Compact Flash in se/30

[JDW]

My guess is that CF is going to get poor WRITE speeds (i.e., less than any old 7200rpm drive you can find for an SE/30). From what I've read, SSD's seem to have WRITE performance optimized. You can see that in the bar graph at the bottom of this ExperCOM page. They claim Random WRITE speeds that are faster than a SATA drive at 5400rpm. Even so, who uses a 5400rpm drive now except financially poor notebook users? No doubt the WRITE performance of even this SSD is noticeably less than a 7200rpm drive, which most of us are accustomed to. And the Sequential WRITE performance is bad on this SSD, which makes me think a CF would be even worse.

But again, we need to compare benchmarks of CFs versus SSDs. When is that realistically going to happen? When a rich man among us either performs those tests himself or when he submits a sample of each product to someone on this site. Sorry to be pessimistic, but I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

I would love to do the tests, folks, but I am not a rich man. If someone wants to ship me something to test though, then that's a different matter altogether (and yes, I would ship the units back to you after I am done). But I would need to have all the required adapters in that case, as my SE/30 is setup only for 50-pin SCSI connections at the moment.

 

[fogwalker]

I appreciate both of your input, TylerEss and JDW.

While JDW notes the slower write performance of flash memory versus HDDs (and that a CF card implementation is likely to be slightly slower yet than an SSD), nonetheless I don't expect my usage to involve significant write activity, so this seems to be an acceptable tradeoff given the other advantages of flash memory. Looking at online articles on replacing HDDs with CF cards or SSDs, it seems that the difference is most noticeable with sustained writes, and I don't anticipate doing large file transfers and the like.

For RAID mirroring software, TylerEss mentioned Remus. I have access to v1.4 (full, not Lite; floppy disk) as well as FWB Hard Disk Toolkit 3.0 (CD) but have used neither. Any opinions as to which is preferable?

I'm a newbie to CF cards, and in my reading noticed that those supporting UDMA are recommeded in cases of HDD replacement. Is this or any other specification necessary with a vintage Mac? Anything one needs to look for?

Here are two possibilities:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211170

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820208337

Tyler, is there anything special about that Acard chip that you're considering that might make it worthwhile to hold out in case your potential adapter production is feasible?

Finally, I'm hopeful for any reaction to these questions:

Is there any advantage to one adapter choice over the other (SCSI-CF or SCSI-IDE + IDE-CF combination)?

On a vintage Mac, would industrial grade adapters provide noticeably better performance than consumer-level versions?

 

[TylerEss]

The ACARD chip is just the SCSI-IDE chip that their adaptors are based upon. In the best possible case it'd be six months to a year before I had adaptors, so don't plan anything on them happening. :-D

If you want to do RAID on the SE/30, I don't think you have any choice but Remus; when I was looking into SE/30 RAID it was the only package I could find that didn't require SCSI Manager 4.3 support.

I would try to get CF cards that support UDMA just because I feel better about them, but chances are that it doesn't really matter all that much. If you get a PIO-only CF card, you'll be putting a lot of system load onto the SCSIDE chipset during disk activity. Since we don't actually have a native IDE controller, that system load from PIO isn't affecting the Mac's CPU at all. Then when you consider that the SCSIDE's embedded microcontroller is more powerful than our CPU, it seems inconsequential. I'd still get the UDMA CF cards just because I think the quality is a little higher.

Re: write speed of CF cards vs. SSD: The fastest CF cards you can get these days, 266x models, do UDMA at 40+ MB per second sustained on both read and write. Even the slowest DMA-supporting CF cards do upwards of 10MB/s read and write. Since the SCSI bus in the SE/30 maxes out at 1.25MB/s, any sustained-speed differences between drives are very unlikely to be noticed, in my opinion.

As you keep saying, JDW, what we need is tested facts! We have lots of really smart opinions, but they don't mean much compared to one real fact. :-D

 

[fogwalker]

Thank you TylerEss for this very informative and helpful post.

In addition to Remus 1.4, FWB HDT 3.0 also supports RAID, as their RAID Toolkit was merged with HDT beginning with that version:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Excellent+Review+of+Hard+Disk+ToolKit+3.0+in+April+Issue+of+MacAddict...-a054230665

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-53937232.html (this link refers to 3.01)

It requires System 7.5.3 and an 030 CPU.

I'm just wondering if anyone prefers one over the other (Remus or HDT), and if so, why. There isn't much substantive information about them on the Internet, especially regarding Remus.

Lastly, I'll try once more to solicit input on the following uncertainties, after which I suppose I'll have to assume that none is forthcoming:

Register's post above suggests that industrial grade CF adapters would provide better performance than consumer-level versions, which I'm sure is correct in an absolute sense, though I wonder whether this would be noticeable on the SE/30's 1.25MB/second bus. Any opinions, or is this another item to be filed under "testing required"?

Is there any advantage to one adapter choice over the other: SCSI-CF or a SCSI-IDE + IDE-CF combination? My thinking is that if I ever wanted to change over to 2.5-inch IDE HDDs instead of CF cards, the latter option would allow for that. However, might there be any downside other than the added cost of IDE-CF adapters?

 

[TylerEss]

Again, HDT 3.0 RAID isn't available on the SE/30 because it has a 53c80 SCSI controller instead of a 53c96. For this same reason, SoftRAID doesn't work on the SE/30 either. They both require SCSI Manager 4.3.

Does anyone know of any RAID software besides Remus that is known to work on the SE/30?

 

[JDW]

Is Remus compatible with System 6? I ask this because I for one have a SE/30 for the purpose of running multiple operating systems, included the wicked fast System 6. No doubt, I am not alone. So before putting a Remus raid on that SE/30, you may wish to check System compatibility

 

[TylerEss]

Ooooh. I never thought of doing RAID in System 6. That sounds awesome!

 

[fogwalker]

Certainly TylerEss is more expert than I am on these matters (which I've appreciated and have benefitted from), but allow me to explain why I conclude that FWB HDT 3.0 would support RAID on an SE/30:

1) My understanding is that no 68030 Macs included the NCR 53C96 SCSI controller and thus none support SCSI Manager 4.3. Only Centris, Quadra, and Power Mac models meet these requirements.

2) Some of FWB's products specify an 040 or later CPU under system requirements as a proxy for the above (e.g., RAID Toolkit 2.0, IIRC). Since it's not the minimum CPU itself that's necessary, adding a Turbo 040 won't do. The logic board must have an onboard 040 in such cases, and thus would also necessarily include the required SCSI controller.

3) Neither the HDT 3.0 retail box nor paper manual specify an 040 or later CPU, nor is any mention made of SCSI Manager 4.3. The only hardware requirement listed in the booklet other than RAM, a storage device, and a CD-ROM drive (for installation) is "any model of Macintosh/Power Macintosh with at least a 68030 procesor" (emphasis added). The RAID pages do not make any mention of additional requirements based on my initial reading.

Am I missing something else?

Regarding Remus, I can only comment on v1.4, which according to the retail box requires a 68020 CPU or above (or PowerPC), 4MB RAM, and System 7 or higher. I do not know whether earlier versions support RAID in System 6. The idea of running multiple operating systems on the same machine sounds nice, though I wonder if RAID would somehow interfere with this possibility (?).

Interestingly, HDT 3.0 allows mirroring of an exising volume, whereas Remus 1.4 does not. On the other hand, while HDT 3.0 supports RAID levels 0, 1, and spanning, Remus in addition supports levels 4 and 5 (but I'm only interested in mirroring).

Again, I'm just wondering if anyone prefers one over the other (Remus or HDT), and if so, why.

No opinions on my other questions regarding adapters (end of my previous post)?

 

[trag]

Don't forget about RAID Tool Kit. It's functionality was folded into HDTK 3.0, but there were versions of RTK which predated HDTK 3.0 by a long while, and may work with older software and hardware which HDTK 3.0 eschews.

However, I don't see the point of using a RAID on an SE/30 except to get mirroring. I can't see where there'd be any performance improvement from striping, given the relative speeds of the SE/30s SCSI bus and any half-way-not-obsolete storage device.

Has the discussion above been in support of mirroring? It's not clear to me.

Tyler, I don't know what your price point goal is for the Acard chips, but there's an outfit on Ebay which has hundreds of used 7220Us for $30. It might be as easier to use those, especially if they would give you a volume discount. However, they don't include the power adapter cable, and their shipping is rather steep, so, for anyone just buying one or two adapters, you're better off buying mine for $39 plus shipping.

 

[fogwalker]

Yes, the RAID discussion has primarily involved mirroring.

Trag, would you provide more information about your adapters? Specifically, I'd like to know the following:

1) Do they have pin headers for the HDD activity light?

2) Onboard termination?

3) SCSI ID setting (presumably via jumpers)?

4) Are they SCSI-CF or SCSI-IDE?

5) Is the size 2.5 or 3.5-inch? The former makes it easier to install a pair in the same machine for mirroring.

 

[trag]

Trag, would you provide more information about your adapters?

Info in PM, because this isn't the Trading Post forum. However, I do have postings for the 7220U in TP if you go back a ways. None of the info has changed.

 

[Bunsen]

While doing a little research on CF and Microdrives myself, I came upon this little snippet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microdrive#CF_hard_drive_models_by_manufacturer

Seagate ST1
* 2.5 gigabyte - 8 gigabyte

These Seagate models are fitted with 2 MB of cache memory

Seconds later, I discovered they were dirt cheap on ebay, so I bought a 4 GB one for $20 inc shipping. [] ]'>

Question: does anyone know if on-disk cache is used bidirectionally, on writes as well as reads?

/edit/ here's a review - when they were $300.

/edit/ The Microdrive arrived; conquest thread

 

[trag]

Following the link to the review you mentioned, I found that Compuvest has the 5 GB version for $15.99 + shipping. That's probably not as handy for you, being in Australia, but for any interested North Americans it is probably the best thing going.

BTW, Compuvest also has the SIIG USB 2.0/Firewire/giga-enet card for $22, which is reputed to work well in Macs. One must download the RealTek 8169 drivers to get the ethernet working though. It is under their networking heading.

 

[ReactiveMicro.com]

Hey Guys.

Found this thread and it's along the lines of a project I have been researching - a SCSI CF Drive. Really an External SCSI PCMCIA Drive. Hope you guys are still watching it as I can use some feedback.

PCMCIA give the added benefit of using an Adapter for any Flash format available plus the addition of Ethernet/Wi-Fi. As some may already know an actual HDD option is also available for those who require longevity of their storage medium. How Ethernet/Wi-Fi would work I have no idea, but it is a possibility since those PCMCIA Card do exist.

I have three leads so far:

Build one: http://micha.freeshell.org/pcmcia_drive/index.php. A good way to go, but would require a bulk build to keep costs down.

Or buy them: http://search.ebay.com/spyrus (eBay - search for Spyrus) and also

http://www.adtron.com/pdf/S35P-20-spec100807.pdf

The eBay unit is selling for $100 plus shipping. I did a 'Make an Offer' and bought one for $80 USD.

The Adtron Dual Slot unit (so I'm told by the sales rep who is VERY flaky) is $140 plus shipping and lead time is 6 weeks. Seems too cheap to me since I was quoted $340 for the Signal Slot unit. They also don't keep stock and built-on-demand, hence the wait times. Even still, $140 (if that price really is correct) is about as cheap as I've found with all my research for new items. eBay is the best price I've found of course, but the units are used. Seems all new units are internal which of course would require an Enclosure with a Power Supply. All Enclosures I have found are 5.25" which then require a 3.5" Converter Bracket. Anyone know of a 3.5" Enclosure with a front access bezel that would work with a device like the SCSI PCMCIA Drive please let me know! I can't find any of course. Even a good lead on a cheap SCSI-1 or SCSI-2 Enclosure would be appreciated.

One last find was SCSIForSamplers.com. They have this: http://www.scsiforsamplers.com/all_products.asp?MCDISK $125 isn't that bad, but they only have 16 units left when I spoke to the owner last. Some buyout he did a few years back and it's the only stock he has left.

So let me ask how have the SCSI CF Drives been working out for everyone?

Any complaints/suggestions/wants/needs? All input is appreciated!

I'm looking to produce or find such a unit for the Apple II Community, but if it also happens to help the Mac Community all the better.

Feel free to contact me directly.

 

[JDW]

...an External SCSI PCMCIA Drive... I can use some feedback.

An INTERNAL drive would be preferred, I think. We could then use them inside SE/30s or inside external HD cases we already own, like the HD20SC housing. With an external flash drive, you have to worry about aesthetics. And while it may be possible to remove the guts from an external drive and use those guts as an internal drive mechanism, it is rather a waste for those of us who won't need the external housing.

Sorry, I've not tested other flash solutions for classic Macs in the past, so I cannot be helpful on that point. What I can say though is that it would be nice if the overall read AND write performance could at least match that of a 7200rpm SCSI drive (I fully understand the READs would be faster, but I'd also like to see wicked fast WRITEs as well). So even if the flash drive were only as fast as a normal 7200rpm spinning platter drive, you would still reap benefits from reduced heat and noise, making the flash drive a very appealing purchase for many classic Mac owners (if the price is right).

 

[ReactiveMicro.com]

Hello JDW.

Yes, I can see how Internal would be preferred by Mac users.

As far as speed it would really depend on the type of Flash used. San Disk has some type IV CF Cards that are very quick. Probably on par with the current HDDs if you want to spend the money. In that case you might as well purchase a MicroDrive HDD or a 'real' solid state SCSI HDD. All those options would be much more then a simple piece of Flash though.

Quick update on the Adtron Drive: The 'flaky' guy (Jack Carney of Eastern Sales) has returned my email saying 'We can do a credit card for 1 pc. However I'm a bit dyslexic today. The price for the dual slot is $410 ea. not $140 ea. I apologize.' Yeah... right. If he was one of my guys he'd be fired, so fired. I also can't seem to get him to call me. I heard a lot of good things about Adtron, but this guy's a joke.

I'm really sorry to see that option disappear. Oh well. I'll probably be designing my own Drive, so any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[JDW]

San Disk has some type IV CF Cards that are very quick. Probably on par with the current HDDs if you want to spend the money.

Prices come down over time, and such will drive down the cost of the IV cards sooner than we think. So money is not the issue here. I am mainly concerned that, in order to fully take advantage of all the speed those Extreme series cards offer, you would need "hardware support." So my question therefore is, can you make the hardware to take advantage of that speed? In other words, the SE/30 (or other compact Mac) would be able to take full advantage of the speed of the drive, limited only by the SCSI implementation in that given Mac, rather than being limited (in any way) by the flash hardware.

Simply put, I myself want a 100% silent, ultra-low power flash drive in about a 5GB or 8GB size, that will match or beat the speed of my current 7200rpm spinning platter hard disk. (Read speed is as important to me as write speed.) I also want it to be just as compatible with my software as any spinning platter HD would be.

If I can get that, at a reasonable cost (including the flash card), then consider me on the waiting list!

 

[register]

I have one Adtron single slot PCMCIA card reader in use in the lab. It works flawlessly, fast, silent, reliable. Pretty good stuff. Check our wiki pages Flash Drive Test Results and Using Flash Memory.

When purchasing the dual slot device, keep in mind that two cards in this may appear as one single drive in the scsi chain, as the device is designed to use two flash cards in striping mode for speed optimisation. The drive uses only one SCSI ID address, anyway.

The Adtron S35P has the footprint of a 3.5 inch harddisk or floppy drive. It uses only 5 V DC supply voltage (might be suitable for Laptops, but I have not verified this). You may mount the unit internally in a drive bay, accessible through a bezel with appropriate cutout or closed, or in an external drive compartment. The eject button is operated manually.

As for the pricing of the Adtron parts: those are designed to meet industrial or military specifications. Thus you can get single units on demand in spite the product is announced to have reached end of life. If you can grab a unit and you can afford it, my suggestion would be "strong buy". When you are about to pay USD 100 or more, compare to other similar devices listed in the 68kMLA Wiki.

 

[ReactiveMicro.com]

Prices come down over time, and such will drive down the cost of the IV cards sooner than we think. So money is not the issue here. I am mainly concerned that, in order to fully take advantage of all the speed those Extreme series cards offer, you would need "hardware support." So my question therefore is, can you make the hardware to take advantage of that speed? In other words, the SE/30 (or other compact Mac) would be able to take full advantage of the speed of the drive, limited only by the SCSI implementation in that given Mac, rather than being limited (in any way) by the flash hardware.

I'm not too sure I follow about 'hardware support'. As far as I understand the overall speed would be limited by the SCSI buss followed by the actual speed of the storage device, i.e. the HDD or Flash device. Again, writing times may be a bit slower right now and directly effected by price of course. But as time goes on and Flash becomes more advanced I'm sure writing access times will becomes less of a price factor.

Now I would assume a SCSI HDD would be slower in general, but only since it's mechanical. Flash being solid state and having much faster access times should be able to at least keep up with the SCSI HDDs that are currently being used even though there is a bit of translation going on with the SCSI CF Drive (SCSI-to-PCMCIA-to-IDE-to-CF for instance).

Simply put, I myself want a 100% silent, ultra-low power flash drive in about a 5GB or 8GB size, that will match or beat the speed of my current 7200rpm spinning platter hard disk. (Read speed is as important to me as write speed.) I also want it to be just as compatible with my software as any spinning platter HD would be.

As far as compatibility, I would assume the SCSI CF Drive would be seen as a removable device, much like any ZIP Drive would. Again, I don't know much about Mac though. On the Apple II side of things it's seen as any block device is and works just the same. So if any special drivers are needed, I would only assume they would be to support the removable aspect of the SCSI CF Drive more so then the actual storage aspect, but again I have no idea when it comes to Macs and their drivers. Anyone know for sure how this would work?

If I can get that, at a reasonable cost (including the flash card), then consider me on the waiting list!

Well no waiting list needed. I got my entire setup from eBay for about $125 with Drive, 256MB CF Card, Cables and PCMCIA to CF Adapter. For an idea 256MB is like 500 Gig on any modern PC.

As far as producing something custom, I have several options. Of course I would wait till the supply on eBay is gone. That seller has something in the range of 100+ units right now. So it's going to be a while I assume. Even then, I would like to fully document the speed aspect and compare it to IDE.

As far as speed, it's just as fast as my SCSI HDD that I've tested against the SCSI CF Drive. Although my DMA IDE Controller with CF Card blows the whole thing away as far as access speeds. I was a little surprised by this and need to try to find where the bottleneck is in my system. Maybe SCSI to CF isn't as fast as I had once though or this particular SCSI Drive is slower then what is actually possible.

Drive info...

Thanks for those links and all that info!

 

[Charlieman]

As far as speed, it's just as fast as my SCSI HDD that I've tested against the SCSI CF Drive. Although my DMA IDE Controller with CF Card blows the whole thing away as far as access speeds. I was a little surprised by this and need to try to find where the bottleneck is in my system. Maybe SCSI to CF isn't as fast as I had once though or this particular SCSI Drive is slower then what is actually possible.

You might need to experiment with disk formatters to get the best disk parameters and driver (the one that the formatter puts on the disk). HD SC Setup is going to be far from optimal.

Experiment with a CF card that you can afford to throw away. Multiple reformats will reduce its life considerably.