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PowerBook 3400c CF Issues

P

pan1k

6502
Howdy .. 

Been quite some time since I had a classic mac this old. Got a great deal on two PowerBook 3400c's, one is a 200mhz and one is a 240mhz with the full 144MB RAM upgrade. Anyhow, I wanted to do the compact flash hard drive replacement, read up on it. 

I got it to boot from the compact flash on the internal IDE bus. Wow, it's quiet and fast. Something though, keeps corrupting the partitions. I had a heck of a time with the large 4 gig partition, so I made two 2 gig partitions, which seemed to go well. I transferred some programs to install over the web to the second partition, it threw out an error and when I rebooted, that partition is gone. 

Now I am having issues with the system partition not booting. So, my question is, what's the best way to partition these drives? I have a 4GB CF card. I tried with Disk Utility on a PowerBook 3400 CD, a Mac OS 7.6.1 CD. Is there a certain driver I should be using? I got it to boot off the System 7.6.1 CD, but the partition with the system folder is gone! I get a happy mac on startup and then it goes to the ?. How large of a partition should I have under 7.6.1?

 
Update: It looks like I was dealing with a faulty power supply. The seller included two, one is the smaller 45 watt. I just reinstalled 7.6.1 and it was booting fine. I installed some apps off of the PB 3400c CDROM, and when it rebooted, it booted off the CDROM. When I took out the CDROM, it was fussy until I selected the internal CF card as the startup disk. I'm thinking I need to replace the PRAM battery as well.

 
Glad to hear you got it working!

Are you just using a standard CF to 44 Pin IDE adapter?

Like this one:

s-l500.jpg.e39e3d2963ceb159ea119c83626d9dff.jpg


Also, which speed is your CF card?

When I overclocked my Libretto 110CT and added a CF card, I put one of those Sandisk Ultra Pro 32GB cards in there, I was looking at around ~120MB/s. Pretty crazy for IDE.

Just to put that into perspective, that's more than a few multiples of times the performance of the original Maxtor Drives of the late 90's, proabably more like ~20-30x the Quantum Fireballs (Not fair lol).

When I was looking originally, I was thinking about using an M-Sata to IDE adapter, as the prices tend to be quadratic when you go for higher storage capacities above ~32GB on CF cards. Still limited to IDE controller, but the Access Latency is still a lot shorter vs a modern 2.5" HDD. If you're going less than 64GB the M-Sata SSD's tend to be more expensive than the CF equivalent. 

 
Are you using Sherlock to index your drive's files? Sherlock up to 2.0 seems to have a bug in it that corrupts your file system, mostly on OS9 but I heard it also corrupts other systems as well.

Here it the basics for OS9...

https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/23121-os-9-corruption-after-indexing-volume-with-sherlock-2/?hl=sherlock

CF is a great option for a SSD Hard Drive option. There are a few things to look out for but they should be minor to deal with. I have several Macs and PCs on C when their hard drives died.

 
It's not working after a reboot. I'm using the SYBA. My card is UDMA 133x 4GB by Trancend. I get the Happy Mac and it just sits there. I tried clearing PRAM, nothing. Try to boot off CD, it just spits it out (Apple 7.6.1 CDROM) I'm using system 7.6.1 so no Sherlock for me. I'm quite puzzled. When it's working, it's nice. Do you guys think it's CF card related or PRAM? Am I right by keeping the partitions at about 2GB?

 
SD-CF-IDE-A.main-240x240.jpg.c1097679bd1baabf13dd6f5f6c38a223.jpg


 
Where did you format the CF on? OS8 machine? System7? OSX? And how big is that CF? (OK I reread your posts and see the details.) There is a HD Setup that has been hacked for any SCSI Drive. If you can get it, use it. Other HD Formatters include LILO and Anubis and  Tech HD (? on the name). As a last resort, I would partition and format the drive into 4 slices - 500MB for the System, 1.5GB for apps, 1.5GB for your data, and 500MB for a back up of sorts.

Qs:

Does your adapter require external power or does it light up as it should when you plug in the HD Connector?

Have you tested it by running it with the casing open? Sometimes things tend to go bad when the case is closed but fine when the case is open - meaning that the adapter is shorting against something when the case is closed.

Is the IDE Selector set to Master or Cable Select? *Sometimes it works on one and not the other.

How is the adapter supported inside? Is it contacting with metal when you close the case? For me I either secure it with thick double sided tape or wrap the adapter in paper so it is insulated from making contact with the metal of the Powerbook Frame.

I've seen others complain about that SYBA adapter, basically saying the same thing - it works and then it stops. I've been using the one ASaggyNoodle posted since 2002 in both Desktop and Laptop flavors. The problem with them (and all CF Adapters on Macs) is that the ones that allow 2 CFs for 2 drives do not work on Macs. They never did. You need to get the Single CF Units, they work great on Mac desktops and laptops. And they are cheap - under $5 on ebay; you might get one for $3 and no shipping!

It is not that the SYBA adapter is bad, from what I hear they work great on PCs! But Macs tend to be finicky about what you "feed them". Long ago I found that those cheap no-thrills CF-to-IDE Adapters from China works great on Macs.

Here is my links on the subject on a 1400...

https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/23406-booting-from-a-compact-flash-drive/page-2&do=findComment&comment=244695

You should also get a CF-to-PCMCIA adapter, they too are under $5 on ebay. Put the CF into the adapter and see if it will boot on the PCMCIA with no modification to the CF or the System inside. If it does, then the CF set up you is fine and you just need another CF-to-IDE Adapter. If it does not boot, you need to partition, format and install the System on the CF through the PCMCIA. You treat it like a regular hard drive, and when it boots from the PCMCIA, then you can transfer the CF to the IDE Adapter and boot from it from there.

 
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asaggynoodle said:
s-l500.jpg.e39e3d2963ceb159ea119c83626d9dff.jpg


Also, which speed is your CF card?

When I overclocked my Libretto 110CT and added a CF card, I put one of those Sandisk Ultra Pro 32GB cards in there, I was looking at around ~120MB/s. Pretty crazy for IDE.

Just to put that into perspective, that's more than a few multiples of times the performance of the original Maxtor Drives of the late 90's, proabably more like ~20-30x the Quantum Fireballs (Not fair lol).
Click to expand...
Anything from a G3 Snow/White down to the 1400 uses ATA-33 (or slower) IDE/ATA interface, which is about 15MB/Sec. A 200X CF that is about 33MB/sec. is fine on these systems. You are not getting anything speed improvement if you put in a faster CF Card because the interface limits the speed of the data's bandwidth.

To have the speed of the CF Equal to the speed of a Hard Drive, you need to use a 65X - 75X speed CF! This is funny because at those speeds the CF is about 10 - 12 MB/sec while the drive is 15MB/sec but the CF is faster. The answer is simple - nothing mechanical and no buffering to cause latencies in the CF over the HD. Thus a 100X CF which is 15MB/sec equal to hard drive is faster than the hard drive - LOL!!!

 
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Elfen said:
Anything from a G3 Snow/White down to the 1400 uses ATA-33 (or slower) IDE/ATA interface, which is about 15MB/Sec. A 200X CF that is about 33MB/sec. is fine on these systems. You are not getting anything speed improvement if you put in a faster CF Card because the interface limits the speed of the data's bandwidth.

To have the speed of the CF Equal to the speed of a Hard Drive, you need to use a 65X - 75X speed CF! This is funny because at those speeds the CF is about 10 - 12 MB/sec while the drive is 15MB/sec but the CF is faster. The answer is simple - nothing mechanical and no buffering to cause latencies in the CF over the HD. Thus a 100X CF which is 15MB/sec equal to hard drive is faster than the hard drive - LOL!!!
Click to expand...
Ah! Sorry I missed this reply.

I finally found out the one I had used, It's a "Sandisk Extreme Pro", the price's are a lot cheaper than I payed for it (about half), but that's probably due to SSD's becoming so cheap as well.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1000362-REG/sandisk_sdcfxps_032g_a46_32gb_extreme_pro_compact.html

1408485916000_1000362.jpg.518b54836e940868526d1c2a045c9e88.jpg


(Can be found cheaper elsewhere, but this page has good Tech Specs)

According to that page, that card is rated at 1000-1067x speeds, which ends up being about the theoretical same speed as the EDO RAM Modules in these machines.. Lol.

Enhanced continuous shot-to-shot performance with up to 150 MB/s (1000x) data transfer speed Enhanced transfer speed to move data from the card to computer at up to 160 MB/s (1067x)  
Click to expand...
 
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I love SanDisk CFs. They did invent the technology back in the 1990s. But Transcend, Keningston, TopRAM and a few others I know and use are great too.

But this whole Speed Issue is fun to play with but moot. They fastest they will go is as fast as the system they are connected allows it. For example - on the PowerBook 190 (a 68040 PB with IDE and PCMCIA).

It has a standard IDE/ATA Interface that is at its top speed is 33MB/Sec.

It has a standard PCMCIA Interface that is at its top speed is 30MB/Sec.

In this case the IDE/ATA will beat out the PCMCIA by a tiny margin when you compare boot and access times from either one.

Now, lets take its PowerPC Cousin the 5300 which has a Databus speed of 100MHz.

It has a standard IDE/ATA Interface that is at its top speed is 33MB/Sec.

It has a standard PCMCIA Interface that is at its top speed is 100MB/Sec.

In this case, the PCMCIA will beat the pants off the IDE/ATA when you compare boot and access times from either one.

Funny - because of this - the 5300cs with a data bus speed of 117MB/sec will beat anything up to a 3400 when booting from the PCMCIA. So the 1400, 2400, and others in between the two that has 100MB/sec data bus speeds will be beaten by this lowly 5300ce! The 3400 has a 133MB/sec data bus speed. The 5300ce is such an oddball machine. (and I love my 5300ce!)

It is only when you are using the PCMCIA on the Mac will the X-Speed on the CF matters because PCMCiA is only as fast as the CPU's Data Bus. But using the IDE bus on the Mac (and PCs too) it won't because of limits on the IDE Interface.

 
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Dont forget, you need to align the partitions on t he 1024 boundary, or the write speeds will take much longer, and sometimes causes corruption if the CF controller doesnt have built in wear-leveling. Some do, some dont. 

 
techknight said:
Dont forget, you need to align the partitions on t he 1024 boundary, or the write speeds will take much longer, and sometimes causes corruption if the CF controller doesnt have built in wear-leveling. Some do, some dont. 
Click to expand...
Explique-moi, svp! It's an important observation but I have no idea how I'd do that.

 
You have to use newer utilities designed for solid state memories. And chose HFS for a partition. I think the newer partition magics can do it. 

Also there is a free utility that I use that will take an existing partition no matter what it is, and re-align it on its own as long as there is some freespace. I think its AOMEI or something along those lines. 

Otherwise if its not aligned, your going to have consistent corruption issues. As much as I love solid-state memory as disk drives, They arnt really friendly with older file systems. Some SSD utilities can handle older filesystems, and some cannot. 

Ultimately I ended up going with microdrives for CF cards on systems that are critical like my CNC machine at the shop, which defeats the purpose of SSD/CF, but they are still plentiful!

Also if your using CF cards with built-in wear leveling, Dont partition the whole card... Partition only 75% of it, so that leaves free-space for the controller to use that area for sector wear leveling. 

I did stumble across this which is very interesting: 

http://www.hjreggel.net/cardspeed/index.html#cs_calign.html

 
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Though this is not an issue for older 68K and Pre-G3 systems, many CF to IDE adapters do not support DMA/UDMA even though the CF card has it.

The reason is because the adapter is missing two tiny wires, which connects to the CF Card for DMA/UDMA support. The Older 68K and Pre-G3 PowerPC does not have DMA/UDMA so this point is moot with them, and their databadwidth is somewhere between 15 - 33MB/sec.

But on G3, G4 and those Intels that has PATA interface do, and they can support speeds up to 133MB/sec (depending on the system; the first G3s were between 33 - 66 MB/sec). But without these wires connecting the the DMA/UDMA support, the bandwidth drops to about 15 - 33 MB/sec.

Fortunately, it's a simple hardware hack to add DMA/UDMA support to the card by adding 2 wires.

See: http://e-shop.fccps.cz/download/adv/frr/cf.html

Now, some Ebay sellers claim to have CF-to-IDE Readers with DMA/UDMA support. But these cards cost a lot more (about $5 to $10), while a typical card without it is about $1 to $5. Personally I only tried 1 of those higher priced cards and there is a significant improvement. But at the same time, the hack on the cheap card works just a well. For me it is better to get the cheaper card and solder the two little wires than it is to spend more money on the more expensive card. I can buy more cheap cards for the same price of a few expensive cards and then just put in the two wires myself.

But note - this only works for the G3/G4/intel Macs with IDE/PATA. This does not work for older 68K/Pre-G3 PowerPC Macs as they do not have DMA/UDMA support. Using the expensive or hacked card on the older machines does nothing, you will still have access to the CF as a hard drive but there is no improvement in speed.

 
As an update to this thread, I had some issues selecting the correct IDE to CF adapter and compact flash card to get this working on my PowerBook 1400.  After much trial and error I got it to work.  Documented the exact configuration I used on my site so it's easy for others to find.  The big take away point is to use an **industrial** compact flash card.  I didn't have luck with others.

IDE to CF Adapter: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EQVTYO2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

CF Card: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014H4GQJS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Full Post - https://www.marmanold.com/retro/booting-a-powerbook-1400-from-compact-flash/

 
Interesting. I've thought about using the Industrial cards, but the plain ones have been working fine in my PB190cs.
Generally do recommend sticking with Sandisk, Transcend and Kingston have both died on me far more quickly than they should. Hopefully the Transcend industrial is a bit more stable.

 
marmanold said:
As an update to this thread, I had some issues selecting the correct IDE to CF adapter and compact flash card to get this working on my PowerBook 1400.  After much trial and error I got it to work.  Documented the exact configuration I used on my site so it's easy for others to find.  The big take away point is to use an **industrial** compact flash card.  I didn't have luck with others.

IDE to CF Adapter: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EQVTYO2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

CF Card: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014H4GQJS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Full Post - https://www.marmanold.com/retro/booting-a-powerbook-1400-from-compact-flash/
Click to expand...
These adapters are out of stock. Anyone know of another source?

 
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