New Mac Plus

[ryan55]

I just got a mac plus today. When i bought it I didn't think it would be as stuck as i am now. It was only the computer, nothing else, no system disks, keyboard, mouse, hard drive, or even power cable. So i've started it up and the screen looks good, but naturally without any disks, i only get the "insert disk" icon. When i bought the computer, i didn't know that macs had their own way of formating DD floppies. So to the point, i have a few questions.

Trying to come up with a workaround for these problems, i considered using either a scsi or floppy bus 5.25" floppy drive on the Plus. Is that even possible and if yes could i make mac disks on a pc? According to something i read, (i've been doing a lot of that since i bought the machine) you can make mac 1.4mb floppies in windows, which is useless for me, but could i make mac formated 5.25" floppies in windows?

Looking at the pinouts for the keyboard, it looks to have the same pins as a modern ps/2 keyboard. If i made a cable that converted the ps/2 cable to the phone jack type thing the mac has, would it work? Has anyone done this here? to do this would i just have to solder the right wires together like a normal electric wire?

Any ideas what to do for a mouse?

Finally any ideas for an easy to find hard drive solution?

I could really use a hand here, everywhere i look i seem to find contradictory information and i hope you people know whats what. [] ]'> I'll post some pictures too if anyone is interested.

Ryan55

 

[LCGuy]

Do not plug a 5.25" floppy drive into that computer. Any 5.25" floppy drive you get that plugs into the floppy port will be an Apple II drive, and is not compatible, and if anything will actually destroy the Mac's Floppy drive bus.

Unfortunately, getting files directly from a modern PC to the Plus is going to be very difficult. Do you have access to either a newer old Mac (that is, a Beige Mac with SCSI that can read 800k floppies, but is new enough to also read 1.4MB floppies or access a network?) or a PC with a 50 pin SCSI bus?

The keyboard is a proprietary interface, it'll be very difficult to get any other keyboard working on there sadly. The good news though is that any keyboard you get from any 128k, 512k, 512ke or Plus will work no problem. Its pretty much impossible to get a PS/2 keyboard to work. Also, please note that while the cable used for these keyboards looks similar to a phone cable, it is actually very different, with the Mac reversing the polarity, meaning that use of a standard unmodified phone cable can fry the keyboard, the Mac, or both.

Tom Lee notes in his wonderful Classic Mac PDF that old IBM PC Bus (NOT serial) mice are pretty much identical internally to the Classic Mac mice, and that all they need to work is a DB-9 plug installed in place of the DIN-9 plug.

As for the HDD situation, I'm proposing, maybe if you make a generous enough offer, someone here might be able to load up an external HDD with an OS and some software and mail it to you?

Best of luck!

 

[istar1018]

I can't answer all of your questions.... but I can help with some of them.

As far as the disks, you are right. Pluses and other old Macs format DD disks to 800K using a method that is incompatible with that of DOS / Windows PCs. However, Macs don't use 5.25" floppies, except in rare cases (Apple sold a PC 5.25" floppy drive, and some Apple II drives work with an Apple IIe drive). Thus, this doesn't really help you. To make 800K floppies you need a newer Mac with a HD floppy drive. These drives are backwards compatible with the older 800K disks and can read / write them in a snap.

Alternatively, you may wish to invest in a SCSI Zip drive. A search of these forums will turn up a few threads in which they are used in lieu of floppies on these older Macs. When combined with a PC Zip drive, you should be able to transfer files no problem.

Hard drives should be easy to deal with. The Plus uses SCSI, so take a SCSI hard drive, put it in an external case, and you'll be off to the races. Older Apple ROMed drives are good, because they'll work with Apple's formatting software, but Third-Party utilities can handle most of the rest.

Hopefully others more knowledgeable than I can answer your questions about the keyboard and mouse. I'm personally unaware of anyone who's used a PC or an ADB keyboard with a Plus or earlier machine... but that's not to say it hasn't happened (but I don't think it has).

 

[Mac128]

Buy a system floppy disk to get started, it will just be easier. See this thread for details: http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8422

Check out this forum for links to eBay auctions to get what you need. It's cheap enough to pick up a the proper keyboard and mouse. Actually, all you need is a mouse if you need to piecemeal the purchases. http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8706

Hard drives are a little more complicated, but you need to get the Plus up and running before you can add a hard disk driver to your startup disk, unless you receive a hard disk already formatted for the Plus.

 

[ryan55]

Thanks for all the info. Just 2 more questions right now. I've been reading stuff about using a cf card as a hard drive, and i got a 256mb cf card in my old camera i don't use anymore. Would that be a viable solution to this?

Finally, if i were to look for a "bridge" computer that can do both the 1.4meg and 800k floppies. I'd imagine the'd continue to support the old disks for a while after HD's came out, but does anyone know when they stoped supporting the 800k disks.

I'm kicking myself now, because i had a performa that i gave away about a year or so ago that probably could have done that (or at least i assume, it shipped with os6 if i remember correctly)

You have all been so helpful. Thanks a lot.

Ryan55

 

[istar1018]

Yep, you sure can use that CF card. You'll need a SCSI-IDE adaptor and an IDE-CF adaptor. I've had good luck with those made by ACARD (model 7720). Be aware that while the IDE-CF adaptors are cheap, the SCSI-IDE adaptors tend to be pricey.

All Macs with 1.44mb SuperDrives can act as your bridge Mac. That means anything from the SE/30 and IIx (yes, some SEs had SuperDrives, as did some Mac IIs, but to spare yourself confusion, avoid these models unless you are certain they contain a HD floppy, as some shipped with the older 800K drives) through the *beige* Power Mac G3 systems. Pretty much any cheap Mac LC, Performa, Quadra, Centris or Power Macintosh you come across will do the trick (anything pre-iMac). Steer clear of the Blue & White G3s, G4s and G5s. Good luck!

 

[Dennis Nedry]

I wonder why in the world nobody ever made an ADB to old-style keyboard/mouse port adapter? That doesn't seem too difficult of a thing to make with a cheap microcontroller! It seems like you should be able to easily make PC adapters for this too.

I saw someone who had made an old-style to USB adapter for one of their mod projects. Does anyone remember this? I saw it here not too horribly long ago.

 

[Bunsen]

You may be thinking of one of the mods that had a USB-capable motherboard inside an old Plus shell.

Meanwhile: http://www.kbdbabel.org/

open source keyboard protocol translator project
Connect your keyboard of choice to your computer of your choice.

A microcontroller for some cents will translate the keyboard protocol.

..........alpha-prototypes, proved to be working:

PS2 Keyboard ---> Mac Plus

still haven't completed ADB. If anyone's likely to help them along with that, I'd take bets it's someone here.

a SCSI Zip drive. / combined with a PC Zip drive

... or with a PC SCSI card. You'll also need software on the PC side to format Mac hard drives (HFS, nb not HFS+). Macdisk has a 30 day trial period IIRC.

 

[tomlee59]

I wonder why in the world nobody ever made an ADB to old-style keyboard/mouse port adapter? That doesn't seem too difficult of a thing to make with a cheap microcontroller! It seems like you should be able to easily make PC adapters for this too.

I think it's just a matter of motivation. I agree that it's a straightforward thing to do. Indeed, I have a file (somewhere) with the keycodes generated by the original keyboard, given to me by someone who wanted to do this. As with many projects, others arose to push this one down on the priority list, and there it sits.

But if you want to undertake the project, let me know, and I will dig through my ever-expanding Pile-O'-Stuff and email you the file.

 

[Mac128]

I wonder why in the world nobody ever made an ADB to old-style keyboard/mouse port adapter? That doesn't seem too difficult of a thing to make with a cheap microcontroller! It seems like you should be able to easily make PC adapters for this too.
I saw someone who had made an old-style to USB adapter for one of their mod projects. Does anyone remember this? I saw it here not too horribly long ago.

The Cassie Keyboard is the closest thing I have seen to this.

Several vendors offered dual keyboards which could be switched between the old-style RJ-10 and ADB. Though the Mac Plus lasted until 1990, the industry had moved to ADB by 1987 along with more powerful computers. Chances are, if something happened to your keyboard, you'd buy a cheaper third party dual keyboard if you did not want to buy an Apple replacement, since an ADB keyboard (Apple or otherwise) would likely cost the same, plus the expense of a converter box, not to mention be a less elegant solution. Also, it gave you the ability to take it with you to your next ADB Mac. At that time, most people were upgrading to more powerful systems anyway. Also, the RJ-10 keyboards were quite durable, which meant they rarely needed to be replaced. Moreover, the RJ-10 keyboards are still considered some of the best typing keyboards available. When the Apple Extended Keyboard came along to supplant it as the best keyboard, it was very expensive. And any converter would not have likely been able to adapt much of the expanded functionality to the earlier protocol (The Plus keyboard even had issues on the 128K/512K). So all of these factors I think worked against anyone offering a stand alone adapter like the PS/2 to ADB adapters that were so popular to use cheap PC keyboards. If anything, I'm surprised there were not adapters to use the RJ-10 keyboards on ADB computers because these older keyboards were generally preferred over the newer ADB models.

As for the USB adapter, that was part of the 25th Anniversary project.

When the prices drop a bit on the wireless USB keyboards, I want to see if I can use it inside an RJ-10 keyboard with the old keys mounted onto its keys for use with a similar project. Otherwise, I will have to build that adapter.

I agree that it's a straightforward thing to do. Indeed, I have a file (somewhere) with the keycodes generated by the original keyboard, given to me by someone who wanted to do this. ...But if you want to undertake the project, let me know, and I will dig through my ever-expanding Pile-O'-Stuff and email you the file.

On the surface, this seems like something of a moot issue. RJ-10 keyboards are plentiful on eBay and certainly with the emphasis on restoration of these older Macs, such an adapter would have little use, especially for most who would have to make it themselves. However, there may certainly come a time, when even these old durable workhorse keyboards are no longer readily available, or begin to irrevocably fail. In which case, the only way to revive these machines will be with alternate keyboards. So perhaps it is not too soon to start thinking about it? In which case, I would think USB to RJ-10 would make more sense as ADB is quickly becoming an antique standard as well.

 

[register]

Yep, you sure can use that CF card. You'll need a SCSI-IDE adaptor and an IDE-CF adaptor.

Also check the information about SCSI harddisk replacement options in our 68kMLA Wiki. Be aware of the fact, that not any combination of SCSI-IDE bridge, IDE-CF adapter and CF card will work. Try to fetch a combination that is reported to work well, like the setup istar1018 recommended.

 

[ryan55]

Small update, I found a old 100MB zip drive at a used stuff store (or whatever the proper term for it is). It was a couple of bucks, but when i brought it home i went to iomega's site, and its a parallel drive. There were 2 others so i am going back tommorow if possible, i'll check if they have any scsi ones, (or a power cable, the one i bought didn't have one).

 

[ryan55]

Just thought i'd give an update, havent done much due to lack of funds (I'm a student with no job right now), but i was wondering if i could connect a scsi cd to this machine when i'm ready to get her up and running to transfer files from my pc to it. My idea is to get a scsi zip and a cd, the cd to transfer files, the zip as the "hard disk". First question, can i even do that with the systems they offer for free? My preference would be to run system 6 on it, but do cd's require system 7? Another question i have involves upgrading the ram to 4mb, is it worth it and is it reversable (but that little resistor or whatever it is back in for 256k ram chips). Also is there any way to edit those image files they use for old mac floppies in windows? An finally, where could i find a long enough screwdriver for those PITA screws under the handle? I should post up some pictures of my new rig just havent got around to it.

Ryan55

 

[MacPlusOwner]

I used a regular old socket wrench kit and a set of torx driver bits. With various combinations of socket extensions, sockets, and the torx bits, I was able to make a screwdriver long enough. Something important to know, though is don't use a screwdriver to pry open the case! There's no need! Someone here (I forget who, unfortunately) had a *great* tip for opening the case; just take the 2 screws under the handle out completely, then put them back in only 1 or 2 turns. Then push on the screws (with a screwdriver or something) to push the case apart. It works great, and there's no damage to the case! I wish I could remember who posted that, but I'm new here and don't remember the persons name (I thank you good sir!)

Another thing that's handy is a program called HFVExplorer. I think it's "free" (as in "abandonware"). It allows you to write 1.4Mb Mac formatted floppys on a PC. (in my case, I load the 1.4M disks in a Mac Classic II, and then write the 800K disks from there). It doesn't help you with the 800K disk issue on the Mac Plus though unfortunately, unless, as others have said, you have a "go-between" Mac.

Once I have the files on one of the Macs though, I just use an external scsi HD to move files amongst them.

 

[Mac128]

i was wondering if i could connect a scsi cd to this machine when i'm ready to get her up and running to transfer files from my pc to it. My idea is to get a scsi zip and a cd, the cd to transfer files, the zip as the "hard disk". My preference would be to run system 6 on it, but do cd's require system 7? Another question i have involves upgrading the ram to 4mb, is it worth it and is it reversable (but that little resistor or whatever it is back in for 256k ram chips). Also is there any way to edit those image files they use for old mac floppies in windows?

Yes System 6 offers CD-ROM support, but you'll need the drivers and most likely a vintage drive like Apple's CD SC to use them.

The RAM upgrades can be reversed easily by reconnecting the clipped resistor or replacing it. Whether it's worth it or not it your call. The more RAM, the happier the Plus will be, especially if you are planning on running System 6.0.8.

You can edit Macintosh image files inside any Mac emulator ported for the PC, BasiliskII and Mini vMac are two good ones.

 

[ryan55]

I finally got around to opening this thing 'cause i heard something rattleing around inside. I had to take a t-15 screwdriver and cut off the metal part, then cut a slot into it so i could turn it with a flathead screwdriver. Didn't have any problem after that, must have been opened before. Anyways, it was pretty clean, nothing looked broken, and i found what was rattling around, a small piece of sheet metal type thing, a little square about 1cm by 1cm. It had this writen on it

-2d

G7YA24

Weird, eh? I hope it didn't break off anything important. Anyways still waiting for keyboard and mouse, but i now have everything else i need to get it runing. More upgrades eventually, don't hold your breath though, I've got no money.

 

[joshc]

An finally, where could i find a long enough screwdriver for those PITA screws under the handle?/quote]
I don't know what country you're in, but both Amazon US and UK have very long T15 torx screwdrivers, like this one:

http://www.amazon.com/GearWrench-80086-18-Inch-Long-Screwdriver/dp/B001M0O17A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1248184949&sr=8-1

And on the UK site:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Star-Screwdriver-T15-X-300mm/dp/B0012MCULW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=diy&qid=1248184985&sr=8-2

There's also a seller on eBay who has a large stock of long T15 screwdrivers.