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First boot of a new IIgs - help!
- Thread starter bigmessowires
- Start date
Ok, hold it right there... how does your disk drive connect to your Disk II controller? Via a 19-pin D-shell, or is it the 20-pin IDC connector? (In a related quesiton... does your 2.0.3 still boot on any other known-good Apple II computer?)
It's an unenhanced IIe - says "Apple ][" at power-up. It actually has both a Disk II controller (in slot 3, with two 20-pin connectors) and a 5.25 controller (in slot 6, with the 19-pin D-SUB). I removed the Disk II controller card, and also re-seated the 19-pin cable from the drive, which might have been a little bit loose before. Now it boots OK from the disk, except it shows a ProDOS banner and "Requires IIe enhanced or later". Rats. So I'll either need to find an earlier version of ProDOS on an 800K disk image, so I can use the IIgs to make a 5.25 disk of the older ProDOS, or use ADTPro directly on the IIe to create an older ProDOS or DOS 3.3 disk.
Right, ADTPro bootstraps and ships on ProDOS 1.9 for this very reason.
I've run into a snag with ADTPro. Using the audio out from my PC, I was able to successfully bootstrap the IIe and load the ADTPro client. But to actually transfer any disk images with ADTPro, it requires two-way communication using the PC's headphone out and microphone in, and I can't get that to work.
The input level on the PC's mic input seems too low for the ADTPro server to hear it. I know it's connected OK, because I can hear it beeping when I enable "listen" mode on the PC and play it through the PC speakers, but it's a fairly quiet beeping that shows as 0 out of 10 in the level meter in the sound recording control panel. This seems to be a common problem, and the ADT instructions recommend using Mic Boost or similar OS settings to fix it. But I've set the input level to 100% and I still get no joy. The PC identifies the input as "line in" as opposed to "microphone", so maybe that's part of the problem.
I have a bunch of different computers in the house, but amazingly only one of them has a sound input jack. Unless I can think of some other way to boost the input signal, it looks like ADTPro audio transfers won't be possible for the IIe. The IIe doesn't have a serial card either, so it might be totally out of luck.
That brings me back to using the IIgs with ADTPro, so I can make disks for both the IIgs and the IIe. The IIgs doesn't have audio in, so the only option there is a serial cable. I have the parts needed to build a custom DB-9 to Mini-DIN-8 serial cable, but I've been putting it off, because it would require reusing my USB-to-DB9 adapter and dismantling a custom wiring job I did for the Lisa serial port. And I actually still need the Lisa serial connection, until I'm completely done testing Floppy Emu with Lisa firmware.
So... there are solutions to all these problems, but none of them seem as easy as I'd first hoped, so I'm going to stop and think it through again. I really would like to get ADTPro working on the IIe, but I don't see any way to do that without building some kind of amplifier for the microphone signal, or finding a way on the PC to boost the input levels further than I've managed to already.
The input level on the PC's mic input seems too low for the ADTPro server to hear it. I know it's connected OK, because I can hear it beeping when I enable "listen" mode on the PC and play it through the PC speakers, but it's a fairly quiet beeping that shows as 0 out of 10 in the level meter in the sound recording control panel. This seems to be a common problem, and the ADT instructions recommend using Mic Boost or similar OS settings to fix it. But I've set the input level to 100% and I still get no joy. The PC identifies the input as "line in" as opposed to "microphone", so maybe that's part of the problem.
I have a bunch of different computers in the house, but amazingly only one of them has a sound input jack. Unless I can think of some other way to boost the input signal, it looks like ADTPro audio transfers won't be possible for the IIe. The IIe doesn't have a serial card either, so it might be totally out of luck.
That brings me back to using the IIgs with ADTPro, so I can make disks for both the IIgs and the IIe. The IIgs doesn't have audio in, so the only option there is a serial cable. I have the parts needed to build a custom DB-9 to Mini-DIN-8 serial cable, but I've been putting it off, because it would require reusing my USB-to-DB9 adapter and dismantling a custom wiring job I did for the Lisa serial port. And I actually still need the Lisa serial connection, until I'm completely done testing Floppy Emu with Lisa firmware.
So... there are solutions to all these problems, but none of them seem as easy as I'd first hoped, so I'm going to stop and think it through again. I really would like to get ADTPro working on the IIe, but I don't see any way to do that without building some kind of amplifier for the microphone signal, or finding a way on the PC to boost the input levels further than I've managed to already.
You do have a case of "you can't get there from here," don't you? 
You will be unhappy with audio even if/when you get it working. Yes, it's a line-in vs. mic amplification issue. But it's slow; painfully slow. You want to set your sights on serial. Wire up a cable, grab a cheap USB-RS232 dongle (you can get away with a crappy Prolific adapter on a PC; less so on a Mac, due to device driver differences) and go that route. This is better than spending $20+ on a super serial card for your IIe. But you don't want to go audio.
You will be unhappy with audio even if/when you get it working. Yes, it's a line-in vs. mic amplification issue. But it's slow; painfully slow. You want to set your sights on serial. Wire up a cable, grab a cheap USB-RS232 dongle (you can get away with a crappy Prolific adapter on a PC; less so on a Mac, due to device driver differences) and go that route. This is better than spending $20+ on a super serial card for your IIe. But you don't want to go audio.
Ah, I guess you're right about audio. But won't I need the SSC anyway, unless I continue using the IIgs as a go-between disk making station for the IIe?
Medium to longer term, I'd like to pack away the IIgs, but the IIe will probably stay on my desk. For whatever reason, I find that the IIe really hits my retrocomputing nerve, in the same way as the old compact Macs. The IIgs and the Mac II and later Macs just aren't as interesting to me, despite their usefulness. And the poor Lisa doesn't do anything for me - interesting in a historical perspective, but not very enjoyable to use, and it takes up my entire desk. If I can eventually whittle things down to a single IIe and Mac 512K on my desk, I think that'll be just about perfect.
Yes, you're right. You would still need the GS as the go-between since it has the built-in serial communications. But at least you can get away with (for now) just hand-wiring up your MiniDIN-8 cable and a cheapie USB-RS232 adapter... I think that's your minimal cash path. But to really do it right, you want an SSC for the IIe. I use an accelerated GS for ADTPro testing and imaging tasks, and it's an able workhorse. But I agree, there's no nostalgic value in it for me. I need a II+ for that.
It's an evil thing to suggest, but does your IIgs' motherboard have the header soldered for a IIe keyboard? Since your IIe is already damaged you could use that as the excuse to cut holes for the IIgs motherboard's ports in the baseplate and turn it into a stealth-upgrade hybrid. It'd basically give you the equivalent of an enhanced IIe upgraded with an SSC, a 2.8mhz accelerator, a 3.5-inch capable controller, and some extra RAM.
(GS motherboards with the IIe connector are somewhat rare, unfortunately. One of the two "Woz Edition" machines I have has the connector, but unfortunately it's the one with the bad keyboard controller; it's damaged in such a way that it breaks both the header and the ADB port.)
Loaning/borrowing stuff is always a hassle but I'll toss this out there: if you're really hating your current data transfer solutions I could probably loan you my AppleTalk bridge for the time you're working on this disk emulation problem; I believe A2SERVER is available in a pre-built VM if you don't have a dedicated box you can slap Linux on. I could also loan you my "bad" RAM card; chances are it doesn't have more than one bad IC on it so it could probably be easily fixed with a chip pulled from the one you have; that would let you run GS OS over the network. Just give me a discount on a Floppy EMU once you have the Apple II support working and we'd be even.
(GS motherboards with the IIe connector are somewhat rare, unfortunately. One of the two "Woz Edition" machines I have has the connector, but unfortunately it's the one with the bad keyboard controller; it's damaged in such a way that it breaks both the header and the ADB port.)
Loaning/borrowing stuff is always a hassle but I'll toss this out there: if you're really hating your current data transfer solutions I could probably loan you my AppleTalk bridge for the time you're working on this disk emulation problem; I believe A2SERVER is available in a pre-built VM if you don't have a dedicated box you can slap Linux on. I could also loan you my "bad" RAM card; chances are it doesn't have more than one bad IC on it so it could probably be easily fixed with a chip pulled from the one you have; that would let you run GS OS over the network. Just give me a discount on a Floppy EMU once you have the Apple II support working and we'd be even.
Thanks for the offer! I think I won't need it, though: after much fussing and fiddling, I finally have a working IIgs serial cable for ADTPro *and* a working Lisa serial cable for capturing BLU logs. I made two different cable halves that can be alternately plugged into my USB-to-DB9 serial port on the PC. Of course, shortly before finishing I discovered I could have bought ready-made cables for both purposes at http://retrofloppy.com/products.html
I'd rather not Frankenstein the Apple II's, but it's an interesting thought. I didn't know you could connect an IIe keyboard to a GS logic board, but I guess it must be possible since there was a GS upgrade available at one time.
So.... where were we? I think I need to go play some Choplifter.
I'd rather not Frankenstein the Apple II's, but it's an interesting thought. I didn't know you could connect an IIe keyboard to a GS logic board, but I guess it must be possible since there was a GS upgrade available at one time.
So.... where were we? I think I need to go play some Choplifter.
Hmm, that USB sound card sure is cheap! I have no idea how they can make any money selling stuff like that for $3.
I just noticed that Apple ][ Disk Server does something very similar to ADTPro, transferring disk images via the audio/cassette port, but it doesn't require any microphone input. It's purely a one-way communication channel, from the PC's headphone output to the Apple II's cassette input. http://asciiexpress.net/diskserver
Why doesn't ADTPro work this way? I can understand it's probably less reliable then two-way communication, but it would be super helpful as a fallback for all the people like me who can't get the mic input to work well enough for ADTPro.
I just noticed that Apple ][ Disk Server does something very similar to ADTPro, transferring disk images via the audio/cassette port, but it doesn't require any microphone input. It's purely a one-way communication channel, from the PC's headphone output to the Apple II's cassette input. http://asciiexpress.net/diskserver
Why doesn't ADTPro work this way? I can understand it's probably less reliable then two-way communication, but it would be super helpful as a fallback for all the people like me who can't get the mic input to work well enough for ADTPro.
Because ADTPro is intended to work both ways... both creating and extracting disks. Not just playing games.
I've been carrying around one of those in my computer bag for years (found it free in a junk pile and it does work)... have you actually tried using one with ADTPro and had better luck than the built-in sound hardware? I ask because while I haven't actually had the need for ADTPro yet (I wish I did; I'd totally trade my IIgs for a ][plus...) I was some time ago attempting to transfer software to a TRS-80 Color Computer via the cassette ports and had what appeared to be a similar problem with inadequate input/output levels. (This was on a... 2011?, MacBook Pro.)
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