worse of the worse since many students will combine the quality and presentation to come up with a legible and reasonably thought-out response. But it also points out that a computer does not make a good student. It takes diligence and discipline (mathgeek suggested that in his/her christmas vacation studies). So maybe you should wait until the end of first year and buy your son whatever he wants if his grades justify it. In the meantime, you can feed him favourable articles ("and this group uses G4's to sequence the human genome, and this group is doing . . ."). Check out Apple's science and technology site: http://www.apple.com/scitech/ II2II
Intelligence officer in training. |
Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER
USA
2899 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2002 : 22:18:34
Who said I was buying it for him? He has more money than I do!  He's been using a 630 forever and a 6290 the last couple of years and surfing on the old K6 box we built the summer before he went to high school. So I can't really blame him for not wanting to take one of my ancient Duo's away to school (as if I had any decent batteries for them!) and he'll likely be paying for most of it himself. He was convinced he wanted a Windows machine (warez availability, I presume), but I think it's finally sinking in that I won't be on call as his IT dept. if he goes for anything past Win98! He's not dragging me into anything newer than that and I haven't quite told him he probably won't get a lot of X help from me either! We'll see what he decides, but I told him he was nuts to make any decisions until he gets accepted somewhere. By then there will probably be bluetooth iToys at MWSF or Spring Break! Sounds like a high end 12" iBook is a sweet spot in the lineup and I'm not crazy about the durability of the Ti's, way too many problems to bang one around in a bag on campus. Are the iBooks really sturdy enough to stand up to that kind of abuse? jt ™.
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAF Edited by - Trash80toG-4 on 06 Nov 2002 22:23:53 |
~Coxy
Leader, Tactical Ops Unit
Australia
2822 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2002 : 22:36:32
quote:
Sounds like a high end 12" iBook is a sweet spot in the lineup and I'm not crazy about the durability of the Ti's, way too many problems to bang one around in a bag on campus. Are the iBooks really sturdy enough to stand up to that kind of abuse?
From what little experience I've had playing with them, I'd have to say yes. The tough shell protecting the screen seems like it would be adequate.
I think you're slightly overestimating the abuse that a laptop receives, though... we're not highschoolers anymore! ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit
Mayor of NuBus City v3.0
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II2II
Junior Member
Canada
115 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2002 : 23:25:20
quote:
Who said I was buying it for him? He has more money than I do!
If it is his money, it is his decision! All that you can really do is solicit your advice. If he is dead set on being a warez d00d, then there is not much you can do. Macintosh users are too honest. Then again, with ISPs starting to impose download limits, he is not going to be making very many friends. (I recently had to crack down on a friend's roommate because of that.) As for those Duos, they are rather sturdy. I managed to smash mine under a stack of text books and it still worked. Hopefully the iBooks are made to the same standards. As for how much abuse it has to take, it depends upon the person. I am accident prone, so it has to take a lot. A friend of mine has one of those tiny Viao's, and it is in prestine condition 2.5 years later. Well, physically. Windows is a mental wreck. Fortunately she does not use Windows. II2II
Intelligence officer in training. |
The Lightning Stalker
Full Member
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2002 : 01:50:48
You notice that I didn't say anything about math classes. Math majors probably don't necessarily need any computers at all. Just a graphing calculator, and anything else can be done in the lab. I THINK?The Lightning Stalker |
Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER
USA
2899 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2002 : 05:18:06
quote:
quote:
Who said I was buying it for him? He has more money than I do!
If it is his money, it is his decision! All that you can really do is solicit your advice.
That's why they're reasons I'd let HIM think of! If he expects any money from or help from me, for computer, software or college, it's not ENTIRELY his decision to spend what money he has managed to make. jt ™.
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAF |
thelip
Full Member
USA
729 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2002 : 10:50:00
newton 2100
keyboard
ata card/driver
nice case (i can get you a link for a very nice case w/ DIY instructions)
wireless card/driver
portable Stylewritercost you a few hundred $$ and still have some cash left for the ladies. but realistically, i'd say the 12" ibook, power with not much cost and portability to get you around. I'm at a community college working my way to seminary so it doesn't matter what comp i have. But, one thing is for sure, having a machine in class is great for notes and organizing (2 things that i suffer greatly at) _______________________
Sgt. Thelip
Heavy Weapons Specialist - 950 division
Keeper of the MLA Tracker - mlatracker.dyndns.org |
Marchie
Chaplain
USA
911 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2002 : 12:22:10
HAHA! I love the Newton idea! BUTREAD THIS: My sister's boyfriend works at our local Apple Store in the service dept. The OLD model of the iBooks are still available untill Apple runs out... at $799... an educational discount will take another 10% offf that. OR, buy the "refreshed model"... an example of this being "Cinemo walks into the Apple Store, and buys his wee one an iBook. He gets home and encounters SAF in a big way, and is told he sleeps on the couch, or returns the iBook. He thinks the couch isn't cozy enough, so he takes it back to the Apple Store, who marks it 'refreshed' and sells it to you at 10percent off" from a PRICE perspective, your son will have a hard time argueing with that. Even a refreshed NEW iBook comes in under $1000 after taxes... ~Marchie ~Chaplain Marchie
Admin of The WonderLAN
~~"We are all Mad here"~~ |
thelip
Full Member
USA
729 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2002 : 19:55:20
$799?!?!?!
*thinks of how many nights on the corner will it be til i can get a newish ibook*
_______________________
Sgt. Thelip
Heavy Weapons Specialist - 950 division
Keeper of the MLA Tracker - mlatracker.dyndns.org |
mathgeek
Junior Member
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2002 : 15:44:44
quote:
You notice that I didn't say anything about math classes. Math majors probably don't necessarily need any computers at all.
I can't think of any type of assignment that needs to be done on ones own computer rather than one in the lab. But we all know that having one of our own makes computer assignments more convenient. I started out studying pure math (group theory, real analysis, combinatorics, etc.) and never needed a computer or a calculator. I switched to applied mathematics (differential equations, numerical analysis, fluid mechanics, etc.) as a junior and found myself programming in Mathematica and MATLAB on a regular basis. I got sick of long hours in a noisy lab and scraped together enough cash for a used 6100. It made a huge difference.
If I had a kid I were sending to college, I'd tell him/her to hold off for a while to see what need there is for a computer. They might find they don't need one for a few semesters or even a few years. quote:
Math majors probably don't necessarily need any computers at all. Just a graphing calculator, ...
I know this is off topic, but imho graphing calculators are useless. I haven't used one since I was 17 and I never will again. When I tutor Algebra, Geometry and Calculus, I don't allow my student to use graphing calculators; they're a crutch and they make smart students dumber. Kids in highschool are made to feel that $100 calculators are a necessity of life. As some one who has spent a decade studying math, I can tell you that they aren't. mathgeek 68K Macs Liberated: LC, Performa 636, Mac Classic II
My Powerbook 1400 page http://www.its.caltech.edu/~dgoulet/1400 Edited by - mathgeek on 08 Nov 2002 15:55:21 |
thelip
Full Member
USA
729 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2002 : 15:53:01
quote:
If I had a kid I were sending to college, I'd tell him/her to hold off for a while to see what need there is for a computer. They might find they don't need one for a few semesters or even a few years.
that's exactly what my sister is doing, who last i heard was going to be a pottery major or something like that. _______________________
Sgt. Thelip
Heavy Weapons Specialist - 950 division
Keeper of the MLA Tracker - mlatracker.dyndns.org |
II2II
Junior Member
Canada
115 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2002 : 22:44:28
quote:
I can't think of any type of assignment that needs to be done on ones own computer rather than one in the lab. But we all know that having one of our own makes computer assignments more convenient.
Which reminds me: the computer science department at the University of Calgary required that programming assignments be completed on their computers. It was their way of avoiding forged output. There was also a university wide policy that departments must provide computer access for projects which had to be completed with computers. Granted, people are always breaking university policies, usually because they are not familiar with them, and I suppose that this could be one of the frequently broken ones these days. (I had one professor which went as far as charging students to take quizzes, and the university didn't do anything about it.  ) quote:
I got sick of long hours in a noisy lab and scraped together enough cash for a used 6100. It made a huge difference.
That, of course, depends upon the student and the class. Sometimes it helps when you know the person next to you. quote:
imho graphing calculators are useless.
I actually found them quite useful, but mostly because they display the entire expression and expressions are easy to recall. The statistics functions are useful in labs (to ensure your data is not completely out of whack before leaving), though my understanding is that some schools are changing over to simulations anyway (cheaper). But it is generally a bad idea to rely upon calculators since most courses will not allow them. quote:
Kids in highschool are made to feel that $100 calculators are a necessity of life.
Again, it is a status symbol. After all, how else can you play a cheap doom clone in math class.
II2II
Intelligence officer in training.
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cory5412
68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms
USA
4679 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2002 : 12:15:09
When I go to college, I'll be likely to take my scientific calculator with me.. but i'm not sure if I'll ever own a graphing caclulator... my math teacher mentioned one day to a few students in my class who had graphing calculators that they were the cause of many of the students in the next level up not doing well.
(I am in Integrated 2.0 math, a 10th grade class, whereeas I am a 9th grader)As far as a computer goes... i like to have one for writing (although a printer would help) and just in general for email and IM...
I'll probably use a PowerBook G4, and also take my Dell OptiPlex just for the programming and whatnot as for the VPC thing... I am of the opinion that using a VPC just doesnt compare to using a real PC, even if it's a Pentium 200MHz with only 64 MB of RAM Official 68k videographer |
Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER
USA
2899 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2002 : 14:08:53
quote:
... my math teacher mentioned one day to a few students in my class who had graphing calculators that they were the cause of many of the students in the next level up not doing well.
Smart teacher! The only calculator that can really act as a learning aid would be a slide rule, anything else detracts from the tactile experience required for developing a "feel" for numbers. jt ™.
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAF |
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College Computer Suggestions?
68k of the Week: kastegir's PowerBook 180.