Best Hard Disk Environment for Apple IIe?

[Retronaut]

Hey, I have two HD options for my Apple IIe, one is the Fast Apple SCSI card, which I could use with a BlueSCSI, and another option is a Booti. The SCSI card is destined for my IIgs, but either way, Im inexperienced with an Apple II and I am pondering what the best HD environment/setup is for a IIe?
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Obviously I can have the multiple Disks mountable via the Booti, but... I can keep these drives formatted with ProDOS and booting to BASIC, but that would be a pretty slow UX. I would be able to navigate using DOS, load files etc. But is there a better option?
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I know there is the Apple II Desktop, a mouse driven GUI. Problem is, I DO have an suitable Apple Mouse, but NOT the mouse card. I THINK I can use a joystick as a stand-in for this, but I would imagine thats pretty janky?
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There was also MouseText based UI, did anyone ever make a full desktop GUI using this? Again, I guess lack of mouse is an issue.
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Other than these, is there maybe a better text/menu based option, where I can list usual suspects? I do know about Total Replay and Instant Replay. So yes, I can mount those two as images, but I am wondering about other general use, for example, say I wanted to launch Ultima III and then AppleWorks..

 

[Byrd]

Ease of use = Booti, and performance would be fine.

 

[waynestewart]

The Apple Hi-speed SCSI is faster on the IIgs but with the small IIe programs it really isn’t a factor. You can have multiple HDs with either. I’ve always used 2 partitions with a IIE and 5 with the IIgs.

There’s GUIs for the IIe and I occasionally use one but I always liked ProSel 8.

Either one would be fine with your IIe.

 

[bibilit]

I know there is the Apple II Desktop, a mouse driven GUI. Problem is, I DO have an suitable Apple Mouse, but NOT the mouse card. I THINK I can use a joystick as a stand-in for this, but I would imagine thats pretty janky?
.
There was also MouseText based UI, did anyone ever make a full desktop GUI using this? Again, I guess lack of mouse is an issue.

I think you are mystaken, this is Mouse Desk and not Mouse Text (which is something different)

Mouse Desk and Apple II Desktop are the same application, the name was changed at some point when Apple decided to sell it under its own.

Those are both using a mouse, just like any GUI, so will need one (IIRC you can use the Keyboard at some point but not to manage disks or HD)

 

[Snial]

<snip> another option is a Booti. <snip>

Booti gets my vote for being so dinky and made from components that could have been from the Apple ][ era (USB excepted).

Though having said that, an SD card version of BOOTi wouldn't even need a USB controller, just an SPI interface! Woztastic!

 

[Retronaut]

Booti gets my vote for being so dinky and made from components that could have been from the Apple ][ era (USB excepted).
View attachment 92340
Though having said that, an SD card version of BOOTi wouldn't even need a USB controller, just an SPI interface! Woztastic!

I already own a Booti, and I plan for it to be used on my IIe. The Fast SCSI is planned to be used with my IIgs. This post, more than anything is about whats the best SOFTWARE I can install, to make using several drives easier/faster to operate.

 

[superjer2000]

I already own a Booti, and I plan for it to be used on my IIe. The Fast SCSI is planned to be used with my IIgs. This post, more than anything is about whats the best SOFTWARE I can install, to make using several drives easier/faster to operate.

A few thoughts:

1) There are other mouse card options now - I have an Apple IIe with an actual Apple mouse card (and mouse) and another mouse card made by Chris Auger that allows a USB mouse to be used on the Apple II. This new card works pretty well, although tracks too fast depending on the DPI of the mouse being used. There might be other options available now too.

2) As I have mice on my IIe computers, I do boot directly into A2Desktop. It's a great shell, makes file management and loading programs super easy. Both of my IIe machines have accelerators also though so A2Desktop boots really fast. Without a mouse though A2Desktop doesn't make much sense.

3) My favorite text-based program launcher / shell is Sneeze. (https://mirrors.apple2.org.za/ftp.apple.asimov.net/images/disk_utils/) I've tried other options (ProSel etc.) but Sneeze is great - it's very logical in use, and has lots of additional features (copy files, view text files, graphic files etc.). It isn't very well known but I think it's the best option after A2Desktop.

 

[Byrd]

whats the best SOFTWARE I can install, to make using several drives easier/faster to operate.

Go the Booti for ease of use, the software is more than adequate. Again you won't exactly be running a stopwatch noticing any data throughput reduction on an Apple II era computer using modern solutions like these. If you want the best speed and software (similar to Booti), go a CFFA3000.

 

[nathall]

If your IIe is stock, I believe you’ll find A2Desktop way too slow to use as a GUI.

I run it on my IIc Plus w/ 1.125MB of RAM, where it loads itself into RAM on boot and runs exclusively from there. With the c Plus’s fast CPU and no disk access it feels comparable to an original Macintosh.

I tried it it once on my IIe for novelty, and with the 4x slower CPU and constant need to access the floppy, it was just unbearable.

 

[Retronaut]

If your IIe is stock, I believe you’ll find A2Desktop way too slow to use as a GUI.

I run it on my IIc Plus w/ 1.125MB of RAM, where it loads itself into RAM on boot and runs exclusively from there. With the c Plus’s fast CPU and no disk access it feels comparable to an original Macintosh.

I tried it it once on my IIe for novelty, and with the 4x slower CPU and constant need to access the floppy, it was just unbearable.

I have an Enhanced IIe, so it can use hard disks, I have tested this with both my Booti, which can load multiple HD images, 32mb each, and also using an Apple Fast SCSI card. So loading in A2Desktop would not be TOO slow, but yeah, I hear you.
Upgrading the machine to that much RAM is outside the wheelhouse of what I am trying to do. Upgrading it with an accelerator too, they seem to be VERY expensive, and getting one by chance is not going to happen for me I think. There is also the issue of having now mouse right now. I mean I have the mouse, but not the £130+ mouse card. Using a USB mouse sounds attractive, but only if its tracking speed can somehow be toned down in its software. So...

I will, I think, show A2Desktop in a video, but as it is impractical for my use, I'm thinking some kind of text based UI would be a better fit for a 1983 machine.

Is'nt there a thing called Tinsie (or similar) loader? Is this just a cut-down ProSel?

 

[inexorabletash]

Hey folks - I'm the unofficial maintainer of the unofficial new versions of Apple II DeskTop (née MouseDesk). Unofficially. I don't usually lurk on 68kmla but happened to check it out today.

Everything said so far is on point: using A2D is not a great experience without a mouse, with only floppies and at a stock 1MHz. Just a few things to add.

Regarding floppies - if you just have 140k floppies and are booting directly into games or other apps, you really don't want or need a GUI for managing files. It only makes sense once you have larger storage that you need to organize. While my modern A2D distribution packages include floppy images, they're just as a way to get the files installed onto some other medium.

Regarding keyboard control - the underlying library the developers used (Apple's MouseGraphics ToolKit) had a "safety mode" feature that wasn't even documented in MouseDesk that allowed what we'd now call "MouseKeys" mode. You can activate it with a special key sequence and drive the cursor around with the keyboard. I updated the sequence in modern versions to make it more difficult to activate by accident and easier to activate it intentionally. Most other functionality is available via keyboard shortcuts too, or using Esc to activate the menus. You can look at the documentation for specifics. There was also a gnarly bug affecting MouseKeys which I just fixed in the latest v1.5 beta.

Regarding speed - I was lucky enough to have a Laser 128EX clone growing up which had 1MHz, 2MHz and 3.6MHz mode as well as a SmartPort controller and a mono/color switch which makes it ideal for A2D. It does crawl at 1MHz especially with lots of files. But I have been spending some time recently on making the performance and responsiveness better at 1MHz. When v1.6 alpha builds drop (soon!) they should be a pleasant surprise. It really shows that the technical gap between the lowly 6502 (expanded with a glorious 128K of RAM, and tricked out with 800K floppies) and the mighty 68000 (burdened with only 128K of RAM and 400K floppies) wasn't so wide after all.

Again, check out the documentation site (docs, history, help, and especially the FAQ) and grab the latest (beta) release to enjoy the work that Apple and VersionSoft pulled off in 1986... with a few modern fixes and additions.

 

[nathall]

Hey, welcome!

I was an A2Desktop user since long before the recent “revival,” but I love what’s been happening with it the last few years. I’ve been keeping up with the updates and changes. Favorite addition so far beyond the performance and UI improvements are the screen savers.

 

[Retronaut]

Hey folks - I'm the unofficial maintainer of the unofficial new versions of Apple II DeskTop (née MouseDesk). Unofficially. I don't usually lurk on 68kmla but happened to check it out today.

Everything said so far is on point: using A2D is not a great experience without a mouse, with only floppies and at a stock 1MHz. Just a few things to add.

Regarding floppies - if you just have 140k floppies and are booting directly into games or other apps, you really don't want or need a GUI for managing files. It only makes sense once you have larger storage that you need to organize. While my modern A2D distribution packages include floppy images, they're just as a way to get the files installed onto some other medium.

Regarding keyboard control - the underlying library the developers used (Apple's MouseGraphics ToolKit) had a "safety mode" feature that wasn't even documented in MouseDesk that allowed what we'd now call "MouseKeys" mode. You can activate it with a special key sequence and drive the cursor around with the keyboard. I updated the sequence in modern versions to make it more difficult to activate by accident and easier to activate it intentionally. Most other functionality is available via keyboard shortcuts too, or using Esc to activate the menus. You can look at the documentation for specifics. There was also a gnarly bug affecting MouseKeys which I just fixed in the latest v1.5 beta.

Regarding speed - I was lucky enough to have a Laser 128EX clone growing up which had 1MHz, 2MHz and 3.6MHz mode as well as a SmartPort controller and a mono/color switch which makes it ideal for A2D. It does crawl at 1MHz especially with lots of files. But I have been spending some time recently on making the performance and responsiveness better at 1MHz. When v1.6 alpha builds drop (soon!) they should be a pleasant surprise. It really shows that the technical gap between the lowly 6502 (expanded with a glorious 128K of RAM, and tricked out with 800K floppies) and the mighty 68000 (burdened with only 128K of RAM and 400K floppies) wasn't so wide after all.

Again, check out the documentation site (docs, history, help, and especially the FAQ) and grab the latest (beta) release to enjoy the work that Apple and VersionSoft pulled off in 1986... with a few modern fixes and additions.

Thanks for that, it IS all useful info. I think I WILL feature this as a soliution for an Apple IIe, WITH the proviso of course that it works a LOT better with more RAM and an accelerated machine (IIc+) or IIe accelerator. The new enhancements for a 1Mhz machine DO sound very encouraging. I have been looking at Bitsy Bye, ProSel and Sneeze (noot looked at it yet, but know of it). This is all for a future video on HD solutions and then how do you handle having 32MB+ of data to go through. Should be a fund video

I'll keep an eye out for the fruits of the 1Mhz focus work, do post about it HERE as well please!