SE/30 Common Fixable problems

[jukingeo]

Hello all,

I am looking into getting a classic Mac to just 'play around' with in terms of games and I/O control. I never had a Mac before and I want something that is small and portable so I don't have to leave it set up all the time.

After my initial searches for the classic style Macs, it seems that one model, the SE/30 comes to the forefront because of the 68030 processor and 128meg upgradability for the RAM.

I was looking for something inexpensive (around $100 to $150) and sometimes I come across a non-working SE/30 that falls into this price range. Now I am a technician so I can solder and service PCB's to a certain degree, however I am not familiar with the common failure nodes of the Mac SE/30. I would like to know what are the more common problems that occur with the SE/30.

One thing I see often is usually issues with the monitor. Dead monitor, black & white lines, etc. I would like to know if these are common problems that are easily fixed. Simply put, if a monitor just needs a cap job, then it may be worth the price of admission.

I would figure that hard drive failures also rank the top of the leader board as well. Are the hard drives in these machines easily replaced?

Other things I would like to know for this particular model:

1) Is the RAM still easy to come by?

2) What kind of printer did the SE/30 use?

3) What expansion capabilities did this computer have?

Thanx,

Geo

 

[trag]

After my initial searches for the classic style Macs, it seems that one model, the SE/30 comes to the forefront because of the 68030 processor and 128meg upgradability for the RAM.
I was looking for something inexpensive (around $100 to $150) and sometimes I come across a non-working SE/30 that falls into this price range. Now I am a technician so I can solder and service PCB's to a certain degree, however I am not familiar with the common failure nodes of the Mac SE/30. I would like to know what are the more common problems that occur with the SE/30.

The most common failure we're currently reading about in the forums for the SE/30 is leaking electrolytic capacitors on the logic board causing what is termed sisami-Mac (not sure I spelled that right), which is powering on to a sort of checkerboard pattern and failing to boot. The repair for this ranges from removing the old caps (11 SMs, and 2 axials) cleaning the board and replacing the caps, to the former plus repairing damaged pins, solder, traces and/or vias which may have been corroded by the leakage from the electrolytics.

The need for serious board repair is not common, but also not unheard of. If you can trace a connection and bypass it with wire wrap, this also should present little trouble for you.

The other common failure modes involve the components on the Analog board or in the power supply, but I'm not sure if this was common at all on the SE/30. Failed analog boards were common in the Mac Plus, which has fairly similar circuitry, but for the SE and SE/30 Apple added a fan and beefed up many of the components, which reduced the cause of failure. Those components are not difficult to find either, except for the flyback transformer. They used to be commonly available, but I cannot find a source for new flyback transformers anywhere any more. They might be out there, but I haven't found them.

If you can find an inexpensive copy (or check it out at a library) Larry Pina's book, "Macintosh Repair and Upgrade Secrets" can tell you more about failing and repairing SE analog boards and power supplies (SE shares analog board and power supply with SE/30). Also see, "The Dead Mac Scrolls" and "Mac Classic & SE: Repair and Upgrade Secrets".

I would figure that hard drive failures also rank the top of the leader board as well. Are the hard drives in these machines easily replaced?
Other things I would like to know for this particular model:

1) Is the RAM still easy to come by?

2) What kind of printer did the SE/30 use?

3) What expansion capabilities did this computer have?

The hard drives are standard 50 pin SCSI hard drives. If you can get the machine open, they're not horrible to replace, but it's not like working on a nice desktop case either. And one must be careful not to break the neck of the CRT. You can also use a SCSI-to-IDE adapter and install a common IDE drive or even a laptop drive. One example is the Acard 7720U which used to be available for about $40 shipped on Ebay but seems to be more expensive now.

If the hard drive is not an Apple branded drive, you'll need either a third party formatting utility or a hacked version of Apple's formatting utility. Neither is especially hard to find.

RAM is standard 30 pin SIMMs. They're ancient but not especially rare. Eight 16MB SIMMs could easily cost $80 but you may find them for $60 with some patience. If you're happy with 8 MB, 1 MB SIMMs are practically free and 4 MB SIMMs are not especially pricey either, taking you to 32 MB, which realistically, is enough for most reasonable use of the SE/30.

The ROM (firmware, or BIOS) of the SE/30 is not 32 bit clean (defaults to 24 bit addressing) so it does not support more than 8 MB of RAM (24 bit addressing yields 16M of address space, and some of it is used for I/O) unless you install a utility called Mode32. Alternatively, you can find a ROM SIMM from a Mac IIfx or Mac IIsi and install that to obtain 32 bit capable firmware.

The printer is a big topic. Printer connectivity is through the Mini-DIN8 serial ports. There is no parallel port. A variety of serial printers were available. How common they would be today, I do not know.

Apple's LaserWriter extension (print driver) outputs Postscript. So you can use most postscript printers if you can manage connectivity to them. Many older printers (and a few new ones still) supported LocalTalk (a network media). The serial ports on Macs were actually combined serial and LocalTalk ports, depending on how you configured them. So, for example, you can find many old HP JetDirect cards with LocalTalk or Ethernet & LocalTalk support. Epson also made some LocalTalk cards for their printers.

Alternatively, you can get a LocalTalk to Ethernet bridge. These were sold under names such as Asante's MicroAsantePrint, AsanteTalk, and similar products from Dayna and Farallon. This will bridge from LocalTalk to ethernet, but the network protocol will still be AppleTalk, so you'll need a printer than understands AppleTalk over ethernet (sometimes called EtherTalk).

Finally, the SE/30 has a PDS slot and ethernet cards for that PDS slot are not terribly rare, though not as common as they once were. At some point Apple added printing via TCP/IP to the options, but I'm not sure if the operating system where that was first added overlaps with the operating systems that the SE/30 can use.

Oh, and that ties in nicely to your number 3. The SE/30 has one internal PDS slot. It can take the ethernet card, or various (fairly rare) video boards, or a CPU accelerator, or a combination of the above with the proper splitter/adapter/ethernet card-with-pass-through. Google up "Gamba SE/30" and there's a load of information on expansion possibilities.

 

[jukingeo]

Hello Trag,

The most common failure we're currently reading about in the forums for the SE/30 is leaking electrolytic capacitors on the logic board causing what is termed sisami-Mac (not sure I spelled that right), which is powering on to a sort of checkerboard pattern and failing to boot. The repair for this ranges from removing the old caps (11 SMs, and 2 axials) cleaning the board and replacing the caps, to the former plus repairing damaged pins, solder, traces and/or vias which may have been corroded by the leakage from the electrolytics....

...If you can find an inexpensive copy (or check it out at a library) Larry Pina's book, "Macintosh Repair and Upgrade Secrets" can tell you more about failing and repairing SE analog boards and power supplies (SE shares analog board and power supply with SE/30). Also see, "The Dead Mac Scrolls" and "Mac Classic & SE: Repair and Upgrade Secrets".

Ok, thanks for the heads up on that book. I did find this yesterday (after quite a bit of time searching though):

http://www.biwa.ne.jp/~shamada/fullmac/repairEng.html#WavyDisplay

Not bad, huh? It does cover quite a few display problems. Some of which I have seen before when people put items up on Ebay. Thus I was wondering that I could probably cash in on a potentially minor fix (since I am a tech anyway).

The hard drives are standard 50 pin SCSI hard drives. If you can get the machine open, they're not horrible to replace, but it's not like working on a nice desktop case either. And one must be careful not to break the neck of the CRT. You can also use a SCSI-to-IDE adapter and install a common IDE drive or even a laptop drive. One example is the Acard 7720U which used to be available for about $40 shipped on Ebay but seems to be more expensive now.

If the hard drive is not an Apple branded drive, you'll need either a third party formatting utility or a hacked version of Apple's formatting utility. Neither is especially hard to find.

So you CAN use a modern IDE drive with a SCSI adapter BUT you must have an Apple hard drive regardless otherwise it will not work, correct?

Speaking of the SCSI, the port on the back of the computer...what other uses for that port besides hard drive and scanner hookups? Is there a way to use it for I/O control (turning lights on/off, motor control, etc).

RAM is standard 30 pin SIMMs. They're ancient but not especially rare. Eight 16MB SIMMs could easily cost $80 but you may find them for $60 with some patience. If you're happy with 8 MB, 1 MB SIMMs are practically free and 4 MB SIMMs are not especially pricey either, taking you to 32 MB, which realistically, is enough for most reasonable use of the SE/30.

Oh, yeah, I don't think I would need to go the full 128meg on that machine. 32meg should be fine.

The ROM (firmware, or BIOS) of the SE/30 is not 32 bit clean (defaults to 24 bit addressing) so it does not support more than 8 MB of RAM (24 bit addressing yields 16M of address space, and some of it is used for I/O) unless you install a utility called Mode32. Alternatively, you can find a ROM SIMM from a Mac IIfx or Mac IIsi and install that to obtain 32 bit capable firmware.

So if it doesn't support more than 8mb of RAM, what would be the point of going to 128meg, or even 32 meg?

The printer is a big topic. Printer connectivity is through the Mini-DIN8 serial ports. There is no parallel port. A variety of serial printers were available. How common they would be today, I do not know.

Apple's LaserWriter extension (print driver) outputs Postscript. So you can use most postscript printers if you can manage connectivity to them. Many older printers (and a few new ones still) supported LocalTalk (a network media). The serial ports on Macs were actually combined serial and LocalTalk ports, depending on how you configured them. So, for example, you can find many old HP JetDirect cards with LocalTalk or Ethernet & LocalTalk support. Epson also made some LocalTalk cards for their printers.

Alternatively, you can get a LocalTalk to Ethernet bridge. These were sold under names such as Asante's MicroAsantePrint, AsanteTalk, and similar products from Dayna and Farallon. This will bridge from LocalTalk to ethernet, but the network protocol will still be AppleTalk, so you'll need a printer than understands AppleTalk over ethernet (sometimes called EtherTalk).

Whew! That is a lot to take in just for a printer hookup.

Finally, the SE/30 has a PDS slot and ethernet cards for that PDS slot are not terribly rare, though not as common as they once were. At some point Apple added printing via TCP/IP to the options, but I'm not sure if the operating system where that was first added overlaps with the operating systems that the SE/30 can use.

With a Network card installed in a Mac, could I use a modern printer that has a standard TCP/IP network hookup?

Oh, and that ties in nicely to your number 3. The SE/30 has one internal PDS slot. It can take the ethernet card, or various (fairly rare) video boards, or a CPU accelerator, or a combination of the above with the proper splitter/adapter/ethernet card-with-pass-through. Google up "Gamba SE/30" and there's a load of information on expansion possibilities.

Ok, thanx for the info!

Geo

 

[Osgeld]

So you CAN use a modern IDE drive with a SCSI adapter BUT you must have an Apple hard drive regardless otherwise it will not work, correct?

you just need hard disk toolkit, power tools or the hacked apple hd setup, the only "thing" keeping the mac from seeing a normal drive is a lockout that the hd setup looks for

 

[jukingeo]

So you CAN use a modern IDE drive with a SCSI adapter BUT you must have an Apple hard drive regardless otherwise it will not work, correct?

you just need hard disk toolkit, power tools or the hacked apple hd setup, the only "thing" keeping the mac from seeing a normal drive is a lockout that the hd setup looks for

How big of a hard drive can you put on the Mac's? Since they have a SCSI to IDE adapter, do they also have a SCSI to SATA adapter? According to my readings on SATA, SATA seems closer to SCSI than IDE AND SATA drives seem to be more available now. The thing is regardless of using an IDE or SATA drive...what is the theoretical maximum size drive that will be recognized by the Mac.

Now if the floppy goes, I am assuming that even though the drive on an SE/30 is the 1.44m standard, is the drive standard or is that Mac proprietary?

Oh Trag,

I have looked up that Macintosh repair book and boy oh boy the private listers on Amazon are sure scalping the book. The starting price is $63 with one fellow even asking $134 for it. That is reDACKulous if you ask me.

The price is a bit high on the "The Dead Scrolls..." book, but at least it is around $35.

I found some other good stuff on-line as well. I did find a serial printer for the Mac...but boy oh boy are printers a HARD find. I think it would be much better to go with a network printer.

Sidebar & slightly off topic. Speaking of network...can the SE/30 still be able to get on today's internet? I know I probably would be in trouble with things like YouTube and music sites, but what about standard emails? I should be able to at least do that right?

This is what I would need, correct?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Apple-Macintosh-Mac-LC-PDS-Ethernet-Network-Card_W0QQitemZ350266251534QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item518d7ed90e

BTW....How do you add pictures to posts in this forum?

Thanx,

Geo

 

[trag]

So you CAN use a modern IDE drive with a SCSI adapter BUT you must have an Apple hard drive regardless otherwise it will not work, correct?

No. If you use a non-Apple hard drive, then you need to use a non-Apple utility to format the hard drive. Or the hacked Apple utility. So, Apple hard drive: use the Apple utility to format the drive. Non-Apple drive: Use any of the readily available non-Apple utilities to format the drive. They probably don't seem readily available to a new Mac person such as yourself, but if you started a separate thread on third party formatting utilities you would get whatever you needed.

Speaking of the SCSI, the port on the back of the computer...what other uses for that port besides hard drive and scanner hookups? Is there a way to use it for I/O control (turning lights on/off, motor control, etc).

Probably, but you'd have to write software to drive the SCSI port that way. The DB25 connector on the back of the machine is a standard SCSI port using a non-standard connector (25 pins instead of 50). Arguably, it is a 26 pin connector, as I believe that the connector housing supplies the ground. I could be wrong about that though.

So if it doesn't support more than 8mb of RAM, what would be the point of going to 128meg, or even 32 meg?

As I wrote, if you install the control panel Mode32, then it will support memory capacity above 8 MB.

Whew! That is a lot to take in just for a printer hookup.

You've always had to deal with the same information, it's just that you never had to notice it before. There are three components to printer compatibility for all computers and operating systems:

1) Communications media -- You must be able to physically interface the computer and the printer. In the Windows world this was typically accomplished with a parallel port interface. Other examples are serial interfaces (RS232, RS422 (?)), network interfaces (localtalk, ethernet, token ring) and USB, which I guess is a fancier serial interface.

2) Communications protocol -- This is how the information is packaged for communication over the hardware media. I'm not sure direct connections such as parallel or serial have a communications protocol, but I guess they must have something analogous. On networks, examples of protocols are TCP/IP, AppleTalk or Ethertalk and IPX/SPX.

3) Printer Language -- The print driver on your computer translates the images to be printed into a code the printer can understand (if you're lucky) called the printer language. Windows machines were typically using PCL4 when I stopped paying attention. Some of them used postscript. Printers built specifically for older Macs which connect via the serial port will have QuickDraw support. But Postscript is a standard beyond the Macintosh world and the LaserWriter driver will create postscript output.

So, for example, when I bought a Color Laser Printer a year ago at Christmas I narrowed my choice to three models. They all had ethernet support, and because I have a LocalTalk to Ethernet bridge on my network, all my Macs would be able to communicate with the printer over the Media layer. All the printers had Postscript support, so all my Mac's printer drivers (extensions in Macs parlance) could create usable output for the printers. But only one of the printers supported the AppleTalk Communications Protocol (or listed it in the spec. I still suspect that the Xerox model had it but forgot to list it). So my older Macs were best served by getting the printer with AppleTalk support because Apple didn't add printing over TCP/IP until fairly late in the Classic OS and some of my older machines won't run an OS new enough to support TCP/IP printing, I think.

With a Network card installed in a Mac, could I use a modern printer that has a standard TCP/IP network hookup?

You'd want to ask here when TCP/IP printing support was added. That is, what is the earliest OS version which supports it. I don't know. Then figure out if the SE/30 runs that late of a version of the OS.

If you can find an old HP LaserJet 4M or 5M or 4M Plus, those are perfect, unless you want color. The M in the model number just indicates that it has the Postscript SIMM installed (Macintosh version). You'll also want one with a LocalTalk or Ethernet or LocalTalk/Ethernet JetDirect card installed. The M models came with the JetDirect card but after so many years, who knows if they're still in the machine, so it's good to check.

Since they have a SCSI to IDE adapter, do they also have a SCSI to SATA adapter?

Your phrasing is a little confusing to me here. Just to be clear... The Mac does not have a SCSI to IDE adapter, but SCSI to IDE adapter do exist. I think the latter is what you meant. So yes, for example, Acard makes a SCSI to IDE or SCSI to ATA adapter. They also make some SCSI to SATA adapters. I have not shopped for the latter. You might try Acard's website, keeping in mind that the prices in their online store is the highest you should ever pay. Their products or similar products from other manufacturers are sometimes available for much less.

How big of a hard drive can you put on the Mac's?

You can install any size drive, but the OS can only address volumes up to 2 GB. So, e.g., if you install a 9 GB drive, partition it into four 2 GB volumes and one 1 GB volume or something similar. Later OSs raised this to some number of Terabytes (2?) but the SE/30 doesn't run OSs that new, I think.

I have looked up that Macintosh repair book and boy oh boy the private listers on Amazon are sure scalping the book.

It's been out of print for a long time and it's a useful book to crazy people with old Macs. However, if you're patient, some times you can get a deal on it. I have bought some of Pina's books for around $10, but I already had the first two titles I listed from when they were in print. It used to be that the Ebay prices were high and the Amazon prices affordable. I guess Amazon caught up.

This is what I would need, correct?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Apple-Macintosh-Mac ... 518d7ed90e

No. That is for an *LC* PDS slot. There were several different PDS slots in the Macintosh family. As you might expect, a 68040 Processor Direct Slot is a very different animal from a 68030 Processor Direct Slot. But there were also some differences between machines with the same CPU. Apple finally standardized, more or less, by introducing the LC PDS Slot, which first appeared in the Mac LC, hence the name. But the SE/30 is an earlier model before it standardized. You need a network card specifically for the SE/30 PDS slot. The IIsi uses the same card, because it has a compatible PDS slot.

BTW....How do you add pictures to posts in this forum?

I have no idea. Perhaps someone else will field that one.

 

[jukingeo]

No. If you use a non-Apple hard drive, then you need to use a non-Apple utility to format the hard drive. Or the hacked Apple utility. So, Apple hard drive: use the Apple utility to format the drive. Non-Apple drive: Use any of the readily available non-Apple utilities to format the drive.

Ok, gottcha.

Speaking of the SCSI, the port on the back of the computer...what other uses for that port besides hard drive and scanner hookups? Is there a way to use it for I/O control (turning lights on/off, motor control, etc).

Probably, but you'd have to write software to drive the SCSI port that way. The DB25 connector on the back of the machine is a standard SCSI port using a non-standard connector (25 pins instead of 50). Arguably, it is a 26 pin connector, as I believe that the connector housing supplies the ground. I could be wrong about that though.

Speaking of writing software. Dos systems usually had a simple programming langauge called "BASIC". Did the Mac have something similar?

So if it doesn't support more than 8mb of RAM, what would be the point of going to 128meg, or even 32 meg?

As I wrote, if you install the control panel Mode32, then it will support memory capacity above 8 MB.

I am assuming this is like a special piece of software? I remember back in the days of Windows 95 they had limitations on the hard drives too and you would have to install a utility that would allow you to go past the cap they had on the hard drives. It was called something like LBA conversion or what.

Whew! That is a lot to take in just for a printer hookup.

You've always had to deal with the same information, it's just that you never had to notice it before. There are three components to printer compatibility for all computers and operating systems:

1) Communications media -- You must be able to physically interface the computer and the printer. In the Windows world this was typically accomplished with a parallel port interface. Other examples are serial interfaces (RS232, RS422 (?)), network interfaces (localtalk, ethernet, token ring) and USB, which I guess is a fancier serial interface.

2) Communications protocol -- This is how the information is packaged for communication over the hardware media. I'm not sure direct connections such as parallel or serial have a communications protocol, but I guess they must have something analogous. On networks, examples of protocols are TCP/IP, AppleTalk or Ethertalk and IPX/SPX.

3) Printer Language -- The print driver on your computer translates the images to be printed into a code the printer can understand (if you're lucky) called the printer language. Windows machines were typically using PCL4 when I stopped paying attention. Some of them used postscript. Printers built specifically for older Macs which connect via the serial port will have QuickDraw support. But Postscript is a standard beyond the Macintosh world and the LaserWriter driver will create postscript output.

So, for example, when I bought a Color Laser Printer a year ago at Christmas I narrowed my choice to three models. They all had ethernet support, and because I have a LocalTalk to Ethernet bridge on my network, all my Macs would be able to communicate with the printer over the Media layer. All the printers had Postscript support, so all my Mac's printer drivers (extensions in Macs parlance) could create usable output for the printers. But only one of the printers supported the AppleTalk Communications Protocol (or listed it in the spec. I still suspect that the Xerox model had it but forgot to list it). So my older Macs were best served by getting the printer with AppleTalk support because Apple didn't add printing over TCP/IP until fairly late in the Classic OS and some of my older machines won't run an OS new enough to support TCP/IP printing, I think.

So then it probably would be best to find out what version of the MAC OS started using TCP/IP. I would assume then if the Mac computer had that capability then it should be able to communicate (share files) with a Windows machine?

If you can find an old HP LaserJet 4M or 5M or 4M Plus, those are perfect, unless you want color.

Hmmm, no not really. If I have a monochrome display, it would be safe to say that a monochrome printer would be fine .

The M in the model number just indicates that it has the Postscript SIMM installed (Macintosh version). You'll also want one with a LocalTalk or Ethernet or LocalTalk/Ethernet JetDirect card installed. The M models came with the JetDirect card but after so many years, who knows if they're still in the machine, so it's good to check.

Wow! Looks like that printer is still readily available on Ebay. They have quite a few listed. Well, that is good news. How does the printer connect to the computer?

Since they have a SCSI to IDE adapter, do they also have a SCSI to SATA adapter?

Your phrasing is a little confusing to me here. Just to be clear... The Mac does not have a SCSI to IDE adapter, but SCSI to IDE adapter do exist. I think the latter is what you meant.

Yes, that is what I meant.

You can install any size drive, but the OS can only address volumes up to 2 GB. So, e.g., if you install a 9 GB drive, partition it into four 2 GB volumes and one 1 GB volume or something similar. Later OSs raised this to some number of Terabytes (2?) but the SE/30 doesn't run OSs that new, I think.

Ok, so if I have a 20gig HD I can set it up in 10-2gig partitions (this is on an SE/30 now).

I have looked up that Macintosh repair book and boy oh boy the private listers on Amazon are sure scalping the book.

It's been out of print for a long time and it's a useful book to crazy people with old Macs. However, if you're patient, some times you can get a deal on it. I have bought some of Pina's books for around $10, but I already had the first two titles I listed from when they were in print. It used to be that the Ebay prices were high and the Amazon prices affordable. I guess Amazon caught up.

Yeah, I would have to wait for a deal on it as I can't see spending that much on the book. Besides I am sure much of the info is on the internet anyway.

No. That is for an *LC* PDS slot.

Really? Then what does the board like like that I SHOULD be looking for.

Thanx,

Geo

 

[aftermac]

Geo,

Glad to see you're getting some questions answered!

Speaking of writing software. Dos systems usually had a simple programming langauge called "BASIC". Did the Mac have something similar?

The Mac didn't come with any kind of programming language, but there are a number of them available: Microsoft QuickBASIC, zBASIC, FutureBASIC, various pascal and C development suites. Many, many options.

I am assuming this is like a special piece of software?

Mode32 is a piece of software you install to enable 32-Bit addressing.

So then it probably would be best to find out what version of the MAC OS started using TCP/IP. I would assume then if the Mac computer had that capability then it should be able to communicate (share files) with a Windows machine?

I believe you need 7.5.5 for TCP/IP printing. That is the last version of MacOS that will run on the SE/30.

Hmmm, no not really. If I have a monochrome display, it would be safe to say that a monochrome printer would be fine .

LOL!

Wow! Looks like that printer is still readily available on Ebay. They have quite a few listed. Well, that is good news. How does the printer connect to the computer?

Macintosh 8-Pin localtalk serial cable.

Ok, so if I have a 20gig HD I can set it up in 10-2gig partitions (this is on an SE/30 now).

In theory.

 

[jukingeo]

Geo,
Glad to see you're getting some questions answered!

Hello Aftermac,

Yeah, the guys here are a big help. I been mostly asking technical questions about what could be a potentially easy fix for the many Macs that I see listed on either Ebay or Craigslist. Usually I could probably snatch up an SE/30 for a good price that way. It seems that the SE/30 is harder to find than the next contender on my list which is the Classic II. The trouble is that if I go that route, I will not have the ability to go on-line. I would also be stuck going the serial printer route rather than using a network printer which I already have. So, yeah, having that network card would be nice and the Classic II doesn't have that capability. By any chance did Mac have a peripheral that hooked up to the serial port and provided an ethernet connection so one could access the internet that way?

The Mac didn't come with any kind of programming language, but there are a number of them available: Microsoft QuickBASIC, zBASIC, FutureBASIC, various pascal and C development suites. Many, many options.

Really? If the Mac didn't have a programming language then how was it programmed? But all those versions of Basic will work on the Mac? How well do these BASIC programs handle port access. One of the things I like to do is computer control and that is probably one of the PRIMARY reasons I want a small computer. I would like to use the computer to run automated light shows and basically overall automated control. To put things into a larger perspective, I been thinking about using the Mac to automate props for a haunted house project I am working on. Things like that, that is what I would mainly like to do. Games also, can't forget about the games!

Mode32 is a piece of software you install to enable 32-Bit addressing.

I am assuming this is easily attainable on-line? (meaning I can put it on a 1.44m floppy from my PC and then put it in the Mac)?

I believe you need 7.5.5 for TCP/IP printing. That is the last version of MacOS that will run on the SE/30.

Yes, I found that out this morning as well. Supposedly you do need some other dependent programs for it to work though, as the TCP/IP is kind of 'rough' on that version of the Mac OS. While 7.6 was better, it unfortunately needs true 32 bit.

As I said above...is there a way to get onto the internet via a serial to ethernet hookup? Would that make things easier? If so then it could open up the door to the Classic II since that computer doesn't have the capability for a network expansion card.

Wow! Looks like that printer is still readily available on Ebay. They have quite a few listed. Well, that is good news. How does the printer connect to the computer?

Macintosh 8-Pin localtalk serial cable.

Oh, Ok, so this printer will then hook up directly to the Mac.

Ok, so if I have a 20gig HD I can set it up in 10-2gig partitions (this is on an SE/30 now).

In theory.

So you don't know for sure if there is a limit on the upper end. Well, the good thing is that I know I do have a 3 gig and a 6gig drive and I know those drives are useless for my Windows XP & Linux projects.

Oh! almost forgot...very important...what is the tell - tale description of an early Mac that the computer is working, but the hard drive is bad? Perhaps I might be better off finding one like this than one with a bad display.

Edit:

I did a bit more digging and I read that if you change the processor in an SE/30 to a 68040 then the computer can handle up to Mac OS 8.1. I am not sure if that would benefit for TCP/IP connections but I would have my reservations about issues with a color OS running on a B&W monitor. But with that change supposedly that is the last version of the Mac OS that would run on the SE/30. Would a processor change be difficult?

Thanx,

Geo

 

[trag]

Really? If the Mac didn't have a programming language then how was it programmed?

I believe the original development system for the Mac was in Pascal, but the very first may have been 68000 assembly language.

I would like to use the computer to run automated light shows and basically overall automated control. To put things into a larger perspective, I been thinking about using the Mac to automate props for a haunted house project I am working on.

Have you considered using a microcontroller system? Some of the Freescale 9S12 development boards are very nice.

http://www.technologicalarts.ca/catalog/index.php?cPath=50&osCsid=623a6ebbcf863be1fabe316d5ee7b4d7

As I said above...is there a way to get onto the internet via a serial to ethernet hookup? Would that make things easier? If so then it could open up the door to the Classic II since that computer doesn't have the capability for a network expansion card.

There are SCSI to ethernet adapters. I forgot to mention those. They're usually slower than a PDS ethernet card. I'm not sure one would be any less expensive than a PDS ethernet card. As far as I know there was no serial to ethernet adapter, but the LocalTalk to Ethernet bridges I mentioned in an earlier post are effectively the same thing. They connect to the serial port (when it is configured as a LocalTalk port) and translate LocalTalk packets to ethernet. Unfortunately, I don't think they translate TCP/IP, although I think there are some bridges that will.

Oh, Ok, so this printer will then hook up directly to the Mac.

The specs for the LaserJet 4 says it has an RS-422 port

http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?objectID=bpl02076&locale=en_US&taskId=101&prodSeriesId=25487&prodTypeId=18972

I'm not sure if that port is a mini-DIN8 or a DB9. It really is nice to get one with a JetDirect card. I think the HP LaserJet 2100 also supports the older Macs. Ah, yes, the 2100 has a LocalTalk port built in and one can add ethernet via the EIO slot.

http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?objectID=bpl06416&locale=en_US&prodSeriesId=25469&prodTypeId=18972#A1

The HP 2100 has the advantage of being a much newer model than the 4, 4 Plus and 5, but it is probably not as well built as those ancient work horses.

Oh! almost forgot...very important...what is the tell - tale description of an early Mac that the computer is working, but the hard drive is bad? Perhaps I might be better off finding one like this than one with a bad display.

The Mac boots nicely with a good "Bong" and the screen comes on, and it settles to a little icon of a floppy disk in the center of a gray screen with a flashing question mark in the middle of the disk icon. This comes up if there's no bootable disk connected. If there's a bootable floppy inserted then it will just boot from the floppy.

I did a bit more digging and I read that if you change the processor in an SE/30 to a 68040 then the computer can handle up to Mac OS 8.1. I am not sure if that would benefit for TCP/IP connections but I would have my reservations about issues with a color OS running on a B&W monitor. But with that change supposedly that is the last version of the Mac OS that would run on the SE/30. Would a processor change be difficult?

It's not a processor swap. It involves adding an accelerator card. The 68040 accelerator isn't horribly rare, but can be pricey. However, the SE/30 needs an adapter to connect the 68040 accelerator and that adapter for the sE/30 is rather rare and pricey.

 

[jukingeo]

I believe the original development system for the Mac was in Pascal, but the very first may have been 68000 assembly language.

So the original 68k Macs were programmed using Pascal? How is that in comparison to something like C+? Is it easy to learn?

I would like to use the computer to run automated light shows and basically overall automated control. To put things into a larger perspective, I been thinking about using the Mac to automate props for a haunted house project I am working on.

Have you considered using a microcontroller system?

Sure, I have Basic Stamps already, but Stamps are not without their problems. For one they are very limited and have small amount of memory capacity. A Basic Stamp would allow control over one prop (or lights)...maybe two at best. But a computer could easily do the entire project. No uploading needed either. With a hard drive, memory capacity is virtually endless. Besides considering that I want to mess around with a Compact Macintosh, this would be a good practical use for it.

There are SCSI to ethernet adapters. I forgot to mention those. They're usually slower than a PDS ethernet card. I'm not sure one would be any less expensive than a PDS ethernet card. As far as I know there was no serial to ethernet adapter, but the LocalTalk to Ethernet bridges I mentioned in an earlier post are effectively the same thing. They connect to the serial port (when it is configured as a LocalTalk port) and translate LocalTalk packets to ethernet. Unfortunately, I don't think they translate TCP/IP, although I think there are some bridges that will.

Yeah, I would need more info on LocalTalk and how that would apply to attempting to hook the computer up to today's internet.

Oh, Ok, so this printer will then hook up directly to the Mac.

The specs for the LaserJet 4 says it has an RS-422 port

http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?objectID=bpl02076&locale=en_US&taskId=101&prodSeriesId=25487&prodTypeId=18972

I'm not sure if that port is a mini-DIN8 or a DB9. It really is nice to get one with a JetDirect card. I think the HP LaserJet 2100 also supports the older Macs. Ah, yes, the 2100 has a LocalTalk port built in and one can add ethernet via the EIO slot.

Sooo, with this printer one could also get on the internet? LOL! Talk about killing two birds with one stone.

The HP 2100 has the advantage of being a much newer model than the 4, 4 Plus and 5, but it is probably not as well built as those ancient work horses.

Well, lets just say I wouldn't be going crazy with printing on the Mac, but if I do get it on-line, I might want to use it to go through and answer emails. Do some forum work (like I am doing now). Like I said, I seriously don't expect an older Mac to be able to do streaming audio and video work.

Oh! almost forgot...very important...what is the tell - tale description of an early Mac that the computer is working, but the hard drive is bad? Perhaps I might be better off finding one like this than one with a bad display.

The Mac boots nicely with a good "Bong" and the screen comes on, and it settles to a little icon of a floppy disk in the center of a gray screen with a flashing question mark in the middle of the disk icon. This comes up if there's no bootable disk connected. If there's a bootable floppy inserted then it will just boot from the floppy.

Ok, so in that case then the hard drive would be bad and it is asking for a bootable floppy.

It's not a processor swap. It involves adding an accelerator card. The 68040 accelerator isn't horribly rare, but can be pricey. However, the SE/30 needs an adapter to connect the 68040 accelerator and that adapter for the sE/30 is rather rare and pricey.

Ok, understood. Definitely NOT worth it. So then it would see that Mac OS 7.5.5 is the best I could do on an SE/30. The good thing is that OS DOES support the TCP/IP...so the internet is within my grasp with that machine.

Thanx,

Geo

 

[phreakout]

Geo,

To clarify some things:

- Mode32 is a System Extension file, meaning that it is like a .dll file under Windows. The file is designed to "patch" a Mac that was "crippled" with 24-bit addressing. The architecture is 32-bit, but for some reason, Apple released the model as 24-bit addressing. Without that Mode32, or equivalent, the Mac won't address anything higher than 8 megabytes of RAM. The system was addressing 24-bits and Mode32 patches in that missing 8 bits of code.

- There does exist a BASIC interpreter for the Mac called Chipmunk BASIC. It is compatible with QBASIC, QuickBASIC and Microsoft BASIC languages. It even includes a built-in conversion to Pascal and Assembly code languages, IIRC.

- Asante makes both a SCSI to Ethernet adapter and LocalTalk to Ethernet adapter. LocalTalk is the 8-pin jack(s) on the back of each Mac. You will need either adapter to translate Ethernet to an older Mac. You will be able to file share, Internet access and send documents to a printer on an ethernet network.

- You can use either the LocalTalk or SCSI ports to send and receive special hardware controls on projects. I'm not familiar with how exactly to do so on SCSI, but with LocalTalk, you'll be having better luck overall. The LocalTalk Modem port is a serial port (RS-422) and you'd be sending that type of level of control on the projects. I can assume that compatibility is more supported via serial verses SCSI.

- It's hard to say what largest SCSI drive you can use on an SE/30, but just remember that System software from 6 through 7.5.5 doesn't recognize HFS+ or HFS Extended partitions. That didn't become available until Mac OS 8.x. If you do put a rather big, several gigabytes sized drive inside, be sure to create each partition to have up to 2 gigabytes size. HFS only allows that to be the maximum size to natively support.

- If you do install 64 megabytes or more in your SE/30, be prepared to wait awhile for the RAM test on first power up to finish. This is only when you power on the Mac from a cold boot.

- Some model printers may need to support AppleTalk as well as PostScript to work with Macs on a network.

73s de Phreakout. :rambo:

 

[jruschme]

As far as I know there was no serial to ethernet adapter, but the LocalTalk to Ethernet bridges I mentioned in an earlier post are effectively the same thing.

Actually, there were serial-to-ethernet adapters. I'm aware of two- the Farallon EtherWave Mac/PB adapter and a similar one from Dayna.

Basically, you plugged it into the serial port and loaded a driver. IIRC, they usually only worked with classic networking (not OpenTransport). The Farallon could also work in a "default" mode as a LocalTalk bridge.

I use to use one of the Farallon adapters with a Duo 230. It was okay, albeit a bit slow.

John

 

[aftermac]

As far as I know there was no serial to ethernet adapter, but the LocalTalk to Ethernet bridges I mentioned in an earlier post are effectively the same thing.

Actually, there were serial-to-ethernet adapters. I'm aware of two- the Farallon EtherWave Mac/PB adapter and a similar one from Dayna.

Basically, you plugged it into the serial port and loaded a driver. IIRC, they usually only worked with classic networking (not OpenTransport). The Farallon could also work in a "default" mode as a LocalTalk bridge.

I use to use one of the Farallon adapters with a Duo 230. It was okay, albeit a bit slow.

John

I'm pretty sure to use IP networking (OpenTransport) over the serial port you would need to have an AppleShare IP server setup, or a MacIP router like a Cayman Gatorbox. I have both a Gatorbox and an Asante EN/SC SCSI to Ethernet adapter. For a single computer the SCSI to Ethernet adapter is probably the easier setup. Obviously, the best option is to have ethernet card in the SE PDS slot.

Do some forum work (like I am doing now).

Even that may be ambitious. A lot of sites (I'll throw out AtariAge as an example ) will be totally unusable.

Ok, so in that case then the hard drive would be bad and it is asking for a bootable floppy.

Or, there is no HD, or there is no OS installed on the HD, or the HD cable is unplugged... you get the idea.

 

[jukingeo]

Geo,
To clarify some things:

- Mode32 is a System Extension file, meaning that it is like a .dll file under Windows. The file is designed to "patch" a Mac that was "crippled" with 24-bit addressing. The architecture is 32-bit, but for some reason, Apple released the model as 24-bit addressing. Without that Mode32, or equivalent, the Mac won't address anything higher than 8 megabytes of RAM. The system was addressing 24-bits and Mode32 patches in that missing 8 bits of code.

Ok, gotcha. So once I get a SE/30 or Classic II, I should look to see if "Mode32" is on the system? Where would I get it if it doesn't have it?

There does exist a BASIC interpreter for the Mac called Chipmunk BASIC. It is compatible with QBASIC, QuickBASIC and Microsoft BASIC languages. It even includes a built-in conversion to Pascal and Assembly code languages, IIRC.

I came across this version of Basic this afternoon, but didn't get too far into my readings. I wanted to see what the commands looked like that would access the serial port.

- Asante makes both a SCSI to Ethernet adapter and LocalTalk to Ethernet adapter. LocalTalk is the 8-pin jack(s) on the back of each Mac. You will need either adapter to translate Ethernet to an older Mac. You will be able to file share, Internet access and send documents to a printer on an ethernet network.

Now in terms of the file sharing I SHOULD be able to do that even if my other PC's are Windows right?

- You can use either the LocalTalk or SCSI ports to send and receive special hardware controls on projects. I'm not familiar with how exactly to do so on SCSI, but with LocalTalk, you'll be having better luck overall. The LocalTalk Modem port is a serial port (RS-422) and you'd be sending that type of level of control on the projects. I can assume that compatibility is more supported via serial verses SCSI.

Is the Local Talk port any different from the two serial ports on the back of the machine? At any rate, most of the serial interfaces I have worked with with the PC were RS-232 and for MOST applications, it was fast enough. From what I been reading, RS-422 is even faster...so I might not even need to use the SCSI port.

- It's hard to say what largest SCSI drive you can use on an SE/30, but just remember that System software from 6 through 7.5.5 doesn't recognize HFS+ or HFS Extended partitions. That didn't become available until Mac OS 8.x. If you do put a rather big, several gigabytes sized drive inside, be sure to create each partition to have up to 2 gigabytes size. HFS only allows that to be the maximum size to natively support.

Yes, that point was made very clear to me early on when I was suggesting the use of an IDE drive with converter in the event that I get a Mac that has a bad hard drive. I know that I have an old 3 (or 6)gig drive laying around and while that is small for my PC needs, it is rather massive in regards to the Macs we are talking about.

- If you do install 64 megabytes or more in your SE/30, be prepared to wait awhile for the RAM test on first power up to finish. This is only when you power on the Mac from a cold boot.

For the most part I really only intend to go to about 32meg. Most of these machines scoot along nicely with 4meg, so 32 should be PLENTY.

- Some model printers may need to support AppleTalk as well as PostScript to work with Macs on a network.

73s de Phreakout. :rambo:

Ok, it does seem that my best bet is the LaserJet 4 printer that was mentioned.

Actually, there were serial-to-ethernet adapters. I'm aware of two- the Farallon EtherWave Mac/PB adapter and a similar one from Dayna.

Good to know, but obviously they are no longer made, right? So I probably would have to track one down.

I use to use one of the Farallon adapters with a Duo 230. It was okay, albeit a bit slow.

I'm pretty sure to use IP networking (OpenTransport) over the serial port you would need to have an AppleShare IP server setup, or a MacIP router like a Cayman Gatorbox. I have both a Gatorbox and an Asante EN/SC SCSI to Ethernet adapter. For a single computer the SCSI to Ethernet adapter is probably the easier setup. Obviously, the best option is to have ethernet card in the SE PDS slot.

Yes, the PDS slot would be the best way to go in the case of the SE/30, but if I should end up with a Classic II, which doesn't have the port, I would like to know if its possible to hook it up to the internet by 'external' means. So you are saying that I should rather go the way of SCSI for the ethernet connection rather than the serial port? I don't think I ever saw a SCSI to Ethernet adapter, but then again, I never did much work with SCSI before.

Do some forum work (like I am doing now).

Even that may be ambitious. A lot of sites (I'll throw out AtariAge as an example ) will be totally unusable.

Ok, so what would I be able to do on the internet?

Ok, so in that case then the hard drive would be bad and it is asking for a bootable floppy.

Or, there is no HD, or there is no OS installed on the HD, or the HD cable is unplugged... you get the idea.

Yup, gotcha, but I would be (of course) referring to a worst case scenario in that I find a machine that has a 'bad' HD in that I COULD replace the drive.

Now...next (but slightly off topic) question guys. MIDI. This is something that the Mac was famous for and I do believe that these older Macs could handle that, correct? If so then I would again need some kind of adapter. What programs were made for the 68k Macs that could do MIDI work?

Thanx,

Geo

 

[MidnightCommando]

Geo,
To clarify some things:

- Mode32 is a System Extension file, meaning that it is like a .dll file under Windows. The file is designed to "patch" a Mac that was "crippled" with 24-bit addressing. The architecture is 32-bit, but for some reason, Apple released the model as 24-bit addressing. Without that Mode32, or equivalent, the Mac won't address anything higher than 8 megabytes of RAM. The system was addressing 24-bits and Mode32 patches in that missing 8 bits of code.

Ok, gotcha. So once I get a SE/30 or Classic II, I should look to see if "Mode32" is on the system? Where would I get it if it doesn't have it?

Yes and no.

Once you get an SE/30, you'll definitely want Mode32. However, a Classic II only supports 10MB of physical memory (the 2MB on the board + 2 4MB SIMMs) so Mode32 is superfluous for that machine.

If you go the Classic II route, I don't advise trying your luck with System 7.5 - use 7.1 or 6.0.8L or you'll just be torturing yourself.

 

[phreakout]

Geo,
To clarify some things:

- Mode32 is a System Extension file, meaning that it is like a .dll file under Windows. The file is designed to "patch" a Mac that was "crippled" with 24-bit addressing. The architecture is 32-bit, but for some reason, Apple released the model as 24-bit addressing. Without that Mode32, or equivalent, the Mac won't address anything higher than 8 megabytes of RAM. The system was addressing 24-bits and Mode32 patches in that missing 8 bits of code.

Ok, gotcha. So once I get a SE/30 or Classic II, I should look to see if "Mode32" is on the system? Where would I get it if it doesn't have it?

You'll need to look within the Extensions Folder inside the System Folder of the hard drive. If it's not listed there, you can download it free from The pickle's Low-End Mac website, System 6 Heaven, and Apple Inc.'s Old Software List (look for the file, "32-bit System Enabler"). Download the file, expand it using Stuffit Expander and place the expanded file into the Extensions Folder inside the System Folder of the hard drive.

- Asante makes both a SCSI to Ethernet adapter and LocalTalk to Ethernet adapter. LocalTalk is the 8-pin jack(s) on the back of each Mac. You will need either adapter to translate Ethernet to an older Mac. You will be able to file share, Internet access and send documents to a printer on an ethernet network.

Now in terms of the file sharing I SHOULD be able to do that even if my other PC's are Windows right?

Well, you'll have the hardware connectivity taken care of, but now you need to make sure that the right System Extensions are installed for networking on your Mac. More pressing, Windows, with exception to Windows NT 3.xx and 4, doesn't translate the Macintosh platform on a Windows machine. So in order for you to see a Mac on the Windows desktop, you'll need to get a software that will do that for System 7.x.x. Timbuktu Pro for Mac and Windows comes to mind (I have the Mac version at home, if you need it) or Windows 3.x.x/4.x.x. Before I go further, I'm talking about file-sharing across your home network, not Internet. Windows uses samba as a means to communicate across local ethernet networks; Macs before OS X use AppleTalk, a totally different language. You'd need to either make all your Macs support samba or all your Windows machines support AppleTalk. Another easier way might be to set up an ftp server and use an ftp software to send and receive files back and forth.

- You can use either the LocalTalk or SCSI ports to send and receive special hardware controls on projects. I'm not familiar with how exactly to do so on SCSI, but with LocalTalk, you'll be having better luck overall. The LocalTalk Modem port is a serial port (RS-422) and you'd be sending that type of level of control on the projects. I can assume that compatibility is more supported via serial verses SCSI.

Is the Local Talk port any different from the two serial ports on the back of the machine? At any rate, most of the serial interfaces I have worked with with the PC were RS-232 and for MOST applications, it was fast enough. From what I been reading, RS-422 is even faster...so I might not even need to use the SCSI port.

Both 8-pin serial ports on the back ARE LocalTalk. Apple just named one of them the Modem port and the other Printer port, since they figured most users will use them for THOSE purposes. As said before, the serial/LocalTalk/RS-422 ports are fully compatible with RS-232 standards. SCSI, is a bit faster since it supports up to 1.5 megabytes per second. It has to in order for external SCSI devices to transfer quickly, especially if you have an external SCSI hard drive.

Now...next (but slightly off topic) question guys. MIDI. This is something that the Mac was famous for and I do believe that these older Macs could handle that, correct? If so then I would again need some kind of adapter. What programs were made for the 68k Macs that could do MIDI work?
Thanx,

Geo

As far as MIDI goes, get in contact with 68KMLA forum member ditabeardmemo. He has already been doing this on classic Macs for a while. He can provide you some good advice on what to do and how to set it up.

73s de Phreakout. :rambo:

 

[jukingeo]

Once you get an SE/30, you'll definitely want Mode32. However, a Classic II only supports 10MB of physical memory (the 2MB on the board + 2 4MB SIMMs) so Mode32 is superfluous for that machine.

If you go the Classic II route, I don't advise trying your luck with System 7.5 - use 7.1 or 6.0.8L or you'll just be torturing yourself.

Oh, of course...sorry, that my shortsightedness in listing it with the SE/30 when talking about Mode32. The thing is that I am also looking at the Classic II in the event I have trouble finding a decent SE/30. The Classic II really can't go on-line anyway because of the lack of the expansion port for the ethernet card. In addition I don't know how good the TCP/IP is on the really early versions of System 7.0 (if it was supported on the earlier versions). Pretty much if I end up the Classic II route, I know I am probably not going to go on the internet. But with the SE/30 it sure does look like a good possibility.

You'll need to look within the Extensions Folder inside the System Folder of the hard drive. If it's not listed there, you can download it free from The pickle's Low-End Mac website, System 6 Heaven, and Apple Inc.'s Old Software List (look for the file, "32-bit System Enabler"). Download the file, expand it using Stuffit Expander and place the expanded file into the Extensions Folder inside the System Folder of the hard drive.

Ok, (making a note of this now).

Now in terms of the file sharing I SHOULD be able to do that even if my other PC's are Windows right?

Well, you'll have the hardware connectivity taken care of, but now you need to make sure that the right System Extensions are installed for networking on your Mac. More pressing, Windows, with exception to Windows NT 3.xx and 4, doesn't translate the Macintosh platform on a Windows machine. So in order for you to see a Mac on the Windows desktop, you'll need to get a software that will do that for System 7.x.x. Timbuktu Pro for Mac and Windows comes to mind (I have the Mac version at home, if you need it) or Windows 3.x.x/4.x.x. Before I go further, I'm talking about file-sharing across your home network, not Internet. Windows uses samba as a means to communicate across local ethernet networks; Macs before OS X use AppleTalk, a totally different language. You'd need to either make all your Macs support samba or all your Windows machines support AppleTalk. Another easier way might be to set up an ftp server and use an ftp software to send and receive files back and forth.

Yeah, basically I would be looking to share files between machines, NOT run programs. I know that probably will not be possible. Ok, so it sounds like setting up an FTP server would be the best route to go for file sharing. How would I do that? This is something I would like to know how to do because I am right now also converting Xbox's and need to do some FTP work for file sharing as well. Thus I can kill two birds with one stone!

Both 8-pin serial ports on the back ARE LocalTalk. Apple just named one of them the Modem port and the other Printer port, since they figured most users will use them for THOSE purposes.

Ahhhh, Ok, so they are the same thing then. So then the port labeling really doesn't have that 'fixed' designation, both ports are then serial RS-422 ports.

As said before, the serial/LocalTalk/RS-422 ports are fully compatible with RS-232 standards.

Can I build a standard interface using parts from RS-422 and RS-232 cables? Usually the controllers I deal with have DB9 connectors and I am wondering if a conversion would be as easy as just making an adapter/wire.

SCSI, is a bit faster since it supports up to 1.5 megabytes per second. It has to in order for external SCSI devices to transfer quickly, especially if you have an external SCSI hard drive.

I don't think I would be interested in a SCSI external hard drive at the moment, BUT what might interest me is a SCSI CD rom. Then I could burn disks for the Mac.

As far as MIDI goes, get in contact with 68KMLA forum member ditabeardmemo. He has already been doing this on classic Macs for a while. He can provide you some good advice on what to do and how to set it up.

73s de Phreakout. :rambo:

Sounds great! I will see if I can PM him.

Thanx,

Geo

 

[phreakout]

Once you get an SE/30, you'll definitely want Mode32. However, a Classic II only supports 10MB of physical memory (the 2MB on the board + 2 4MB SIMMs) so Mode32 is superfluous for that machine.

If you go the Classic II route, I don't advise trying your luck with System 7.5 - use 7.1 or 6.0.8L or you'll just be torturing yourself.

Oh, of course...sorry, that my shortsightedness in listing it with the SE/30 when talking about Mode32. The thing is that I am also looking at the Classic II in the event I have trouble finding a decent SE/30. The Classic II really can't go on-line anyway because of the lack of the expansion port for the ethernet card. In addition I don't know how good the TCP/IP is on the really early versions of System 7.0 (if it was supported on the earlier versions). Pretty much if I end up the Classic II route, I know I am probably not going to go on the internet. But with the SE/30 it sure does look like a good possibility.

Try to stick with the SE/30, if you can, only because of the expansion possibilities. When Apple introduced the Mac Classic I and Mac Classic II, they actually took a step backwards and made the machines slower than the previous models before them. Apple built the Classic II to replace the SE/30 at the time and the Classic I to replace both the SE and the Machintosh Plus.

Quoted from MacWorld's Mac Secrets, 5th Edition by David Pogue and Joseph Schorr:

-"The SE shares the Plus’s compact design and 68000 microprocessor, although it runs 15 to 20 percent faster than the Plus."

-"(Macintosh Classic) After releasing increasingly faster and more powerful computers for several years, Apple released a cheaper, more basic compact Classic model, based on the slower 68000 microprocessor, in October 1990. Why this step backward? Apple was attempting to create a truly competitively priced computer, one that would be especially attractive to new users. The stripped-down Classic without a hard drive listed for about $1,000—a new low in complete-Mac-system pricing that would stand unchallenged for nearly a decade.

-"(Macintosh Classic II (Performa 200)) The Classic II is newer than the SE/30, which it replaced in October 1991. To the chagrin of Mac users who loved the SE/30, however, the Classic II handles most processing jobs about 30 percent slower,even though it’s equipped with the same microprocessor. What accounts for the difference? The data path. The Classic II is equipped with only a 16-bit data path between the ’030 processor and the RAM chips, whereas the SE/30 provides a 32-bit data path. In other words, the Classic II can move only half as much data at one time between the computer’s memory and central processor as the SE/30.

When the Classic II was released, it cost about $1,000 less than an SE/30 (which at the time was selling for more than $3,000), making it a good deal despite the slower speed.

Now in terms of the file sharing I SHOULD be able to do that even if my other PC's are Windows right?

Well, you'll have the hardware connectivity taken care of, but now you need to make sure that the right System Extensions are installed for networking on your Mac. More pressing, Windows, with exception to Windows NT 3.xx and 4, doesn't translate the Macintosh platform on a Windows machine. So in order for you to see a Mac on the Windows desktop, you'll need to get a software that will do that for System 7.x.x. Timbuktu Pro for Mac and Windows comes to mind (I have the Mac version at home, if you need it) or Windows 3.x.x/4.x.x. Before I go further, I'm talking about file-sharing across your home network, not Internet. Windows uses samba as a means to communicate across local ethernet networks; Macs before OS X use AppleTalk, a totally different language. You'd need to either make all your Macs support samba or all your Windows machines support AppleTalk. Another easier way might be to set up an ftp server and use an ftp software to send and receive files back and forth.

Yeah, basically I would be looking to share files between machines, NOT run programs. I know that probably will not be possible. Ok, so it sounds like setting up an FTP server would be the best route to go for file sharing. How would I do that? This is something I would like to know how to do because I am right now also converting Xbox's and need to do some FTP work for file sharing as well. Thus I can kill two birds with one stone!

This excerpt taken from MWMS, 5th Edition:
Cross-Platform Networking

For communications with PCs, nothing beats a network. You can share files, send e-mail, share printers, and do a host of other activities by sending electrons over thin cables. The biggest cross-platform network on earth, of course, is the Internet. It connects Mac, Windows, UNIX, and other kinds of computers throughout the world, 24 hours a day. Not only that, but the servers—the computers that host Web sites, distribute e-mail, and serve files via FTP—are a mix of UNIX, Windows NT, and (in surprisingly large numbers) Macs. You can’t tell which operating system is running a particular Web site—and as far as you, the Web surfer, are concerned, it doesn’t matter.

The local networks in an office or school are similar in principle to the Internet, and sometime even use the same technology. Most often, Macs and PCs are connected by Ethernet wiring; Ethernet is a cross-platform cabling standard. But although the wiring is the same, the software is different. Macs sometimes get barred from the network fun by network software products that don’t support the Mac. Fortunately, persistence and a little knowledge is all you need to connect to such Windows-only networking schemes.

A Protocol Primer

To get two computers communicating, either for file-sharing, e-mail, or any other task, they have to use the same set of protocols. You can think of protocols as rules of the road—stop on red, go with green—that computers obey when sending data over wires. It doesn’t matter if the computers are Macs, Windows, or UNIX; as long as they’re communicating using the same protocols, they’ll understand each other. If you really want to get your Mac talking to Windows machines, you’ll have to delve into the tech-speak of protocol-ese; here goes.

Protocols come in what you might call layers. At the bottom layer are basic transport protocols that establish communications. On top of that are protocols that provide services—file servers, e-mail service, Web service, remote access service, and so on. Ethernet wires can carry multiple protocols at the same time—which is fortunate, because today’s computers often use different protocols for different tasks. Your Mac might send AppleTalk signals to print, and TCP/IP signals to access the Internet. All that’s necessary for Macs and PCs to communicate is that they speak the same protocols. Here are the most basic transport protocols used today:

■AppleTalk: AppleTalk has been a standard Mac networking protocol since 1984. AppleTalk is the language spoken by network printers; it’s also the protocol used for the Mac’s built-in File Sharing feature (again, see Chapter 35). PCs normally don’t speak AppleTalk—unless you equip them with add-on software.

■TCP/IP: TCP/IP is the most widely used set of protocols in the world—it’s the language of the Internet, and is becoming more and more common on local networks as well. Mac OS, Windows 95, Windows 98, and Windows NT all come with TCP/IP software.

■IPX/SPX: This technical-sounding item is Novell’s set of protocols for its NetWare networking system. Although Novell’s products and customers have been moving towards TCP/IP, the world’s offices are still filled with IPX networks. Macs can participate on NetWare IPX networks using a software kit from Novell called NetWare Client for Macintosh software, which includes a control panel called MacIPX.

■NETBEUI: A common IBM protocol used in DOS and Windows for small networks, NETBEUI was used in such networking products as Microsoft LAN Manager, Windows for Workgroups, IBM PCLAN and LAN Server. If this is what your office uses, you’re out of luck—no software lets Macs communicate via NETBEUI.

Putting PCs on a Mac Network

When adding a few PCs to a mostly-Mac network, it makes the most sense to adopt the PCs to your network rather than the other way around. This usually means adding the AppleTalk protocol to the PCs. You can do this with one of two products for Windows: PC MacLAN (from Miramar) or COPSTalk (from Cops). Both let Windows access Macs that have File Sharing turned on, plus dedicated Mac AppleShare servers. PC MacLAN, in fact, even lets Macs access the Windows machines. PCs running either PC MacLAN or COPSTalk can print to Mac Postscript printers on the AppleTalk network, and Macs can print to any Postscript printers connected to the Windows PCs.

Using an AppleTalk product for a cross-platform network also makes sense if you’re connecting a few Macs and a few PCs together, and your background is mostly Macintosh. Because AppleTalk is a plug-and-play, self-configuring protocol, it’s easier to set up and run PC MacLAN or COPSTalk than to tangle with the products discussed in the next section.

Macs on PC networks

AppleTalk doesn’t make much sense when you want to add Macs to an established PC network. Nor does adding software to a Windows NT server, when it’s just a few Macs in a mostly Windows environment. Instead, you should adapt the Macs by installing special software on them. DAVE (from Thursby) is software that adds a Mac to a Microsoft network using the TCP/IP protocol. Macs thus equipped can log onto standard Windows NT “domains.” To the Mac user, PCs with Microsoft file sharing turned on become visible in the Chooser; you select and log on to them just as you would on a standard Mac AppleTalk network.

DAVE also lets the Macs share their hard drives with the PCs on the network. The PC users can log onto DAVE-equipped Macs just as they would ordinarily log onto other Windows machines. Configuring DAVE on the Mac is usually more complex than Mac networking; some knowledge of PC networking is very helpful. So is Thursby’s manual, which walks you through the set-up procedure. If the existing PC network runs the Novell NetWare networking system, you can add your Mac to the network by installing NetWare Client for Macintosh (or its more recent incarnation, IntranetWare Client for Mac OS). The Macs can use either the Novell IPX protocol or TCP/IP; the client doesn’t interfere with normal AppleTalk functions. For example, you can log into the network server through IPX, browse the Internet using TCP/IP, and print using

AppleTalk. The Novell client software lets your Mac access the Novell Directory Services (NDS) to log into file servers and printer functions.

Connecting to Windows NT Server

Windows NT Server, yet another common Windows-based networking software kit, comes with software called Windows NT Services for Macintosh (SFM). (Although SFM comes on the Windows NT Server CD-ROMs, it must be installed and configured separately.)

Like PC MacLAN, SFM installs on the NT Server, and gives Macs access to the server using AppleTalk. Once you’re hooked up this way, you log onto the NT server through the Chooser, just as you would on an all-Mac system. Unlike PC MacLAN, the SFM file service is one-way—Windows PCs can’t access the Macs on the network.

Macs also use the printers connected to Windows NT servers—sort of. If the printer is not a Postscript printer, then Macs can only print in black and white and at 300 dpi—even if the printer supports color and higher resolutions. On the other hand, SFM has the Microsoft logo on it, which makes it attractive to many of the people who run the networks in today’s companies.

Both 8-pin serial ports on the back ARE LocalTalk. Apple just named one of them the Modem port and the other Printer port, since they figured most users will use them for THOSE purposes.

Ahhhh, Ok, so they are the same thing then. So then the port labeling really doesn't have that 'fixed' designation, both ports are then serial RS-422 ports.

Just remember that the Printer Port is more designated for AppleTalk networking than the Modem Port; this is how Apple has standardized their way of hardware design as far as networking goes.

As said before, the serial/LocalTalk/RS-422 ports are fully compatible with RS-232 standards.

Can I build a standard interface using parts from RS-422 and RS-232 cables? Usually the controllers I deal with have DB9 connectors and I am wondering if a conversion would be as easy as just making an adapter/wire.

Short answer, yes you can. Just make sure you connect the correct wires between the DB9 and Apple's 8-pin DIN plug.

SCSI, is a bit faster since it supports up to 1.5 megabytes per second. It has to in order for external SCSI devices to transfer quickly, especially if you have an external SCSI hard drive.

I don't think I would be interested in a SCSI external hard drive at the moment, BUT what might interest me is a SCSI CD rom. Then I could burn disks for the Mac.

Um, I don't think you can burn CDs under System 6 or 7. Oh, wait. You're talking about using an external SCSI CD-ROM device. Oh, okay. Then, in that case, yes you can. All I can say is good luck trying to burn a CD that's formatted for System 6 or 7 using a Windows machine.

73s de Phreakout. :rambo: