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Apple Lisa 2/5 Ram + Keyboard problems
- Thread starter flexo
- Start date
Wow, those guys are selling a lot of Lisa stuff! Worth taking a look
For the floppy, I need to check when I get home, but I am pretty sure the seller sent me some double density floppies. In either case, the floppy drive won't take any floppies until I lubricate it so I have no way of testing
For the MEM 71 error though, I am now a bit confused.
Is it just one of the memory boards, or is it also related to the I/O board? The COPS chip installed on this machine doesn't have any Apple markings - could that be the reason why the I/O board revision is not appearing on the error screen? Maybe its one of the reverse engineered chips like Rick posted and those chips simply don't return the I/O revision? (Mine does look a lot like the one on that eBay page.)
Huh, upon some googling it seems that it was dumped in the last few months. Also, I disregard VintageMicros as a supplier of parts because of bad previous experiences with him and his questionable business practice of trying to sue people who threaten this ROM selling business. I've already had to shut him up twice because of public domain bin files.
Also, again regarding error 71: http://lisafaq.sunder.net/single.html#lisafaq-hw-mem_error
My bad. I was thinking about the kludgy hard drive option Sun Remarketing was selling.
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Flexo, since you can even get into service mode right now:
If your Lisa has two RAM boards (most do), then try powering on the system with just one RAM board at a time (in the slot closest to the CPU card), and see if the 71 error goes away. This is an easy to see if you do in fact have a bad RAM chip on one of the board.
My guess is that the memory error is due to the shared FDC RAM on the IO card. This RAM is powered by the standby power rail, that I can see that is rotted out on your board. The clue here is that you don't see the IO ROM revision ID during POST, this ID is read out of the FDC RAM.
You may still have slot RAM issues also, but you definitely have IO issues that need to be addressed.
You really got taken, big bucks for a working system with a bad floppy drive, bad IO card, bad RAM, and a bad keyboard.
When you are ready, let me now and I can sell you a brand new IO card.
Rick
If your Lisa has two RAM boards (most do), then try powering on the system with just one RAM board at a time (in the slot closest to the CPU card), and see if the 71 error goes away. This is an easy to see if you do in fact have a bad RAM chip on one of the board.
My guess is that the memory error is due to the shared FDC RAM on the IO card. This RAM is powered by the standby power rail, that I can see that is rotted out on your board. The clue here is that you don't see the IO ROM revision ID during POST, this ID is read out of the FDC RAM.
You may still have slot RAM issues also, but you definitely have IO issues that need to be addressed.
You really got taken, big bucks for a working system with a bad floppy drive, bad IO card, bad RAM, and a bad keyboard.
When you are ready, let me now and I can sell you a brand new IO card.
Rick
Hi Rick!
I've removed MEM B - got the I/O error again. Then I swapped them.. and boom.
Now I am getting I/O Error 57.. which apparently means "Disk controller problem" ("Lite adapter?")
Three thousand dollars for this system.. I guess I just got too excited - most of the Apple Lisas I see on eBay are "untested" (ie: broken) and sell for ~$1-1.5k. The only system for sale that actually boots now sells for almost $5k..
I guess I'll be buying that I/O board soon
(Update: Just noticed that the top right corner now displays "H/00")
(Update #2: I've also found out how to "fix" of the "personality error" - the problem when the Lisa thinks it has two floppies, it freezes during boot - and it's not pretty: basically I have to keep it up and running for ~10 minutes and restart it 3-4 times. then when it only shows floppy #1 and ProFile, it boots normally)
I've removed MEM B - got the I/O error again. Then I swapped them.. and boom.
Now I am getting I/O Error 57.. which apparently means "Disk controller problem" ("Lite adapter?")
Three thousand dollars for this system.. I guess I just got too excited - most of the Apple Lisas I see on eBay are "untested" (ie: broken) and sell for ~$1-1.5k. The only system for sale that actually boots now sells for almost $5k..
I guess I'll be buying that I/O board soon
(Update: Just noticed that the top right corner now displays "H/00")
(Update #2: I've also found out how to "fix" of the "personality error" - the problem when the Lisa thinks it has two floppies, it freezes during boot - and it's not pretty: basically I have to keep it up and running for ~10 minutes and restart it 3-4 times. then when it only shows floppy #1 and ProFile, it boots normally)
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Hi everyone - update: I've bought another Lisa. (heh.) The thing is, I am afraid that if I get into soldering and parts replacing, I'll just break the whole thing down. I am terrible at stuff like that, and don't know anyone who lives within 1,000 miles that can do it. I would rather have one laying around for parts to give to someone later.
Anyways, the seller decided to break the whole thing down into packages, and I got the package #1. It looks like it's a Lisa 2/10. (Interrupt button, less ports.) and from the screenshots from the sale page, I can tell it's been modified to run MacWorks XL, but not with the square pixels modification. (Can anyone confirm this?) The seller also told me that it has an X/Profile installed with MacWorks (though he packed and shipped the whole thing before I asked if it can boot into LOS, so he doesn't know)
So I was planning on mixing-and-matching parts to create one working Lisa that can boot into LOS. I've already replaced the memory boards it came with on my old Lisa, and I got it to pass the RAM test, and now it gets stuck in I/O port with error 57. Lisa FAQ says it might related to the Lite adapter, and luckily I bought one beforehand - I replaced it but it didn't make any difference.
I'm guessing replacing the I/O board from the Lisa 2/10 with mine would either cause it to not be able to boot into LOS (there is a chip marked XL) or worse, fry the whole thing?
..or is it time for me to admit that I suck at this and to quit before spending even more money on this?
Anyways, the seller decided to break the whole thing down into packages, and I got the package #1. It looks like it's a Lisa 2/10. (Interrupt button, less ports.) and from the screenshots from the sale page, I can tell it's been modified to run MacWorks XL, but not with the square pixels modification. (Can anyone confirm this?) The seller also told me that it has an X/Profile installed with MacWorks (though he packed and shipped the whole thing before I asked if it can boot into LOS, so he doesn't know)
So I was planning on mixing-and-matching parts to create one working Lisa that can boot into LOS. I've already replaced the memory boards it came with on my old Lisa, and I got it to pass the RAM test, and now it gets stuck in I/O port with error 57. Lisa FAQ says it might related to the Lite adapter, and luckily I bought one beforehand - I replaced it but it didn't make any difference.
I'm guessing replacing the I/O board from the Lisa 2/10 with mine would either cause it to not be able to boot into LOS (there is a chip marked XL) or worse, fry the whole thing?
..or is it time for me to admit that I suck at this and to quit before spending even more money on this?
Congrats on a fine lookin' 2/10. Damn I wish I had one of those beasts!
If the ROM revision on the CPU board is 3A, then it can't run LOS. The part number for 3A ROMs is either 341-0346A or 341-0347A (other ROM revisions don't have an A at the end)
A Lisa 2/10 running MacWorks Plus (according to your picture, yours doesn't run MacWorks XL but MW+) can run LOS if the ROM revision is H: The part number for H ROMs is either 341-0175H or 341-0176H (note the H at the end)
Check the CPU ROM. If it's H then you're all right. If it's 3A, then you'll have to replace the ROM. It's just a matter of removing the chip and putting another one in.
MacWorks Plus requires a 800k drive. Apparently you can use an 800k drive in LOS. It just won't be recognised as a 800k drive but a 400k one. IIRC there was a software hack on LOS which enabled 800k support by treating the 800k disk as two 400k disks...
You should not swap I/O boards between the 2/5 and the 2/10. They are not interchangeable.
I don't think your 2/10 has the screen kit, so it should have H ROMs. But you should double check, just in case.
If the ROM revision on the CPU board is 3A, then it can't run LOS. The part number for 3A ROMs is either 341-0346A or 341-0347A (other ROM revisions don't have an A at the end)
A Lisa 2/10 running MacWorks Plus (according to your picture, yours doesn't run MacWorks XL but MW+) can run LOS if the ROM revision is H: The part number for H ROMs is either 341-0175H or 341-0176H (note the H at the end)
Check the CPU ROM. If it's H then you're all right. If it's 3A, then you'll have to replace the ROM. It's just a matter of removing the chip and putting another one in.
MacWorks Plus requires a 800k drive. Apparently you can use an 800k drive in LOS. It just won't be recognised as a 800k drive but a 400k one. IIRC there was a software hack on LOS which enabled 800k support by treating the 800k disk as two 400k disks...
You should not swap I/O boards between the 2/5 and the 2/10. They are not interchangeable.
I don't think your 2/10 has the screen kit, so it should have H ROMs. But you should double check, just in case.
MW+ does not require a 800K drive. The MW+ boot and install disks are 400K, and SunRem had special set of 400K disks to install system 6 on the hard disk. What you can't do is boot System 6 off a 400K floppy, it does not fit.
From the photos I saw, the system has the H roms and an X/Profile. It will run the LOS or MW just fine.
For the record: No version of MW requires the Screen Mod, and there is no such thing as a "Lisa modified to run MW". Macintosh XL was just a marketing term apple used.
From the lisa FAQ:
I guess they came up with a better idea to put them on 400k drives afterwards...
Totally off topic here but maybe you could run system 6 on a standard 512k using those disks? Hummmm...
I don't want to sound super abrasive or discouraging but if you do not want to learn the basic principles of soldering in this hobby my suggestion is to find another hobby.
When working with computers (new and old) you WILL come across a point where the skill of soldering is necessary. You don't need expensive stations or specialty tips. You don't need state-of-the-art digital temperature controlled irons and special types of solder. I started with a $15 35w iron from Radio Shack and a spool of .08mm solder and 15 years later, I'm technically still using that even though I've trained myself up from soldering things wrapped around little brass pins on a pegboard to surface mount QFP's.
Please do not set the skill of soldering aside because you watched someone on youtube do it, thought it was hard and decided it wasn't your thing. The headaches of piling up things you need to find someone to solder will be much bigger than those first few hours at the kitchen table soldering random things together to get the hang of it.
That's an interesting question, the 400K system 6 install I was referring too was specifically for use with MW+. MW+ is doing Mac Plus ROM emulation (128K ROM) with the Lisa's 1 Meg of RAM and HD, so it would be much more like running system 6 on a Mac Plus with a 400K drive (something that didn't exist) than on a 400K Drive 512K Mac (64 Meg ROM). I know that there is such a thing as a 512KE Mac (128K ROM), but the "Enhanced" upgrade was both the ROMS and the 800K drive. Officially, there never was 512KE without the DS drive.
Hi everyone! Thank you so much for the answers*
Bad news again, though: I guess I was just too excited to receive the box that I didn't even see this. I immediately loosened the screws and removed the rods and set the board loose and fixed the "tab"(?) but the board is still pretty badly bent. I've messaged the seller and we agreed to move forward with what to do next once the other packages arrive. I'm hoping it won't cause any problems..
Is the whole back board exchangeable between 2/5 and 2/10? I would love to see if the CPU board actually work or not before the other packages arrive so I can let the seller know, but I don't think it is likely due to the Widget drive? Or is the CPU board exchangeable, in case that board is dead?
* seriously, I am always amazed by the knowledge and helpfulness of the people on these forums - part numbers, rom revisions etc. I couldn't find anything other than Lisa FAQ, which is amazing - but now I feel like I am talking to a group of Apple engineers
Bad news again, though: I guess I was just too excited to receive the box that I didn't even see this. I immediately loosened the screws and removed the rods and set the board loose and fixed the "tab"(?) but the board is still pretty badly bent. I've messaged the seller and we agreed to move forward with what to do next once the other packages arrive. I'm hoping it won't cause any problems..
Is the whole back board exchangeable between 2/5 and 2/10? I would love to see if the CPU board actually work or not before the other packages arrive so I can let the seller know, but I don't think it is likely due to the Widget drive? Or is the CPU board exchangeable, in case that board is dead?
You are absolutely right and I would love to learn how to solder someday, but I wouldn't feel comfortable at all soldering a very rare computer that is older than me without at least a few months of experience first. If it were a more common machine I would give it a try, but not with a Lisa
Yep, I saw the H too. This is great news! I guess the next step is to read up on how to get LOS installed on that X/Profile - I've asked VintageMicros, who seems to be the exclusive seller of X/Profile if they sell Lisa OS CFs separately (it apparently comes with MW+ and LOS on two separate CFs if you buy it), but he said no - so I need to do some research on how to get LOS on that thing without creating installation floppies (since I'm not sure if the floppy drive on the 2/10 will work or not)
* seriously, I am always amazed by the knowledge and helpfulness of the people on these forums - part numbers, rom revisions etc. I couldn't find anything other than Lisa FAQ, which is amazing - but now I feel like I am talking to a group of Apple engineers
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The CPU card is the same (if that what you are calling the back card), and you can safely swap it in the two systems. The mother board & card cage are different you can not swap them between the systems.
I was talking about the whole card cage
But update: I found a CF card with LOS on the X/Profile, changed the disk mode to boot from it and bam! LOS. No memory or I/O board errors, no hanging while booting 80% of the time. The whole system works perfectly. The space key was acting a bit weird, so I've disassembled it and found out one of the "cross shaped" pieces got dislocated from the white piece. Fixing it was very easy though, and the keyboard works great now.
And I guess the first Lisa was a complete dud. Oh well, at least now I have a spare CPU and mem board.
Now if I can find a printer for it, I'll have a whole office system
(In the meanwhile, I'll take a look at this)
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FYI, the original Apple Imagewriter is compatible with the Lisa, you just need the right cable to connect it to serial B and set a couple of dip switches accordingly.Now if I can find a printer for it, I'll have a whole office system
Unfortunately all the ImageWriter Is on eBay are "untested" (ie: broken) There is a good amount of working ImageWriter IIs though.
Seems like ImageWriter II also uses parallel and serial (or at least this seller I found on eBay is giving a parallel cable for no reason with it), is it compatible with Lisa, though?
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