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Hivemind
Starting Member


Liechtenstein
21 Posts		 Posted - 22 Jul 2002 :  13:57:06
Oooh! We're excited. Maybe it's because it's bedtime. Wait, that's not what we were going to talk about. Maybe because we've work tomorrow. Wait, that's not what we were going to talk about either.

Ok, so we haff this great flight sim, let's pit U.S./Turkey vs. Russia/Ukraine. It has a sattelite image map of the Crimean peninsula. Ok, I guess for starters we need a scenario of some sort.

ZE ASSIGNMENTE NO 1: Do some brainwork and come up with a possible war scenario. (anyone)


This could be fun! Weeeeeeee!


We are legion.

We don't do aircraft. WE TAKE THEM DOWN.

<a href="http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-400.htm">Triumf!</a>
Hivemind
Starting Member


Liechtenstein
21 Posts		 Posted - 22 Jul 2002 :  14:00:24
(I suggest American entry from Turkish AFB:s and possibly a carrier group deployed into the Black Sea via the Bosphorus Strait.)

We are legion.

We don't do aircraft. WE TAKE THEM DOWN.

<a href="http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-400.htm">Triumf!</a>Go to Top of Page
catsdorule
Senior Member


Canada
1627 Posts		 Posted - 22 Jul 2002 :  14:28:14

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cinemafia
Guerrilla Recon Leader


USA
2965 Posts		 Posted - 22 Jul 2002 :  14:38:48
Ditto...

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TiMacLover
Senior Member


USA
1282 Posts		 Posted - 22 Jul 2002 :  14:40:21
Ummm Yes.....

Jeremy

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Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts		 Posted - 22 Jul 2002 :  14:40:33
quote:



LOL! i don't have time to play flight sims i have here and i spend too much time online already! when we tried to get bolo games going it never really took off so i don't think a complex air combat gaming scene will develop here. sounds like fun, tho!

the SAM systems you linked to looked very iteresting, i hadn't seen them yet. i still don't think i'd wanna put a lot of stock in a defensive system that expensive. in light of hellfire armed predators coming into service, systems for counterstrike/supression of SAMs and AAA just made a price/performance improvement of about an order of magnitude, it seems to me!

jt ™.
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAFGo to Top of Page
Hivemind
Starting Member


Liechtenstein
21 Posts		 Posted - 23 Jul 2002 :  07:11:58
We think you're wrong. Because everything about the scene of battle evolves, not just recon. Interception involves too. There are EWR stations that can detect an aircraft 600 kms away.

Yes, the Predators may have the advantage for now, but we think that will change. Besides, at the moment they're only A2G.

Any aircraft equipped with a high-energy effective radar, such as the MiG-31, can detect and intercept a Predator. Please don't refer to Afghanistan, because the Taliban had like 1 airfield with like 5 functional aircraft (without any fuel). :P Of course the Predators got through.

We'll still try and do some scenario like this. We'll keep you updated :0

We are legion.

We don't do aircraft. WE TAKE THEM DOWN.

<a href="http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-400.htm">Triumf!</a>Go to Top of Page
Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts		 Posted - 23 Jul 2002 :  07:37:10
quote:

We think you're wrong. Because everything about the scene of battle evolves, not just recon. Interception involves too. There are EWR stations that can detect an aircraft 600 kms away.

Yes, the Predators may have the advantage for now, but we think that will change. Besides, at the moment they're only A2G.

Any aircraft equipped with a high-energy effective radar, such as the MiG-31, can detect and intercept a Predator. Please don't refer to Afghanistan, because the Taliban had like 1 airfield with like 5 functional aircraft (without any fuel). :P Of course the Predators got through.

We'll still try and do some scenario like this. We'll keep you updated :0

We are legion.

We don't do aircraft. WE TAKE THEM DOWN.

<a href="http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-400.htm">Triumf!</a>


sounds great as a wargaming scenario, let's KEEP it that way! the drones may be air to mud only for now, but i wouldn't want to be anywhere near an emitting radar on the ground or in the air if it hits the fan! that'd be a sucker bet right now if you ask me.

hang an air to air/air to ground capable radar homing missle on the centerline of a crapload of big, cheap, dumb predators along with the hellfires and place them way out in front of the ones with the expensive goodies inside and then let me know how your scenario turns out!

jt ™.
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAFGo to Top of Page
Hivemind
Starting Member


Liechtenstein
21 Posts		 Posted - 23 Jul 2002 :  11:33:19
It is unfortunate that Predators cannot be equipped with an A2A radar because of weight limitations.

Gotcha! :P

We are legion.

We don't do aircraft. WE TAKE THEM DOWN.

<a href="http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-400.htm">Triumf!</a>Go to Top of Page
Hivemind
Starting Member


Liechtenstein
21 Posts		 Posted - 23 Jul 2002 :  11:48:55
Well let's assume that you have to "punish" Russia+Ukraine (acting like world police, like the U.S. always do) and all you have at your disposal is a carrier group that just transferred to the Black Sea and air support from Turkish AFBs. What would your next move be?

AND NO YOU DONT HAVE PREDATORS

We are legion.

We don't do aircraft. WE TAKE THEM DOWN.

<a href="http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-400.htm">Triumf!</a>Go to Top of Page
Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts		 Posted - 23 Jul 2002 :  15:12:35
quote:

It is unfortunate that Predators cannot be equipped with an A2A radar because of weight limitations.

Gotcha! :P


nuuh! uuh! *smiles and wags finger*

i said: "big,cheap, dumb predators along with the hellfires." i figure on uplinking the take from the Radio Frequency and IR backup of the passive seeker heads of my new stealthy A2A/A2G HARM sticking out the nose from a ventral weapons bay in all my Big@$$ predators VELOCIRAPTORS swarming into your your airspace as a recon asset.

they'll be whacking your interceptors over their airfields when they try to sortie or land just like the lowly prop driven Jugs, Mustangs and Tempests cleared the jet powered ME-262s from the skies the last time there was a major transition in technology. you can line up all the high tech crap you can dream up and somebody will just figure a way to put a crapload of just good enough stuff together to bury it.

meanwhile they'll be delivering Rockeyes (cluster bombs) and Hellfires to any of your assets that light off their radars as they loiter casually above your head. you'll get a few before they have your number and one comes in low with the Rockeyes. but how much will four or five of my VELOCIRAPTORS hurt me materially as compared to the first line SAM battery equipment and personell that the fifth, sixth or even the fifteenth one takes out?

even if i need to expend a few cruise missles because your air defence net is thickly layered with well coordinated Triple A sites it won't help you for long. the better coordinated they are, the harder we try to find and whack your command and control assets for the big payoff and then proceed take out the poor guys at the front as we dismantle your entire air defense net with impunity.

this seems a lot like the old projectile weapons versus armor debates that have raged since the fire hardened point on a stick was cutting edge technology and somebopdy countered it with boiled leather armor. now look at the kinda crap we're talking about! bleh! the only thing that hasn't changed in all that time is us!

like i said. . . sounds great as a wargaming exercise, let's keep it that way!

Peace, comrade, welcome to the 68kMLA!

jt ™.
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAF

Edited by - Trash80toG-4 on 23 Jul 2002 15:19:06Go to Top of Page
Hivemind
Starting Member


Liechtenstein
21 Posts		 Posted - 24 Jul 2002 :  09:24:03
quote:

nuuh! uuh! *smiles and wags finger*

i said: "big,cheap, dumb predators along with the hellfires." i figure on uplinking the take from the Radio Frequency and IR backup of the passive seeker heads of my new stealthy A2A/A2G HARM sticking out the nose from a ventral weapons bay in all my Big@$$ predators VELOCIRAPTORS swarming into your your airspace as a recon asset.


Predators are slow and hardly a practical way of waging A2A/A2G combat. Good luck entering my airspace btw. The Hellfire's range limit is 7 kms. Once more I'd like to emphasise that Predators are NOT stealthy.
quote:

they'll be whacking your interceptors over their airfields when they try to sortie or land just like the lowly prop driven Jugs, Mustangs and Tempests cleared the jet powered ME-262s from the skies the last time there was a major transition in technology. you can line up all the high tech crap you can dream up and somebody will just figure a way to put a crapload of just good enough stuff together to bury it.


Your Predators will never get there. There's also a thing called a hardened aircraft shelter.
quote:

meanwhile they'll be delivering Rockeyes (cluster bombs) and Hellfires to any of your assets that light off their radars as they loiter casually above your head.
No they won't. They will be destroyed before they can even detect my assets. Besides, I think that level of technology is a few years away.
quote:

you'll get a few before they have your number and one comes in low with the Rockeyes. but how much will four or five of my VELOCIRAPTORS hurt me materially as compared to the first line SAM battery equipment and personell that the fifth, sixth or even the fifteenth one takes out?

This is a quote: "A fully operational system consists of four aircraft (with sensors), a ground control station (GCS), a Predator Primary Satellite Link (PPSL), and 55 personnel for continuous 24 hour operations.
"

55 ppl/4 aircraft. I don't think that the personnel costs will decide the outcome of this war, will they ;)

"In the future, Predators will carry the Multispectral Targeting System (MTS) with inherent AGM-114 Hellfire missile targeting capability, and integrates electro-optical, infrared, laser designator and laser illuminator into a single sensor package. These Predators cannot carry MTS and the SAR simultaneously. The aircraft will carry and employ two laser-guided Hellfire anti-tank missiles with MTS.
"

In the future.

quote:

even if i need to expend a few cruise missles because your air defence net is thickly layered with well coordinated Triple A sites it won't help you for long. the better coordinated they are, the harder we try to find and whack your command and control assets for the big payoff and then proceed take out the poor guys at the front as we dismantle your entire air defense net with impunity.

I wish you luck. Also, I would put A-50 AWACS and Su-27 aircraft on constant CAP to form a defense/offense umbrella. Good luck penetrating my airspace.

quote:

this seems a lot like the old projectile weapons versus armor debates that have raged since the fire hardened point on a stick was cutting edge technology and somebopdy countered it with boiled leather armor. now look at the kinda crap we're talking about! bleh! the only thing that hasn't changed in all that time is us!

?


Proud owner of the UnSignature™Go to Top of Page
Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts		 Posted - 24 Jul 2002 :  11:27:21
quote:

Predators are slow and hardly a practical way of waging A2A/A2G combat. Good luck entering my airspace btw. The Hellfire's range limit is 7 kms. Once more I'd like to emphasise that Predators are NOT stealthy.
quote:

they'll be whacking your interceptors over their airfields when they try to sortie or land just like the lowly prop driven Jugs, Mustangs and Tempests cleared the jet powered ME-262s from the skies the last time there was a major transition in technology. you can line up all the high tech crap you can dream up and somebody will just figure a way to put a crapload of just good enough stuff together to bury it.

Your Predators will never get there. There's also a thing called a hardened aircraft shelter.

yup, the germans used their equivalent for the 262's but they couldn't get in or out of them very many times before the jabos got 'em. when escort fighters weren't any good for projecting A2A power they got a lot better than the "barn doors" Goering so casually dismissed at the beginning of the war in short order. they saturated the Luftwaffe's air defence net just the way i described my theoretical "VELOCIRAPTORS" saturating yours and they were able to obliterate the jet technology advantage thru tactics and numbers.
quote:

quote:

meanwhile they'll be delivering Rockeyes (cluster bombs) and Hellfires to any of your assets that light off their radars as they loiter casually above your head.
No they won't. They will be destroyed before they can even detect my assets. Besides, I think that level of technology is a few years away.

the technology is always a few years away until it bites you on the @$$ while you're protecting the ground in front of you. read about the Maginot line constructed between wars to keep the Germans out of France and then about how the IDF did what needed to be done in order to project power over the Syrian SAM/AAA network in the Bekaa Valley to deal with Syrian interceptors. then think about how much faster offensive tactics and technology evolve than defensive measures can react. you're not considering the fact that the circumstances leading to losses of cheap drones are data for analysis leading to the location and elimination of any emitting radar or communications device on the field of battle from the front lines to synchronous orbit.
quote:

quote:

you'll get a few before they have your number and one comes in low with the Rockeyes. but how much will four or five of my VELOCIRAPTORS hurt me materially as compared to the first line SAM battery equipment and personell that the fifth, sixth or even the fifteenth one takes out?

This is a quote: "A fully operational system consists of four aircraft (with sensors), a ground control station (GCS), a Predator Primary Satellite Link (PPSL), and 55 personnel for continuous 24 hour operations.
"

55 ppl/4 aircraft. I don't think that the personnel costs will decide the outcome of this war, will they ;)

"In the future, Predators will carry the Multispectral Targeting System (MTS) with inherent AGM-114 Hellfire missile targeting capability, and integrates electro-optical, infrared, laser designator and laser illuminator into a single sensor package. These Predators cannot carry MTS and the SAR simultaneously. The aircraft will carry and employ two laser-guided Hellfire anti-tank missiles with MTS.
"

In the future.

quote:

even if i need to expend a few cruise missles because your air defence net is thickly layered with well coordinated Triple A sites it won't help you for long. the better coordinated they are, the harder we try to find and whack your command and control assets for the big payoff and then proceed take out the poor guys at the front as we dismantle your entire air defense net with impunity.

I wish you luck. Also, I would put A-50 AWACS and Su-27 aircraft on constant CAP to form a defense/offense umbrella. Good luck penetrating my airspace.


Baghdad had the best/largest air defence net to see actual combat since SAM alley ringed "Downtown" Hanoi. it was far superior to what the Syrians had over Lebanon and it covered their home turf with the lessons of the Syrian Bekaa Valley disasters foremost in the minds of the planners.
quote:

quote:

this seems a lot like the old projectile weapons versus armor debates that have raged since the fire hardened point on a stick was cutting edge technology and somebopdy countered it with boiled leather armor. now look at the kinda crap we're talking about! bleh! the only thing that hasn't changed in all that time is us!

?

defensive measures are designed to counter the offensive threats of the preceeding conflict and offensive equivalents are designed or adapted to brush them aside or avoid them alltogether. the defensive team gets the short, sharp end of the stick every time, ESPECIALLY the poor guys in the front lines of a layered defence either during the process of or soon after the negation of the "more effective assets" layered behind them.

i don't know about the military history you've read, but it seems to me that the personell losses inflicted in terms of reducing the effectiveness of the opposing force is ALWAYS the deciding factor in the case studies i've read.

if you are going to win a war, the defensive capabilities of your forces will not be the deciding factor, IMHO. when it comes to simple, cheap remotely controlled drones versus complex, manned defensive installations and vehicles i'd pick the drones every time, the cost analysis is not even something i want to try to go into.

if nothing else, maybe war will just get to expensive to consider, one can hope!

peace!

jt ™.
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAF


Edited by - Trash80toG-4 on 24 Jul 2002 11:42:48Go to Top of Page
Hivemind
Starting Member


Liechtenstein
21 Posts		 Posted - 24 Jul 2002 :  12:56:31
yeah yeah yeah. All I was trying to say is that Predators aren't the be-all and the end-all of a war. Also, the Russians have their own drones. It is an entirely different matter that they lack funding. Believe me, with equal funding as the U.S., they would kick your ass. They've got so much more ideas. Also, their ship design rules.

I'll post some screenshots from the game sometime!

Good night!

Proud owner of the UnSignature™Go to Top of Page
Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts		 Posted - 24 Jul 2002 :  14:33:45
quote:

yeah yeah yeah. All I was trying to say is that Predators aren't the be-all and the end-all of a war.

They've got so much more ideas. Also, their ship design rules.

I'll post some screenshots from the game sometime!

Good night!

i wasn't giving you a hard time and i'd love to see some shots!

i also have a tremendous amount of respect for Russian achievements thruout history, especially in WWII.

just remember that yankee ingenuity works well too! in Korea, even while giving the Russian (advisors) a safe haven behind the Yalu for bases and to form up for combat, the overmatched Sabers achieved an enviable kill/loss ratio agains clearly superior MIG's thru dicipline and superior tactics.

g'night!

jt ™.
Trash Hauler: call sign: eight-ball
C.O. AC-130H SpecOps 68kMLAAFGo to Top of Page
Hivemind
Starting Member


Liechtenstein
21 Posts		 Posted - 25 Jul 2002 :  12:16:09
Not that that proves anything...

Proud owner of the UnSignature™Go to Top of Page
scchicago
Full Member


USA
936 Posts		 Posted - 02 Aug 2002 :  11:32:21
Alright. This is getting confusing.

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