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Topic |
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SiliconValleyPirate
Junior Member
United Kingdom
273 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Apr 2002 : 14:36:09
I have an 840av with a 40GB ATA Hard disk in (god bless ACARD) but sadly it is about to lose the massive expanse of desert wasteland to my 7300/200 I have just bought. I have however managed to get a 9GB 10,000 rpm Seagate Cheetah 18XL and a NuBus Jackhammer card (not here yet) a little bird tells me someone around here has done this card shuffle in an 840av already, how fast is it, how easy is it and am I wasting my time? I do intend to use it for recording to video before anyone asks so it will have some use.--
Mark Benson Visit FlatPackMacs Online
<http://fpm.gotdns.com> |
alcoa
Full Member
Albania
543 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2002 : 15:01:52
quote:
I have an 840av with a 40GB ATA Hard disk in (god bless ACARD) but sadly it is about to lose the massive expanse of desert wasteland to my 7300/200 I have just bought. I have however managed to get a 9GB 10,000 rpm Seagate Cheetah 18XL and a NuBus Jackhammer card
yup, that'd be cinemafia, he'll be around shortly. how do you like the ACARD bridge? i need to order one for the removable IDE tray system i'm hacking into my IIfx.jt =8-} 
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cinemafia
Guerrilla Recon Leader
USA
2965 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2002 : 15:22:31
quote:
how fast is it?
I have a JackHammer and two Seagate 4GB 7,200 RPM UW drives setup in a level 0 RAID in my 840av. It generally gets between 12 and 18MB/sec transfers (the Jackhammer has a theoretical limit of 20MB/sec, but you'll most likely not ever see above 18), which is plenty for digital video. Without the RAID (just one disk at a time), I would get about 9-10MB/sec. quote:
how easy is it?
Very. I couldn't get mine to work at first, and spent weeks trying to find a driver, when one didn't exist. Turns out it was just a bad SCSI cable. The 840av has SCSI Manager 4.3 burner into its ROM, so you just pop the JackHammer card in, connect the drives, and you're off. Nothing fancy!quote:
and am I wasting my time?
Not at all, the 840av is a beautiful machine, and while the internal 50-pin SCSI host is faster than most other 68k's, it begs to have to have the best disk array possible. P.S. - That 10k rpm drive is going to get HOT, be careful with cooling! 
666th poster and 666th thread-creator
Mod of the Mac II series Forums
Total 68K Macs liberated: 7
Regular Disappear!
Edited by - cinemafia on 03 Apr 2002 15:35:41
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cinemafia
Guerrilla Recon Leader
USA
2965 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2002 : 15:28:20
P.S. - If you need advice on other aspects of video capture/editing on the 840av, feel free to ask!!!  666th poster and 666th thread-creator
Mod of the Mac II series Forums
Total 68K Macs liberated: 7
Regular Disappear! Edited by - cinemafia on 03 Apr 2002 15:35:25 |
SiliconValleyPirate
Junior Member
United Kingdom
273 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2002 : 05:36:49
quote:
I have a JackHammer and two Seagate 4GB 7,200 RPM UW drives setup in a level 0 RAID in my 840av. It generally gets between 12 and 18MB/sec transfers...
Is it worth running RAID 0 on a pair of drives (I have a 1GB UW drive spare as well) or will a single drive on it's ow run at the 18MB/s you stated? Also what RAID software do you use? quote:
Very
Nothing fancy!
What about formatting them. I've heard rumors you need HDT or something similar as Apple's tools don't recognise the drives.
quote:
Not at all, the 840av is a beautiful machine, and while the internal 50-pin SCSI host is faster than most other 68k's, it begs to have to have the best disk array possible.
Too damn right - I am on a mailing list where some members don't believe it is worth putting a 40GB hard disk in a Quadra 840av, no fun are they quote:
P.S. - That 10k rpm drive is going to get HOT, be careful with cooling!
Hmmm, I had a 4GB Micropolis 1/2 height in it to start with, I think I'll drop it in the lower bay just to give it some air methinks. --
Mark Benson Visit FlatPackMacs Online
<http://fpm.gotdns.com> |
danamania
Official 68k Muse
Australia
1193 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2002 : 05:51:55
quote:
a little bird tells me someone around here has done this card shuffle in an 840av already...
*tweettweettweet* welcome! dana
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Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER
USA
2899 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2002 : 06:36:49
quote:
quote:
Not at all, the 840av is a beautiful machine, and while the internal 50-pin SCSI host is faster than most other 68k's, it begs to have to have the best disk array possible.
Too damn right - I am on a mailing list where some members don't believe it is worth putting a 40GB hard disk in a Quadra 840av, no fun are they quote:
P.S. - That 10k rpm drive is going to get HOT, be careful with cooling!
Hmmm, I had a 4GB Micropolis 1/2 height in it to start with, I think I'll drop it in the lower bay just to give it some air methinks.
oh, yeah! welcome!*slaps forhead* i forgot that part, i was just so surprised to find someone actually using an ACARD bridge! which model do you have and how long have you been using it? how is the performance as compared to a native SCSI drive?
jt  ™
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danamania
Official 68k Muse
Australia
1193 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2002 : 06:41:06
quote:
Too damn right - I am on a mailing list where some members don't believe it is worth putting a 40GB hard disk in a Quadra 840av, no fun are they
It's worth putting a 40Gb drive in a Q605, if you ask me... (you never know when you'll need space...) dana
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cinemafia
Guerrilla Recon Leader
USA
2965 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2002 : 09:07:11
quote:
Is it worth running RAID 0 on a pair of drives (I have a 1GB UW drive spare as well) or will a single drive on it's ow run at the 18MB/s you stated?
No, a single drive will probably see 9-10MB/sec, as that's what I got when using a single, 7,200 rpm UW drive. However, keep in mind that all the drives in an array have to be the same size (and preferably the same model/brand, etc). You can't use a 9GB and a 1GB drive together in an array. quote:
what RAID software do you use?
Presently I'm using FWB RAID Toolkit. However, Connely SoftRAID tends to get better scores, but it's been very difficult to find an older, 68k version of it (1.x). I have SoftRAID 2.0, but it's PPC only. quote:
What about formatting them. I've heard rumors you need HDT or something similar as Apple's tools don't recognise the drives.
I would recommend FWB HDT, as it will format anything and works well in conjunction with FWB RT. You can get either on our hotline server or I can make it available to you otherwise! quote:
Too damn right - I am on a mailing list where some members don't believe it is worth putting a 40GB hard disk in a Quadra 840av, no fun are they
Ask Dana how she got a hold of her Quadra 950 with the NuVista+ and the AudioMedia II cards!!! quote:
Hmmm, I had a 4GB Micropolis 1/2 height in it to start with, I think I'll drop it in the lower bay just to give it some air methinks.
If you're not using all the power connectors, consider putting a secondary fan in the drive bay shelf to blow air upward and out the top of the machine. I was going to myself, but I'm using all the power connectors. So, when I'm doing heavy-duty rendering/etc, I sometimes just take the metal case off and let it breathe naturally.
666th poster and 666th thread-creator
Mod of the Mac II series Forums
Total 68K Macs liberated: 7
Regular Disappear!
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Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER
USA
2899 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2002 : 10:01:21
quote:
quote:
Hmmm, I had a 4GB Micropolis 1/2 height in it to start with, I think I'll drop it in the lower bay just to give it some air methinks.
If you're not using all the power connectors, consider putting a secondary fan in the drive bay shelf to blow air upward and out the top of the machine. I was going to myself, but I'm using all the power connectors. So, when I'm doing heavy-duty rendering/etc, I sometimes just take the metal case off and let it breathe naturally.
"Y" power cable adapters are very reasonable, everybody should stock a spare cable and a multiconnector internal SCSI cable, open case surgery is often a great troubleshooting workaround.open case running is not necessarily cooler than keeping the case closed. you are depending upon convection alone when open. when the case is closed the forced air caused by the fan can often be MORE efficient, depends on the setup of the system. *see footnote jt ™ * when the cooling fan on one end of my big plotter gave out i pulled the housing off the end and positioned a tabletop oscillating fan (oscillation off) under it pointing up to cool the steppers and transformers. i left it plotting the job overnight with my fingers crossed (i figured it was ok, but it might help!). it was fine and when i spoke to their tech that morning he told me not to run it until the replacement part came in. his reaction to my workaround was: oh! that'll work! <rolleyes> duh!
Edited by - Trash80toG-4 on 04 Apr 2002 10:04:40
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SiliconValleyPirate
Junior Member
United Kingdom
273 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2002 : 16:29:09
cinemafia says:quote:
No, a single drive will probably see 9-10MB/sec, as that's what I got when using a single, 7,200 rpm UW drive. However, keep in mind that all the drives in an array have to be the same size (and preferably the same model/brand, etc). You can't use a 9GB and a 1GB drive together in an array.
DOH, shoulda realised that. I can still hang them both on I'll just have to settle for 10MB/s it's still 2x the speed I have now. quote:
If you're not using all the power connectors, consider putting a secondary fan in the drive bay shelf to blow air upward and out the top of the machine. I was going to myself, but I'm using all the power connectors. So, when I'm doing heavy-duty rendering/etc, I sometimes just take the metal case off and let it breathe naturally.
I don't honestly think it needs it, the vent fan in the 840av is HUGE and draws air in from directly behind the drive bays and off the CPU at the same time, the airflow out of the rear fan is quite strong. I think, as it was an AV machine, Apple designed it to take high speed/performance AV drives (like the Micropolis I had - it got HOT) without extra air assistance. This is not some tacky Wintel case we are talking about here, even if it is a nightmare to work in! Trash80toG-4 says: quote:
"Y" power cable adapters are very reasonable, everybody should stock a spare cable and a multiconnector internal SCSI cable, open case surgery is often a great troubleshooting workaround.
Agreed. I always have 2 spares around at least. I used one when I ewas first testing the ACARD bridge in my 840av as the drive had to sit in the bottom, where the NuBus cards usually live, and the cable wouldn't reach. They are a few bucks from PC parts and electronics suppliers. quote:
open case running is not necessarily cooler than keeping the case closed. you are depending upon convection alone when open. when the case is closed the forced air caused by the fan can often be MORE efficient, depends on the setup of the system.
This is also true, although a direct fan on a CPU or something still works when the lid is off. Vent fans on the outside surfaces do not work with the case off unless they are ducted to the item that needs cooling or are right next to it. I did however used to manage to regularly achieve a 15degC temperature drop in my Athlon PC with the side off. --
Mark Benson Visit FlatPackMacs Online
<http://fpm.gotdns.com> |
Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER
USA
2899 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2002 : 16:36:06
quote:
This is also true, although a direct fan on a CPU or something still works when the lid is off. Vent fans on the outside surfaces do not work with the case off unless they are ducted to the item that needs cooling or are right next to it. I did however used to manage to regularly achieve a 15degC temperature drop in my Athlon PC with the side off.
psst! *whispers* macs don't usually have CPU fans, especially the ones we don't get flamed for mentioning here!am i gonna have to beg for your thoughts and recommendations about ACARD bridges? tia, jt ™
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SiliconValleyPirate
Junior Member
United Kingdom
273 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2002 : 16:50:08
Trash80toG-4:Do you not check that e-mail very often? I sent you 2 e-mails about ACARD stuff. Thanks for the tip on 'Back' avoidance. I thought it was OmniWeb.... --
Mark Benson Visit FlatPackMacs Online
<http://fpm.gotdns.com> |
cinemafia
Guerrilla Recon Leader
USA
2965 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2002 : 16:51:27
SPV - what are you using for video capture? AV accelerator card or 3rd-party capture card?666th poster and 666th thread-creator
Mod of the Mac II series Forums
Total 68K Macs liberated: 7
Regular Disappear! |
Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER
USA
2899 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2002 : 17:23:20
quote:
Do you not check that e-mail very often? I sent you 2 e-mails about ACARD stuff. Thanks for the tip on 'Back' avoidance. I thought it was OmniWeb....
de nada, it made me nuts for a long time, i shoulda saved the boilerplate.your mail must not be getting thru. i just tested and it forwarded automatically to my main address, but there has been nothing from you. do me a favor and try one more time, i wonder if the back key is screwing that up too! then post the info in a new topic in my peripherals forum, we've had a running discussion about those things here and on fritter. peripherals would be a great place to get it going now that someone with experience has enlisted. btw, call me jt or trash, the other thing is a keyboardfull!
do you want us to call you mark or SPV? most folks don't use the real names that i've seen.
jt ™
back again, i got them, silly me, i forgot i was in alcoa mode and that mailbox doesn't autoforward, now that my postcount got fixed i pobably won't use the alcoa alterego any more. your e-mails would make a GREAT topic starter in peripherals. we try to keep info like that out in the open so everybody can follow what they are interested in and make new discoveries. i've got this silly notion that the interaction of the people here and the freewheeling technical discussions are better content than a lot of the static sites. dunno, i'm a newbie. this post will be deep sixed after you ost the new topic, and thanks!
Edited by - Trash80toG-4 on 04 Apr 2002 17:39:37
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SiliconValleyPirate
Junior Member
United Kingdom
273 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2002 : 05:30:18
I personally find mailing lists and forums more helpful as you can talk to people about things rather than reading a page full of garbage.As for the ACARD stuff I didn't realise you were the same guy jt! Anyhow. I will head over to AppleFritter and post that stuff for you, might even have a look around while I'm there. If you want to address me by name Mark is fine, or SVP (not the order of the letters!!) if you don't like using my name. I ain't afraid of anyone knowing I'm a nonce --
Mark Benson Visit FlatPackMacs Online
http://fpm.gotdns.com |
Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER
USA
2899 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2002 : 09:26:31
quote:
I personally find mailing lists and forums more helpful as you can talk to people about things rather than reading a page full of garbage.As for the ACARD stuff I didn't realise you were the same guy jt! Anyhow. I will head over to AppleFritter and post that stuff for you, might even have a look around while I'm there. If you want to address me by name Mark is fine, or SVP (not the order of the letters!!) if you don't like using my name. I ain't afraid of anyone knowing I'm a nonce
actually, my peripherals forum is here, over there i'm just an interloper! fritter's way cool just like LEM, but i like it here, it's a a kind of cross between fritter and unplugged!
jt ™
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SiliconValleyPirate
Junior Member
United Kingdom
273 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2002 : 04:00:16
Just in case anyone was wondering I did actually get this up and working last week. I didn't get a JackHammer in the end I ended up with an ATTO SiliconExpress IV NuBus SCSI card instead which, as fas as I can tell, is faster by a margin due to the perculiar method it uses to communicate with the machine. With the help of a guy I know from LEM, I updated the BIOS and got it to actually work with Drive Setup with no hacking. This also resulted in a sustained write rate of 16MB/s, pretty impressive 
The BIOS I used, 2.1 BETA, is not a public release but it is apparently now avaiable on request from ATTO (http://attotech.com) by e-mail. It makes a massive difference over 1.6.5 (the last official release) but may be unstable on some systems (standard BETA disclaimer applies). I now have a completely UW-SCSI wired machine with only the CD drive residing on the internal bus.Thanks top those who helped :). --
Mark Benson Visit FlatPackMacs Online
http://fpm.gotdns.com We have feets Macs Liberated = 9 |
bigsadhu
Junior Member
Cayman Island
462 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2002 : 06:24:01
Going back a wee bit...You can't use a 9GB and a 1GB drive together in an array. From my understanding, this is incorrect. It should work fine, however in the case mentioned here, only 1 GB of the 9 GB would be used. YMMV. Cheers!
CC Current score: 1 eMate 300
1 Apple //e
2 LC IIs
1 LC III
1 LC 475
1 Quadra 605
1 Quadra 700
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1 PB 520c
2 Powermac 6100s
1 PowerComputing Powerbase 240
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cinemafia
Guerrilla Recon Leader
USA
2965 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2002 : 08:31:51
quote:
This also resulted in a sustained write rate of 16MB/s, pretty impressive
Heck yeah!!! Kick arse!!! The ATTO IV is definitely faster than the JackHammer!  quote:
It should work fine, however in the case mentioned here, only 1 GB of the 9 GB would be used.
Well, yeah, but that kinda defeats the purpose of having a 9GB drive... 666th poster and 666th thread-creator
Mod of the Mac II series Forums
Total 68K Macs liberated: 7
Regular Disappear! |
SiliconValleyPirate
Junior Member
United Kingdom
273 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2002 : 17:34:50
quote:
Well, yeah, but that kinda defeats the purpose of having a 9GB drive...
Surely a RAID Array is faster than a single drive though so it would be advantageous from a speed point of view. That said, my 1GB drive is only a 5400 rpm and clocks a puny 4.6MB/s so would slow it all down maybe... --
Mark Benson Visit FlatPackMacs Online
http://fpm.gotdns.com We have feets Macs Liberated = 9 |
Jackhammer in 840av
68k of the Week: kastegir's PowerBook 180.