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Cheese-4: knockoff G-4 case from CompUSA

Author	Topic
Trash80toG-4 NIGHT STALKER USA 2899 Posts	Posted - 30 Mar 2002 : 16:56:36 Sorry the 'pegs aren't great, i need to get my video lights out of storage or get a better digital camera. Allright, i've complained about apple’s boxes incessantly, now i've got a good example to share. if overall quality, fit and finish and aesthetic considerations were up to apple's standards, i wouldn't be calling this thing a cheese-4. But as i've checked it out, the disdain i initially felt for the look and feel shortcomings is being rapidly being overcome by my discoveries in the usability aspects of this blatant G-4 knockoff POS ATX box. the fit and finish struck me as abysmal at compusa, but its possibilities as a breakout box for my G-4 or the basis for a hack prompted me to bring one back to the shop. The fact that it had twice the removable drive capacity was a big factor. That coupled with the 300 watt power supply in an industry standard form factor for $70 made it an easy decision. when i take better shots i'll be sure to have the translucent gray door over the speaker/mike/dual USB breakout panel on the front open and light it well enough to see the full size 3.5" and 5.25" bays behind the swinging door filled with at least a removable drive tray or a soundblaster type breakout box that's only in your face when use. From the front, the boxier lines of this POS are readily apparent. The not so obvious improvements over the G-4's usability with which most Mac users would not be familiar with would be the bag of AT style drive mounting rails and the hardware to attach them to every drive in the box. The translucent front panel pops off just like the G-4's, but the drive rails and service accessibility make changing the CD in the ridiculous drive subassembly on the G-4 look even worse in comparison that it already did. The unbelievably tight tolerances in the G-4 version are impressive to behold, but the thing is as much a nightmare to service as the drop down door is a dream come true. There is a cavernous wasted space above the CD in the G-4, at the cost of two internal 3.5" drive trays, that space has been translated into 3.5" and 5.25" covered removable drive bays doubling the G-4's removable capacity and the top bezel has a trap door to cover a stack of utility/boot CD's with a panic-disk on top. A zip disk almost fits with the door closed, but a little filing of the center stud would be necessary for implementation. Now this thing is almost, but not really quite b**t-ugly, but it's growing on me and it serves to point out the kinds of refinements (and plain old upgrade capacity) that should be part of the macintosh design sensibilities. MacWorld is fond of praising the mac's "industrial design", but that is just what it is NOT, IMHO. the mac has great design, but it is in no way industrial and the runaway success of the industrially designed clones over apple's esthetically designed offerings should have made for a more robust series of offerings from apple, IMHO. I love my G-4 and still dislike a lot about this POS Cheese-4, but most of the exterior design i can hack, but the capabilities of the interior make it worth a little effort. jt ™
~Coxy Leader, Tactical Ops Unit Australia 2822 Posts	Posted - 30 Mar 2002 : 20:45:30 I suppose that you are one of those people who hopes the ANS II rumours are true... Don't get me wrong, it's just that a Monster Mac would steal the limelight from us 950 owners! ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit 68k Macintosh Liberation Army 00014 Macs liberated.
danamania Official 68k Muse Australia 1193 Posts	Posted - 30 Mar 2002 : 20:50:10 quote: I suppose that you are one of those people who hopes the ANS II rumours are true... Don't get me wrong, it's just that a Monster Mac would steal the limelight from us 950 owners! A six-foot-tall powermac, quad G4's, 31 PCI slots spread across several buses, 22 drive bays with a power supply big enough to jump-start a V8... all running coolly without a fan, and in a translucent indigo enclosure... that kinda thing? :D dana
Trash80toG-4 NIGHT STALKER USA 2899 Posts	Posted - 30 Mar 2002 : 20:50:51 quote: I suppose that you are one of those people who hopes the ANS II rumours are true... Don't get me wrong, it's just that a Monster Mac would steal the limelight from us 950 owners! what rumors? jt ™
Trash80toG-4 NIGHT STALKER USA 2899 Posts	Posted - 30 Mar 2002 : 20:54:52 quote: quote: I suppose that you are one of those people who hopes the ANS II rumours are true... Don't get me wrong, it's just that a Monster Mac would steal the limelight from us 950 owners! A six-foot-tall powermac, quad G4's, 31 PCI slots spread across several buses, 22 drive bays with a power supply big enough to jump-start a V8... all running coolly without a fan, and in a translucent indigo enclosure... that kinda thing? yeah babeeeeee! did anyone else notice that those morons in cupertino stopped putting serial ports on machines without ever having shipped a mac with more than 1.75 of the damned things in any model ever? B@$&@#^S! jt ™
danamania Official 68k Muse Australia 1193 Posts	Posted - 30 Mar 2002 : 20:58:10 quote: did anyone else notice that those morons in cupertino stopped putting serial ports on machines without ever having shipped a mac with more than 1.75 of the damned things in any model ever? B@$&@#^S! A six-foot-tall powermac, quad G4's, 31 PCI slots spread across several buses, 22 drive bays with a power supply big enough to jump-start a V8... all running coolly without a fan, and in a translucent indigo enclosure... *and a serial port!* dana
Trash80toG-4 NIGHT STALKER USA 2899 Posts	Posted - 30 Mar 2002 : 21:02:23 quote: quote: did anyone else notice that those morons in cupertino stopped putting serial ports on machines without ever having shipped a mac with more than 1.75 of the damned things in any model ever? B@$&@#^S! A six-foot-tall powermac, quad G4's, 31 PCI slots spread across several buses, 22 drive bays with a power supply big enough to jump-start a V8... all running coolly without a fan, and in a translucent indigo enclosure... *and a serial port!* . . . and SHUDDERSthree serial ports! GASPS jt ™ Edited by - trash80toG-4 on 30 Mar 2002 21:04:35
AnubisTTP Junior Member USA 308 Posts	Posted - 31 Mar 2002 : 07:16:31 quote: . . . and SHUDDERSthree serial ports! GASPS <sarcasm> Hey now, lets be realistic. Why make extra serial ports when they could put in multiple ADB ports. ADB is a bus that only requires one port becuse the input devices can be daisy chained, but serial items each need their own port. So giving that extra piece of motherboard real estate to another ADB port instead of more serial ports is apparently the best move. </sarcasm> AnubisTTP 68k Macintosh Liberation Army Macs Liberated:15
Trash80toG-4 NIGHT STALKER USA 2899 Posts	Posted - 31 Mar 2002 : 07:34:51 quote: quote: . . . and SHUDDERSthree serial ports! GASPS <sarcasm> Hey now, lets be realistic. Why make extra serial ports when they could put in multiple ADB ports. ADB is a bus that only requires one port becuse the input devices can be daisy chained, but serial items each need their own port. So giving that extra piece of motherboard real estate to another ADB port instead of more serial ports is apparently the best move. </sarcasm> !!! a parallel port would be kinda nice too, i was really looking forward to CHRP machines, Apple hardware sucks! it's kinda like howard cosell, i just LOVE to hate it! Mac's rock despite everything Apple does to make the hardware as lame as possible, it's kind of an insanely great hardware/insanely stupid limitations split personality disorder. the only thing worse than apple engineering is apple's marketing, and maybe the management that KNOWS what their users want well enough to not bother to figure out why they've never managed to achieve a deeper market penetration. jt ™
~Coxy Leader, Tactical Ops Unit Australia 2822 Posts	Posted - 31 Mar 2002 : 20:13:35 A few points I'd like to make: 1)Only a very few machines actually had more than one ADB port, you know... 2)Parallel ports were crappy and old fashioned... 3)I like to use a lot of ellipses... 4)And I'm struggling to think of what you'd do with lots of serial ports... ! ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit 68k Macintosh Liberation Army 00014 Macs liberated.
Trash80toG-4 NIGHT STALKER USA 2899 Posts	Posted - 31 Mar 2002 : 21:59:57 quote: A few points I'd like to make: 1)Only a very few machines actually had more than one ADB port, you know... parallel ports are freakin' awesome, much better than an adbio, much faster for printing than mac serial, and compatable as all get out with almost every printer ever made which is probably why apple never used them! the three i NEEDED: printer modem plotter (2 actually) and switchboxes are no good because the settings need to be changed. some i wanted: palm cradle quicktake jt ™ Edited by - trash80toG-4 on 31 Mar 2002 22:36:28
~Coxy Leader, Tactical Ops Unit Australia 2822 Posts	Posted - 31 Mar 2002 : 22:27:00 Does "Printer Port" in your reply mean "Parallel Port"? Just wondering... ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit 68k Macintosh Liberation Army 00014 Macs liberated.
Trash80toG-4 NIGHT STALKER USA 2899 Posts	Posted - 31 Mar 2002 : 22:34:26 quote: Does "Printer Port" in your reply mean "Parallel Port"? Just wondering... yup! jt ™
~Coxy Leader, Tactical Ops Unit Australia 2822 Posts	Posted - 01 Apr 2002 : 00:33:31 And how fast is this "Printer Port", exactly? ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit 68k Macintosh Liberation Army 00014 Macs liberated.
Trash80toG-4 NIGHT STALKER USA 2899 Posts	Posted - 01 Apr 2002 : 05:46:12 quote: And how fast is this "Printer Port", exactly? ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit 68k Macintosh Liberation Army 00014 Macs liberated. a little slower than scsi on an SE. jt ™
~Coxy Leader, Tactical Ops Unit Australia 2822 Posts	Posted - 01 Apr 2002 : 05:58:51 ??? Internal, or external? ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit 00014 Macs liberated
Trash80toG-4 NIGHT STALKER USA 2899 Posts	Posted - 01 Apr 2002 : 07:08:25 quote: ??? Internal, or external? they're the same on an SE, no? i don't have have the numbers at my fingertips, but a the original epson stylus color print speeds were at least three times faster on a PC and even the serial to parallel converter's were more efficient from a mac, but that's more than likely do to comms optimization & driver tricks which also point to the weakness of rs422 over the parallel port standard. google for some i/o charts and share thim in the links project, most mac types have no idea about the good things about other platforms and how they compare to the bad things on the mac because so many of the simpleton ra-ra types make so much noise it drowns out informed discussion and learning for everybody. IMNAHEO jt ™
~Coxy Leader, Tactical Ops Unit Australia 2822 Posts	Posted - 02 Apr 2002 : 07:02:34 Actually, I looked in whatis.com, webopedia.com and the first few hits from Google... no dice on the speed of a parallel port! ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit 00014 Macs liberated
Trash80toG-4 NIGHT STALKER USA 2899 Posts	Posted - 02 Apr 2002 : 07:23:16 quote: Actually, I looked in whatis.com, webopedia.com and the first few hits from Google... no dice on the speed of a parallel port! search parameters: i/o speed comparison scsi parallel serial i should have searched within the results to narrow it, but i bulled thru to the 3rd page after trying about four links that looked slightly promising, pulled an all-nighter . . zzzzz!. . . . http://www.a1-electronics.co.uk/PcHardware/Connections.shtml google a little more to find a couple of better qualifiers and then post it in the . . . . . . . zzzzzz jt ™
~Coxy Leader, Tactical Ops Unit Australia 2822 Posts	Posted - 03 Apr 2002 : 07:45:16 As far as I can see from that page (thanx, BTW) the PC parallel is 5 times slower than standard SCSI and their seial is half as fast as ours... ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit 00014 Macs liberated
Trash80toG-4 NIGHT STALKER USA 2899 Posts	Posted - 03 Apr 2002 : 08:57:40 quote: As far as I can see from that page (thanx, BTW) the PC parallel is 5 times slower than standard SCSI and their seial is half as fast as ours... not real1y, 68k SCSI 1 ranged from approx. 1.25 to about a max. of 3 on a IIfx. RS422 is a much better standard than RS232 for a lot of things, but i didn't know it was significantly faster, what kind of comparisons have you seen? parallel is still a much faster standard interface than serial and a much simpler implementation than SCSI. but it would have allowed the use of non-apple branded printers. my color stylewriter pro was nice, but the epson stylus color was a LOT more versatile and the arrangements kept canon and apple BOTH from competing on an even footing with epson. is apple out of the printer business finally? i haven't noticed, i haven't considered even thinking about one as a viable option in a LONG time! jt ™
~Coxy Leader, Tactical Ops Unit Australia 2822 Posts	Posted - 03 Apr 2002 : 18:29:55 Yes they are, but they always were one of the best laser manufacturers... they consistently won comparisons in print quality! Anyway, the speed of the serial port is ~252(?) kbps when in AppleTalk mode. Plain old modem serial is slower, however: ~56 k. ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit 00014 Macs liberated
alcoa Full Member Albania 543 Posts	Posted - 03 Apr 2002 : 19:12:40 quote: Anyway, the speed of the serial port is ~252(?) kbps when in AppleTalk mode. Plain old modem serial is slower, however: ~56 k. so the printer poort is roughly 4x appletalk throughput. the modem connect speed is limited by the modem/pots bottleneck, not the serial connection. say the mac's serial comms speed equals RS-232, then parallel is about 8.5x the serial throughput. somebody else said that a printer cable was many times slower than appletalk way back when. they were probably confusing modem connection bottlenecks with null modem serial comms, which would be at least 115 kbps. (unless apple botched yet another implementation of an industry standard.} quote: Serial connection. The RS-232 9-pin com ports we are all used to. These are capable of data transfers up to 115 kbps. It is a relatively slow, low-bandwidth ideal for modems, mice and such like. But with modern serial drivers you can use leads of up to 15 meters, so this is a very handy connection type. Parallel connection. The bidirectional Enhanced Parallel Port (EPP) was designed primarily for parallel storage devices such as CD-ROM's, tape drives and a few external hard disk drives. The Extended Capability Port (ECP) is also bidirectional but this is for more modern faster printers and scanners. Both of these types EPP & ECP are about 8 times quicker than the old Centronics standard, at about 1Mbps. bery early early parallel ports were only 2-300bps all the more modern bidirectional implementations are 1000-1200 bps. found a good serial communications page! http://www.groupipc.com/Products/pmc_products/Dir137.html jt =8-}
~Coxy Leader, Tactical Ops Unit Australia 2822 Posts	Posted - 03 Apr 2002 : 21:31:34 If you're referring to (Mac) file sharing over a standard (Mac) printer cable, then maybe it is sub-standard, since it goes at 57.6 kbps. ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit 00014 Macs liberated
~Coxy Leader, Tactical Ops Unit Australia 2822 Posts	Posted - 03 Apr 2002 : 21:33:07 Have you ever noticed how much these threads wax and wane? From cheapo PC cases to serial/parallel port speeds! In the UNIX forum: From installing A/UX to giant wombats!! And the LOUNGE! Man, I don't wanna go there (but frequently do.) ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit 00014 Macs liberated
alcoa Full Member Albania 543 Posts	Posted - 03 Apr 2002 : 21:41:53 quote: If you're referring to (Mac) file sharing over a standard (Mac) printer cable, then maybe it is sub-standard, since it goes at 57.6 kbps. where did you get the information about a 57.6 port speed with a printer (null modem) cable? jt p.s. regarding wombats and other thread detours, the recurring feets theme has to be my favorite!
~Coxy Leader, Tactical Ops Unit Australia 2822 Posts	Posted - 03 Apr 2002 : 22:22:15 I think it was in a Macworld magazine somewhere... Google searches have revealed that I may be wrong, since various sites make no distinction in speed. ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit 00014 Macs liberated
Trash80toG-4 NIGHT STALKER USA 2899 Posts	Posted - 03 Apr 2002 : 22:31:47 quote: I think it was in a Macworld magazine somewhere... macworld is by far the worst of all mac mags i've ever been exposed to on technical issues. the thruput of a serial to serial connection is supposed to be something like 70% of that of 10baseT for file transfer. this is due to the communications overhead of the networking protocal as i recall. a null modem connection doesn't handshake constantly during a transfer, it sends it and then checksums at the end if the terminal emulators are setup correctly (my vague understanding, could well be mistaken, it might also have been a macworld article!) i wouldn't be at all surprised if null modem file transfers weren't FASTER than appletalk file transfers over phonenet for the very same reasons. jt ™ tee hee! thinks googling must be contageous! Edited by - Trash80toG-4 on 03 Apr 2002 22:36:06
Marchie Chaplain USA 911 Posts	Posted - 04 Apr 2002 : 20:03:21 Time for me to weigh in... Modern macs need to have more bays in them, and have the interior space for it. Period, we all agree on that I think. My G4 has a Keyspan 4 port serial card in it. when I was in Calc class and OS 9 (or 8.6 !) I was useing 3 of them constantly (calculator interface, a printer, and Newton) Recently, I've used more than this and have filled 4 more ports on USB adapters. YUes, 7 serial portsd, all at the same time.This includes calc and newton interface, hard line serial terminal experiments, and console management of networking hardware. When it comes to speed of connections, the top speed on an RS422 port is 230,000 bits per second. I've had serial -> serial connections run in the +200kb area. AppleTalk over serial is rated at 2.4 kilo bits per second, but that includeing compression. Most of the motherboard manufacturers would LOVE to get rid of parralel and serial ports. with the advent of USB, they are quite worthless, and more expensive to deal with than USB. The reason they aren't gone is because even in Windows 2000, enough of the old DOS is there, that without a serial or parralel port in the mobo code, Windows won't start. The division of US Robotics for a short time made a moboard without parralel and serial, and jsut USB, by putting the IC chip code for both on a stub chip on the board. consumers didn't go for it, because Windows SHOWED the ports in the Device Manager, and "If Windows shows it, why isn't it on the back of my computer?" I've talked to many Linux users that would love to just scrap serial and parralel ports altogether, and use USB. Given the higher bandwidth, a powered bus, and hot plugging, who needs the old tech? Maybe I'll write more later. The rows of stars above say W I N D O W S. Can we PLEASE make the forums stop doing that? ~Marchie ~Chaplain Marchie Holder of the Compact Mac - -Stick of Justice, with Explodeing CRT head -Wand of Power with Shocking Flyback Transformer Tip ~~"We are all Mad here"~~
~Coxy Leader, Tactical Ops Unit Australia 2822 Posts	Posted - 04 Apr 2002 : 22:11:41 Alright, alright, fine then! ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit 00014 Macs liberated
Trash80toG-4 NIGHT STALKER USA 2899 Posts	Posted - 05 Apr 2002 : 16:22:11 quote: Most of the motherboard manufacturers would LOVE to get rid of parralel and serial ports. with the advent of USB, they are quite worthless, and more expensive to deal with than USB. The reason they aren't gone is because even in Windows 2000, enough of the old DOS is there, that without a serial or parralel port in the mobo code, Windows won't start. The division of US Robotics for a short time made a moboard without parralel and serial, and jsut USB, by putting the IC chip code for both on a stub chip on the board. consumers didn't go for it, because Windows SHOWED the ports in the Device Manager, and "If Windows shows it, why isn't it on the back of my computer?" I've talked to many Linux users that would love to just scrap serial and parralel ports altogether, and use USB. Given the higher bandwidth, a powered bus, and hot plugging, who needs the old tech? mfr's, os builders, and 'nixies are all correct in wanting to reclaim the limited system resources hogged by these ancient interfaces. however, much to their and to apples dismay, consumers vote with their wallets for the things that make sense to THEM. nearly 100% of knowledgable PC types avoid any kind of proprietary mobo or case if there is any reasonable standardized alternative. when gateway went to proprietary mobos/cases, they went from growth to decline. compaq, hp, anyone who eschewed the upgradeable standardized POS PC you can build or upgrade at home with your kidspec. has met with problems in the marketplace. the consumer knows that USB is not a viable substitute for interfacing to the gazillion existing peripherals! converters, while fine in most situations, in many applications, just plain flat out DON'T WORK! the vast majority of the public wants pc's and printers with printer ports and the pc's and printers mostly still come with them and probably will for the forseeable future. . . . and apples market share is near the all time low of about 3%! <rant mode> apple seems never have learned this lesson, line after line of macs ship with components incompatable with previous mac generations, much less near universal industry standards! there can be no reasonable excuse for the absurd number of (mac to mac, even!) incompatable custom PSU's designed and built in small quantities by apple! over 95% of the public has voted time and again with their wallets and apple seems incapable of reading the marketing tea leaves as well as your example of USRobotics! the customer is ALWAYS right, apple is ALWAYS wrong where it matters most, with the buying public. the idiot in the black turtleneck says he would like for apple to be seen as a competitor of sony's, which reveals a hubris that i cannot believe has has remained unexposed. in his arrogance, ignoring the consumer, he continually strives for an insanely incompatible, but gorgeously designed, technically superior product line in an effort that is almost an exact historical parallel that positions apple in the role of the sony betamax division in what is unquestionably a VHS world! make the macs parts fit industry standard form factors wherever the forms function and adapt the mac's forms to follow that function just a LITTLE bit anyway! </rant mode> all a matter of personal opinion, of course! jt ™ Edited by - Trash80toG-4 on 05 Apr 2002 16:32:07
maclover5 LC Doctor/Hot Rodder Australia 5830 Posts	Posted - 08 Apr 2002 : 05:48:20 quote: Alright, alright, fine then! ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit 00014 Macs liberated Windows. Now for a few more tests: Classic Matsushita Assistant Remember the funky MAF filter anyone? -------------------------- Pizzabox LCs RULE!!!!!!! Warrior maclover5 68k Macintosh Liberation Army Number of 68ks Liberated: 6!!! QFW68KPB Project SUCCESS!!!!!
maclover5 LC Doctor/Hot Rodder Australia 5830 Posts	Posted - 08 Apr 2002 : 05:50:26 quote: quote: Alright, alright, fine then! ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit 00014 Macs liberated Windows. Now for a few more tests: Classic Matsushita Assistant Remember the funky MAF filter anyone? -------------------------- Pizzabox LCs RULE!!!!!!! Warrior maclover5 68k Macintosh Liberation Army Number of 68ks Liberated: 6!!! QFW68KPB Project SUCCESS!!!!! LOL it blocked Matsush1ta! Now that really is a Matsushita of an idea!!!!!!! -------------------------- Pizzabox LCs RULE!!!!!!! Warrior maclover5 68k Macintosh Liberation Army Number of 68ks Liberated: 6!!! QFW68KPB Project SUCCESS!!!!!
~Coxy Leader, Tactical Ops Unit Australia 2822 Posts	Posted - 08 Apr 2002 : 18:32:15 I'm annoyed about that too, because Matsushita is a damn fine company. If it was turned off, however, people would say shit and stuff, and if it didn't parse words then shithead would be let through. ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit 00014 Macs liberated
maclover5 LC Doctor/Hot Rodder Australia 5830 Posts	Posted - 09 Apr 2002 : 05:39:33 quote: I'm annoyed about that too, because Matsushita is a damn fine company. If it was turned off, however, people would say shit and stuff, and if it didn't parse words then shithead would be let through. ~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit 00014 Macs liberated Agreed. -------------------------- Pizzabox LCs RULE!!!!!!! Warrior maclover5 68k Macintosh Liberation Army Number of 68ks Liberated: 6!!! QFW68KPB Project SUCCESS!!!!!
cory5412 68KMLA Comrade-in-Arms USA 4679 Posts	Posted - 07 Aug 2002 : 13:05:10 that case on the top of the thread is a cheapo knockoff of a Hewlett Packard case, but there is other cases that crudely take design elements of nice Apple computers (Have you seen that eMachines computer the "eOne"?) I've seen cases with a handle on the front, and cases that have doors with little handles that have circle holes, and I've seen cases that are "translucent" and come in several colors
Slomac636 Junior Member USA 103 Posts	Posted - 09 Aug 2002 : 23:40:37 Hey watch out there!! my Perf636CD has a "Matsus*a" CD-Rom drive in it and it'll read just about anything I put in there. On the other hand, the Wintel box (NOT MINE!) across the room has a ??????? brand drive and sometimes, it doesn't even like a Windoze disk. Seriously, I've never had any probs with that Matsus*a drive.
maclover5 LC Doctor/Hot Rodder Australia 5830 Posts	Posted - 10 Aug 2002 : 02:30:21 quote: (Have you seen that eMachines computer the "eOne"?) THEY STILL MAKE THOSE HIDEIOUS THINGS?????? -------------------------- Pizzabox LCs RULE!!!!!!! Warrior maclover5 68k Macintosh Liberation Army Number of 68ks Liberated: 6

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