Server Software

[zimwhatzim]

I've looked around a bit here, but I cannot seem to find any forums specific to server software. Does it exist? If not...mods can we possibly have one created? I know it's a bit niche, but some of us (well, at least me ) are really into all things server in the Mac world. I'm always looking to expand my horizons as well...there are lots of pieces of software I don't know much about. The early AppleShare IP stuff, for example. Anyway, just a thought

 

[Elfen]

It depends on what kind of server software you want. Web, FTP, Gopher, Filesharing, Telnet, etc. Things are easier for System 7 as File Sharing is on System 7 and even Web on the later versions of System 7 and 8. And as stated, it depends on what Mac you are using and what system is on that Mac.

So, I dare ask, what is your Wish List on Mac Server software on what your system is?

 

[zimwhatzim]

It depends on what kind of server software you want. Web, FTP, Gopher, Filesharing, Telnet, etc. Things are easier for System 7 as File Sharing is on System 7 and even Web on the later versions of System 7 and 8. And as stated, it depends on what Mac you are using and what system is on that Mac.

So, I dare ask, what is your Wish List on Mac Server software on what your system is?

I meant more the "specialized" versions of Mac software developed just for workgroups and the enterprise. Not that file and web sharing on the client systems is useless, it's incredibly useful in my view, but there were always more heavy duty solutions. At this point I have my "modern" server (2009 Mac Pro running 10.11 Server 5), my early 2000's server (G4 with 10.3 server)...now I'm after a pre OS X server. Maybe gopher, some sort of telnet service like a bbs (that's a big maybe). Beyond setting this stuff up I'm simply interested in reading and hearing about other people's setups. You run across them every now and then, but they are pretty rare. I know there was a guy running a IIci server for years (little dork) that's now offline, sadly. 

 

[CelGen]

You mean like Appleshare Server and Appleshare IP?

Those were the only software bundles Apple ever offered in the Classic days for running a mac as a legit server machine that I recall. There was that Apple Network Server thing that ran AIX and a bunch of Appleshare utilities hanging off that but most people I know just ran something like Windows 2000 Server or Microsoft Windows Server 2003 which included Appletalk file and print support.

Frankly, every attempt Apple made to offer dedicated servers and software were terrible.

 

[galgot]

NetPresenz do can Ftp , http and Gopher server. Works well. I've yet to try other gopher servers...

If you have a more recent machine (OSX) , you can install Bucktooth gopher server , which is very cool and convenient for serving files to 68ks machines.

For vnc there is os9vnc server (PPC) or ChromniVNC server (68k).

Not sure what was the Apple soft for http and files server, was AppleShare IP I think.

For telnet and SSH, I think there is only clients . 

I've seen also a thing called HyperBBS, think it's a hypercard stuff running a BBS , but didn't try it.

Then , there Mac OSX server 1.2, aka Rhapsody. 

 

[Elfen]

Both GlenCel and Galgot explain it well.

There was not much in "Enterprise Networking" Macs before System 7.5 and Appleshare server and AppleIP were just attempts on making it so even though they work extremely well. Macs were more like Peer-to-Peer Service than 1 Server-Many Clients networks. Many schools ran the "teacher's station" as the server machine with some 200+ accounts (I seen as high as 2700 accounts in some schools) on Appleshare Server. It is not until System 8 & 9 did Apple get serious in networking for business. They finally got their act together with OSX, and that was in 2000.

But many companies created their own Server Software for Mac, Like Galgot stated NetPrenz. A great package that adds to the limited Apple File Sharing on System 7 (and no-file sharing on System 6). MacTen/WenTen is another Mac Server system by Tennon which works well with OS8 & 9. And there is A/UX.

 

[beachycove]

Errrrr, so that would be why Apple sold AppleShare software from v.1 up to v.6 for several hundreds a pop, along with the AWS series right through the 68030-G4 eras? Not to mention the PowerTalk server software? And the Apple Internet Router and the AppleTalk IP Extension? And A/UX and AIX, complete with the unique Workgroup Servers that ran AIX? And products like the Internet Server Solution once the www began? Because they weren't serious about it, and because there was no genuine market for their products in the niche fields of publishing and education?

(I like their servers too.)

 

[Elfen]

That's the point. Anything past a IIvx/IIvi, most '030 Macs were System 7 and not System 6. Only '030 Macs that could run System 6 were the IIx, IIfx, IIcx, IIci, IIsi, SE\30, LC II, and a couple of PowerBooks (don't know about the 100 series, but the 210 did and perhaps the 230 could).

AppleShare was not "Enterprise Server" quality, not in its early years. And they did not have file protection that MS Win Server and Unix Servers have at the time so you and a co-worker work on the same file at the same time and when its time to save the file, one user over writes the other's work. Apple had to do a lot of growing up to do for the server market for their equipment as very little was done for it, they believed themselves to be educational, and outside of a university, what school ran a server? It was right up to the mid 90s and System 7 that Apple still thought that K-12 students can still carry floppy disks of their school work. imagine doing that today.

This was the Apple Mindset prior to System 7 - 1 computer, 1 user. And that's it. Thus for a long time in schools, student users all used the same desktop and the same computers over and over. If their disk failed, they were either out of luck or had a computer teacher like me that tried to recover their work.

I'll admit that things got better with System 7 though there many things about System 7 that many did not like, so the transition for many from 6 to 7 was not an easy one... so unlike the transition PC users did from Win 3.1 to Win 95, it was much easier for them. And having Users/Groups login ability was not as perfect either.

If you want Enterprise level networking on a Mac, you should start at System 7.5. That would keep all of the '030 Macs and even the 68K Macs. By then PowerPC was out and people were making the move to it. But keep in mind that it was not as mature as Windows Enterprise or Unix Servers of the time.

Do you remember "At-Ease"?

 

[CelGen]

Errrrr, so that would be why Apple sold AppleShare software from v.1 up to v.6 for several hundreds a pop, along with the AWS series right through the 68030-G4 eras? Not to mention the PowerTalk server software? And the Apple Internet Router and the AppleTalk IP Extension? And A/UX and AIX, complete with the unique Workgroup Servers that ran AIX? And products like the Internet Server Solution once the www began? Because they weren't serious about it, and because there was no genuine market for their products in the niche fields of publishing and education?

(I like their servers too.)

Apple tried making a PROPER server solution back in the Macintosh Office days but once Steve was out the door they dismantled both ongoing projects and scrapped plans for licensing Unix from AT&T or Apollo (I can't remember exactly). They never really recovered from that idiotic decision and spent all the time until the Xserve struggling to sell a server.

 

[Elfen]

Apple tried making a PROPER server solution back in the Macintosh Office days but once Steve was out the door they dismantled both ongoing projects and scrapped plans for licensing Unix from AT&T or Apollo (I can't remember exactly). They never really recovered from that idiotic decision and spent all the time until the Xserve struggling to sell a server.

There's never a "LIKE" Button around to press when you need one.

 

[zimwhatzim]

Wow great info everyone. Thanks for history lesson! My memory of the System 7 days is a bit fuzzy at times. Back then I was of the age the students you were helping recover their work (probably) from failed floppy disks. I remember in the academic settings where there were many student workstations, then a teachers station that sort of acted like a server, but I suppose not in the way I'm thinking of. 

I have heard of and used NetPresenz, albeit briefly on MacOS 9. I found it a bit clumsy, but it always worked. 

AtEase rings a bell but honestly I'd have to google it at this point. 

The first true Apple servers I saw in a production environment were the Xserve G4's. That was at the University of Michigan (dad worked there). I remember the server room was labeled "Siberia". Heh.  He administered a few Apple servers for small work-groups. Mostly backups and file sharing. That was pretty neat to see. Actually now that I think of it I remember back when he worked at Schlumberger he set up lots of AppleTalk networks, but that wasn't what I'd call an enterprise class setup. But my memory of those days is foggy at best. 

 

[beachycove]

A broader view of the history is here: http://basalgangster.macgui.com/RetroMacComputing/The_Long_View/Entries/2012/3/1_AppleTalk.html

You have to remember that networking standards were not fixed on TCP/IP in the early 90s, that the philosophy at HQ was to make computers easy to use, and that a major initiative that was unique in networking terms failed spectacularly, in PowerTalk. That set them back.

When you add in technologies like ARA and inter-application communication on remote machines, so that one box running one program calls on another box running a different program to do something, and then incorporates the result, you've got sizable commitments in evidence to interesting networking technologies.

But they missed the modern Internet by a mile, which is what this thread is all about.

 

[Elfen]

Things were getting better when Apple released "Multiple Users" and tied it to their AppleShare Server, this as towards the end of OS 8 (8.6 I think) and improved upon in OS 9. But within 3 years time, OSX came out and everybody did the switch over to OSX from there. Poorer schools did a combination of both OS8/9 machines and OSX.

 

[zimwhatzim]

A broader view of the history is here: http://basalgangster.macgui.com/RetroMacComputing/The_Long_View/Entries/2012/3/1_AppleTalk.html

You have to remember that networking standards were not fixed on TCP/IP in the early 90s, that the philosophy at HQ was to make computers easy to use, and that a major initiative that was unique in networking terms failed spectacularly, in PowerTalk. That set them back.

When you add in technologies like ARA and inter-application communication on remote machines, so that one box running one program calls on another box running a different program to do something, and then incorporates the result, you've got sizable commitments in evidence to interesting networking technologies.

But they missed the modern Internet by a mile, which is what this thread is all about.

Thanks for the link, I'll give it a read. I've been wanting to learn more about AppleTalk networks of the day. I picked up a NOS book on eBay awhile back, "Troubleshooting AppleTalk Networks". It's actually pretty thick...

I recall setting up simple networks to play Marathon with a friend, or running an application from another computer in the house. That was neat. 

I knew that TCP/IP wasn't the standard back then, all my knowledge is on that of course, but what else was there? I have a few names floating around but I'm not sure (without good old google of course ) if they apply. Token Ring is one of them. 

They did miss the modern concept, I agree with that. Their concept was a much narrower and simple focus, I suppose I'd phrase it that way

 

[zimwhatzim]

Things were getting better when Apple released "Multiple Users" and tied it to their AppleShare Server, this as towards the end of OS 8 (8.6 I think) and improved upon in OS 9. But within 3 years time, OSX came out and everybody did the switch over to OSX from there. Poorer schools did a combination of both OS8/9 machines and OSX.

 I remember when we first started using multiple users. That was a big deal. You could log in as yourself and it would mount a personal network drive. Neat. 

When I first started going to college back in 2005 (do you feel old yet? I do, oh that's just the kids...) I found a random B&W G3 running OS 9 in the corner of my basic web design course. I insisted on using it, the instructor was not amused.  :b&w:

 

[Elfen]

Feeling old at 2005? I was feeling old at 1976 when some kid tugged on the side of my Speedo bathing suit and saying, "Hey mister! That guy over there is bothering me and my sister!" It was my first summer I was a teenaged lifeguard at the local pool at the time, I was 13! Being called Mister at 13! I felt old ever since then!!!

I was hacking school networks that I help build since the mid 80s as part of my job on my first laptop - a Duo 210. I was working with computers since 1978, but a lot of these "Comp Science Grads" thought they were the creme of the crop, but I put them in their place often. Oh some of the meetings the School districts had about somebody hacking their networks! Classroom were not (yet) networked but many of the administrative systems were to the main System system was where student records were kept. "ATS" ("Automated Tracking of Student/Services") was the system they were using and I met up with its creator; it was a mainframe in the main Bd of Ed building and every school was tied to it. It was also flawed in its security on many levels. Like in the movie War Games, with a little social engineering, you can get the password and login and then get in at night. During the day the data was compiled and ATS was automated so that at night computers would dial in and upload their compiled information to ATS. Because the ATS was expecting school computers to log in at night, somebody who got a school's log in info could also log in at night too. All this was done through a TelNet/dial up connection. For record keeping, ATS was... eh... great... for its time. But to sucked crusty toenails as far as security was involved.

Books like PISM (Providing Internet Service via the Mac OS) and WebMaster Macintosh (How to build your own World Wide Web Server Without Really Trying) are God Send Material on Macintosh Networking Services. The third party software stated adds onto what the Mac can (or in many cases- can not) do. If you can find them, especially PISM, Get Them!

 

[zimwhatzim]

Actually just found and bought WebMaster Macintosh on eBay for $4.

 

[Elfen]

With the CD?

The software is listed inside, so you could go hunt them down online if you want.

 

[zimwhatzim]

With the CD?

The software is listed inside, so you could go hunt them down online if you want.

The listing claims it comes with the software