Virtual modem

[opualuan]

I’d like to hook up two 68k macs over virtual modem links (or localtalk) over the internet for gaming. Theoldnet adapters look perfect for this- rs232 to wifi w/modem emulation.

Unfortunately they are not in stock (discontinued?). I’ve run across similar projects such as gurumodem but also does not seem to be available. Is there a current version of this type of device available? Am I missing a better solution? Appreciate the guidance!

 

[mikes-macs]

Perhaps you could scan the Trade forum or eBay for one of those.

 

[mikes-macs]

I'm skeptical of this being able to do AppleTalk over WiFi.

 

[robin-fo]

I'm skeptical of this being able to do AppleTalk over WiFi.

The Old Net will certainly not work with AppleTalk in any case except maybe with AppleTalk Remote Access.

However, AirTalk or GlobalTalk are two completely different things which might both be relevant to your quest.

 

[cheesestraws]

Modem emulators will not do LocalTalk. LocalTalk is not RS232 and is not point-to-point, it's point-to-multipoint, which has historically been a right pain in the backside to do well on the Internet (until a year ago this was what I did professionally). It's not just a point-to-multipoint thing, though, LocalTalk on the wire is decidedly different from RS232.

Some modem emulators, which just backhaul the whole serial connection (so are suitable for, say, BBSes) run AppleTalk over PPP or ARA or similar, but you'll need the other end of that somewhere else. Farallon Liaison will also do AppleTalk over dialup and that is on the Garden (I know because I uploaded it). You may be able to get away with putting the far end of the dialup connection on an emulator somewhere (I have vague memories that @Realitystorm did this at one point, but I may be misremembering), and that would give you approximately what you need. That was what these dialup bits were designed for: to have a distributed AppleTalk network over standard long-distance RS232-ish links.

A more direct option would be that bbraun did a kind of "AppleTalk VPN", but it might be tricky to get working - I've never tried.

An option that will give you more speed and more flexibility but more complexity is to use IP tunneling. Apple Internet Router will do this for you, which is what I believe the GlobalTalk people are using (though I don't participate in GlobalTalk myself). Other router manufacturers had similar stuff; I have briefly run a transatlantic AppleTalk network using Gatorboxes, for example. I'll note, though, that these don't follow modern best practices in a number of areas (because they're not modern, so that's hardly a criticism) so expose them to the Internet with care, and don't expect too much of them.

AirTalk will only help you in one of two circumstances: you create a big virtual broadcast domain with something like ZeroTier, or you invent a time machine, go back in time and make the multicast internet not fail. Both of these present practical issues.

 

[mikes-macs]

I knew someone knowledgeable would be able to explain why AppleTalk games probably wouldn’t connect correctly using theoldnet Wi-Fi adapter.
To be clear only AppleTalk enabled games are not going to connect but there are games that connect peer to peer via a modem link without AppleTalk being involved Those type of games may connect.
I have Apple Internet Router installed in conjunction with a private PBX and Apple Remote Access. For vintage Macs connected to my PBX, the client Mac calls the router Mac modem to modem and once connected to the AppleTalk network, the client Mac can play games and file share with any vintage Mac on the router Mac’s AppleTalk Network. This is okay for modem to modem connections in the same place but channeling this connection over IP involves tunneling which is over my head.
I vaguely remember things like AppleTalk/IP Wide Area Extension or Bbraun’s neat stuff but I have never used them.

 

[cheesestraws]

...why AppleTalk games probably wouldn’t connect correctly using theoldnet Wi-Fi adapter.

I'm afraid Apple's own naming strategy made things here much more complicated than they needed to be. Originally, AppleTalk only referred to LocalTalk, so some (especially early) software that claims to be AppleTalk compatible is actually only LocalTalk compatible. But if became obvious that LocalTalk on its own wasn't going to cut it, so AppleTalk came to refer to that set of protocols over any layer 2 network - so over the newly-renamed LocalTalk, or Ethernet, or Token Ring. And software that supports AppleTalk in that sense will usually quite happily run over a dialup or ARA or whatever connection. But which of the two is meant depends on who wrote the document you're reading and when it was written - and some people even now use AppleTalk just to mean LocalTalk and nothing else. It's all rather silly and could have been avoided, but wasn't. Oh well. Hindsight, &c.

I have Apple Internet Router installed in conjunction with a private PBX and Apple Remote Access. For vintage Macs connected to my PBX, the client Mac calls the router Mac modem to modem and once connected to the AppleTalk network, the client Mac can play games and file share with any vintage Mac on the router Mac’s AppleTalk Network.

Now that's a fun setup!

 

[mikes-macs]

I'm afraid Apple's own naming strategy made things here much more complicated than they needed to be

Agreed. It took me years to grasp the naming conventions and still I sometimes get them confused. LocalTalk, EtherTalk, AppleTalk over PPP, TokenTalk, IrTalk are AppleTalk over the respective network topologies. AppleTalk over IP is not necessarily EtherTalk. The original point is I don’t believe there is WiFiTalk. Maybe it can be explained clearer by someone.

 

[Realitystorm]

You may be able to get away with putting the far end of the dialup connection on an emulator somewhere (I have vague memories that @Realitystorm did this at one point, but I may be misremembering), and that would give you approximately what you need.

Good memory. I used a null modem cable to link an SE to my windows PC. But it sounds like @opualuan wants to bridge across the Internet. Unless there is some way for both to connect to the same modern system and ARA server could link the two into one network...

 

[cheesestraws]

Good memory. I used a null modem cable to link an SE to my windows PC. But it sounds like @opualuan wants to bridge across the Internet. Unless there is some way for both to connect to the same modern system and ARA server could link the two into one network...

Not that good a memory - I thought you'd hooked up the emulated serial port to a TCP connection. Though I think Basilisk II could do that, in which case you could run B II in a VM somewhere online and use one of the modem emulator dongles to "dial up" to it.

 

[mikes-macs]

To complicate matters even more, there's Classic Networking and OpenTransport.

 

[opualuan]

I’d settle for some of the peer-to-peer modem games working. I tried rs232 serial tunneling adapters but wasn’t able to get it working long-distance. Has anyone gotten this to work with theoldnet or other similar wifi modems?

 

[Realitystorm]

Do you have to emulate a modem connection for the games? If you can get a VPN connection going between the two networks so that the two Macintosh systems can see each other via a TCP/IP connection, you should be able to setup AppleTalk over TCP/IP between the two. I would assume most Macintosh games that support peer-to-peer modem connections would also support AppleTalk connections on what would appear to them to be a local network.

 

[opualuan]

I’m not sure how easy the vpn part of it is. Running AIR on each side on vintage hw is a lot. Wonder if it would run under emulation on a rpi?

 

[mikes-macs]

Well the problem is that many vintage Macintosh, multiplayer games are over Localtalk. To create/join a game a chooser-like browser comes up to choose which Mac to make the connection with. Most of those games do not have a place to enter an IP address for Appletalk over IP. If these games did have a way to enter an IP your way would most definitely be a great solution.
The peer-to-peer modem connection type games are just like a phone call between two computers. I think making those work over the internet is not a great solution. I would just get a land line for each end and call it day.

 

[Realitystorm]

The games don't need to be TCP/IP aware, I was referring to using the AppleTalk/IP Wide Area Extension so the OS deals with the AppleTalk tunnel over TCP/IP. After that is setup the games should be able to connect over AppleTalk as if they are on the same Local talk network

The AppleTalk/IP Wide Area Extension:
- Enables two or more AppleTalk networks to communicate through a TCP/IP
network
- "Tunnels" AppleTalk packets over TCP/IP backbone networks
- Offers configuration by IP address, host name, or "guest"
- Supports Ethernet or Token Ring

 

[mikes-macs]

Nice! I thought you were talking about a VPN. I’d like to see that in action. That would be fantastic. Would both sides of the connection need to have the same setup? Would any ports need to be forwarded on the main router?

 

[Realitystorm]

I assumed a VPN connection between networks at the hardware level so the two macs on the two networks could see each other via TCP/IP with AppleTalk over TCP/IP running on top of that. Another option could be using Basilisk II running on a modern system as a bridge. Modern system connects to remote network via VPN. Basilisk II is running on the modern system, vintage system connects to Basilisk II via a null modem cable.

It is all probably double, but latency may be an issue

 

[mikes-macs]

I’m about to give this a try. I really think you’re on to something here. I have two internet connections here so I’ll setup two ends with your scenario using the wide are extension.

 

[mikes-macs]

I had success with this. I installed the Apple Internet Router Wide Area Extension on both networks. Setup was really easy. I did need to forward port TCP port 548 and TCP/UDP port 427 to allow afp through.
Once connected, both sides can access file shares from either network and i had success with multiplayer games.
Ii did not try the VPN method.