Is it even possible to network a G5 and a IIsi? I am looking at a G5 to replace an old G3 in which I have not been able to successfully increase the storage capacity. I've tried multiple things like Pata to Sata adapters, SCSI cards, etc. etc. I have not been able to get it to perform reliably. Therefore, I am looking at a G5 because I have a vendor who is telling me I can run Classic Mode and do all the things I have been doing on the G3. My worry is that I know Classic mode is emulation, and I am not sure I am going to be able to network it with my Mac IIsi units. The setup is as follows: Programmer currently sits at G3, making layouts our turret punches read to make metal parts. When each layout, its "fc file" and "fc report" are complete, he drags them across the network to the IIsi (which is the brain of the turret punch) he wants to run the program. The G3 is using ethernet, the IIsi units are using Appletalk. I have an Asantetalk bridge to connect the two networks and it works very reliably. Am I still going to be able to do this with Classic mode emulation?
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Network a G5 and a IIsi?
- Thread starter Iamanamma
- Start date
This is possible, but this is at the far edges of what is easily doable.
As one clarification - Classic Mode is not capable of doing its own file sharing, and, AppleShare IP Server cannot be run in Classic Mode, so this is right out as a way to get better filesystem support or disk hardware support for classic server applications.
You have to use OS X based server software.
However, this might still work and be reasonable. 10.2 can definitely and 10.3/4 have varying ability to speak with older OSes. TCP/IP is better but 10.3 and 10.4 can also both still talk the apples. (speak appleshare over appletalk to be converted to localtalk.)
Your G5 would need to be running 10.3 or 10.4, 10.3 would be better if you need to stick with system 6 or 7.1. An early G5 would be best for this, like, a single 1.6 would suit well for this. (Some very early G5s can run 10.2 but I don't know that I think there's a compelling reason to use 10.2 over 10.3 for this, at least if I'm remembering everything right. If I'm wrong though, then the first-gen G5 is your only choice and you have to run 10.2, I'll see if I can chase down that info.) 10.5 is definitely right out.
With 10.2/10.3 8TB volumes are supported and 10.4 supports 16TB volumes. However, I don' tknow what testing has been done in terms of putting bigger disks into PowerMac G5s. USB disks will work fine though.
What OS version is the IIsi running? Your options expand a bit if you can run 7.5.5 + opentransport/appleshare upgrades on it (or 7.6.1 with those) but I know that'll depend on what your process control application needs and how well lit responds to OT/AS upgrades, which are heavy-ish.
How many total concurrent connections do you need? OS X [client] has the same 10-client limit that OS 9 had, for every version that's relevant for this.
Other thoughts: What G3 do you have? If you have a blue-and-white, you could just use 2TB USB hard disks. I've run 2TB USB hard disks in OS 9 on my blue-and-white, iMac G3, and Power Mac G4. If LocalTalk is ultimately involved, then USB, while way slower than even a bad pata connection, will be "fine".
If you have a Mac with firewire, same deal, just, you can go buy a 2TB USB hard disk at best buy, firewire is a bit more complicated and it involves figuring out what disks had fw-sata bridges internally (lacie d2/quadra for example) and then installing newer disks to match your needs.
As one clarification - Classic Mode is not capable of doing its own file sharing, and, AppleShare IP Server cannot be run in Classic Mode, so this is right out as a way to get better filesystem support or disk hardware support for classic server applications.
You have to use OS X based server software.
However, this might still work and be reasonable. 10.2 can definitely and 10.3/4 have varying ability to speak with older OSes. TCP/IP is better but 10.3 and 10.4 can also both still talk the apples. (speak appleshare over appletalk to be converted to localtalk.)
Your G5 would need to be running 10.3 or 10.4, 10.3 would be better if you need to stick with system 6 or 7.1. An early G5 would be best for this, like, a single 1.6 would suit well for this. (Some very early G5s can run 10.2 but I don't know that I think there's a compelling reason to use 10.2 over 10.3 for this, at least if I'm remembering everything right. If I'm wrong though, then the first-gen G5 is your only choice and you have to run 10.2, I'll see if I can chase down that info.) 10.5 is definitely right out.
With 10.2/10.3 8TB volumes are supported and 10.4 supports 16TB volumes. However, I don' tknow what testing has been done in terms of putting bigger disks into PowerMac G5s. USB disks will work fine though.
What OS version is the IIsi running? Your options expand a bit if you can run 7.5.5 + opentransport/appleshare upgrades on it (or 7.6.1 with those) but I know that'll depend on what your process control application needs and how well lit responds to OT/AS upgrades, which are heavy-ish.
How many total concurrent connections do you need? OS X [client] has the same 10-client limit that OS 9 had, for every version that's relevant for this.
Other thoughts: What G3 do you have? If you have a blue-and-white, you could just use 2TB USB hard disks. I've run 2TB USB hard disks in OS 9 on my blue-and-white, iMac G3, and Power Mac G4. If LocalTalk is ultimately involved, then USB, while way slower than even a bad pata connection, will be "fine".
If you have a Mac with firewire, same deal, just, you can go buy a 2TB USB hard disk at best buy, firewire is a bit more complicated and it involves figuring out what disks had fw-sata bridges internally (lacie d2/quadra for example) and then installing newer disks to match your needs.
Hi Cory:
The G3 is a beige tower. I think it has underlying issues because there are many things I can't get to work properly. You gave me a ton of good advice when I was trying to beat it into submission. It has been very unstable. Upgrades work, then they don't. Then they do again, then they don't. It's frustrating. The IIsi's are running 7.1; we can't do any better than that. The turret press software is not compatible with anything later. We would only have 4 concurrent connections, max. One of my co-workers found a work-around for the crashing problem we had with OS 9 and the programming software, so I can use OS 9.2. I have a Power Mac G4 500 AGP running Retrospect for our Classic backups. If the G5 solution doesn't work out, I can possibly use the G4 instead or get another one just like it.
The G3 is a beige tower. I think it has underlying issues because there are many things I can't get to work properly. You gave me a ton of good advice when I was trying to beat it into submission. It has been very unstable. Upgrades work, then they don't. Then they do again, then they don't. It's frustrating. The IIsi's are running 7.1; we can't do any better than that. The turret press software is not compatible with anything later. We would only have 4 concurrent connections, max. One of my co-workers found a work-around for the crashing problem we had with OS 9 and the programming software, so I can use OS 9.2. I have a Power Mac G4 500 AGP running Retrospect for our Classic backups. If the G5 solution doesn't work out, I can possibly use the G4 instead or get another one just like it.
cheesestraws
Well-known member
I think the last version of OS X that will serve back to 7.1 is 10.2.8. ISTR 10.3 will only talk back to >= 7.5.3.
beachycove
Well-known member
A couple of thoughts, mostly unconnected to each other, but I am sure your problem is perfectly solveable.
G3 towers have often been overclocked by hotrodding previous owners (just jumpers on the logic board), which can make them unstable. Now, a host of other things can make a machine unstable, but overclocking in your case may not have been examined yet. You don’t need an overclocked machine for networking with a bunch of IIsis. I’d look here first if you haven’t already checked.
OSX.2 and X.3 retain some Appletalk networking abilities, as has been noted. I think X.3 runs on the early-to-mid G5’s, but not X.2. Cheesestraws’ contribution would in this case suggest that a G4 would suit better. But if you are using a G4, just use OS9, I say, not least because it sounds to me like you need it for the design process currently done on the G3.
G3 towers have often been overclocked by hotrodding previous owners (just jumpers on the logic board), which can make them unstable. Now, a host of other things can make a machine unstable, but overclocking in your case may not have been examined yet. You don’t need an overclocked machine for networking with a bunch of IIsis. I’d look here first if you haven’t already checked.
OSX.2 and X.3 retain some Appletalk networking abilities, as has been noted. I think X.3 runs on the early-to-mid G5’s, but not X.2. Cheesestraws’ contribution would in this case suggest that a G4 would suit better. But if you are using a G4, just use OS9, I say, not least because it sounds to me like you need it for the design process currently done on the G3.
The design process really runs best on OS 8.6, but it's getting crazy difficult to find machines that will run 8.6. Not to mention printers that are compatible. That G3 may well be overclocked, the backside label says it has a 233 mhz processor, but I am fairly sure when you run ASP, it says 300 mhz. I'm trying to check, but Mr. G3 has decided he doesn't want to start up from his hard drive right now. It's in another one of its moods. If it is overclocked, I didn't do it, we bought it used and it came that way. I wouldn't know the second thing about undoing it. (You told me the first thing, LOL)
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beachycove
Well-known member
Well if so, reducing it to 233 as nature intended would be my next step. It wouldn’t take more than ~20 mins.
Some info here: https://lowendmac.com/1997/overclocking-beige-power-mac-g3/
and here http://drivejumper.com/ClockupG3/homepage.html
Some info here: https://lowendmac.com/1997/overclocking-beige-power-mac-g3/
and here http://drivejumper.com/ClockupG3/homepage.html
beachycove
Well-known member
The trouble with over locking, by the way, is not the processor but the system bus. The latter often can’t handle being cranked up, and a basket case machine is the result.
Your trouble may just possibly lie here.
Your trouble may just possibly lie here.
I opened it up and the Warranty sticker is intact. so I am not sure what I have going on in there. I'll work on it more later this week.
Unknown_K
Well-known member
I generally just run a PC server with a virtual Win2kserver and its own 100Mb ethernet card that works well with appleshare on old 68k/PPC machines. You also get the added benefit of massive amounts of cheap storage on the PC side plus whatever backup you like.
For the Biege G3 series, depending on the ROM revisions, you need to keep the bootable partition under 8GB or it will eventually put OS files on parts of the drive that will make it unbootable.
For the Biege G3 series, depending on the ROM revisions, you need to keep the bootable partition under 8GB or it will eventually put OS files on parts of the drive that will make it unbootable.
I agree completely with beachycove w/re getting the G3 to whatever it is "supposed" to be. The G3s are very modular but there were two bus speeds and so it might be that like a /333 CPU card is trying to run a system qualified for 66MHz at 83MHz and that's causing some instability. Nothing suffers from running something "slower" than it "should" be on paper, and if your G3 has /233 printed on the back, it's probably an earlier one meant/qualified for 66Mhz, so, scale back to whatever the stock speed for the card is or whatever lets you run the bus at 233
As a thought: You might consider using a file server to separate these roles. You could put 10.2.8 or 10.2.8 Server on a very early G5 or any PowerMac G4 (which are fairly plentiful at the moment) and pop an 8TB USB hard disk out the back and be good to go.
This way, you don't need to worry about disk upgrades on 8.6 or 9.2.2 machines (especially if you're favoring beige hardware for the task)
You could decide whether to use a single account or give everyone accounts and access to a common folder. If this will put you over 10 total connections, you may need to think about "getting" OS X Server (or AppleShare IP, but ASIP has USB 1.1 limits and the 2TB volume limit) and configuring it. You could mostly still use the same workflow (one account or generic accounts by role, for example) but it would let you have more than 10 connections.
NT/2000/2003 server is also an option, (and TBH something running netatalk2 in full kernel capacity will probably work) so it kind of depends on what you need and what your comfort level is. Windows and Linux have the advantage of very very easily virtualizing on modern hardware os you can build your service as a VM, expand disks as necessary and (or thin provision what you think will last you the next ~decade up front) and then move the VM to newer hardware as you need. (You'd have to learn windows server and a virtualization tool, but I'd count it as worthwhile since it's easier to move a VM around than to migrate to an entirely new windows server install.)
one other thought - is your Beige G3 on its stock hard disk? It's worth being aware that those stock Quantum disks are dropping like flies and some of your issues could be coming from that problem.
As a thought: You might consider using a file server to separate these roles. You could put 10.2.8 or 10.2.8 Server on a very early G5 or any PowerMac G4 (which are fairly plentiful at the moment) and pop an 8TB USB hard disk out the back and be good to go.
This way, you don't need to worry about disk upgrades on 8.6 or 9.2.2 machines (especially if you're favoring beige hardware for the task)
You could decide whether to use a single account or give everyone accounts and access to a common folder. If this will put you over 10 total connections, you may need to think about "getting" OS X Server (or AppleShare IP, but ASIP has USB 1.1 limits and the 2TB volume limit) and configuring it. You could mostly still use the same workflow (one account or generic accounts by role, for example) but it would let you have more than 10 connections.
NT/2000/2003 server is also an option, (and TBH something running netatalk2 in full kernel capacity will probably work) so it kind of depends on what you need and what your comfort level is. Windows and Linux have the advantage of very very easily virtualizing on modern hardware os you can build your service as a VM, expand disks as necessary and (or thin provision what you think will last you the next ~decade up front) and then move the VM to newer hardware as you need. (You'd have to learn windows server and a virtualization tool, but I'd count it as worthwhile since it's easier to move a VM around than to migrate to an entirely new windows server install.)
one other thought - is your Beige G3 on its stock hard disk? It's worth being aware that those stock Quantum disks are dropping like flies and some of your issues could be coming from that problem.
I would love to do this. I have proposed doing this. I was denied. We have some folks here who are way more than "resistant" to changing how they do things.
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I'm having a hard enough time with all of this Mac OS networking, and we have no PCs here. Thanks for the advice, but I know absolutely nothing about the Windows platform and really don't want to veer off into the unknown.
This is what started my journey. We've been trying to replace all of our old Quantum hard drives. The heat and dirt in the shop have aggravated the age problem, and our IIsis started dropping like flies during the heat wave last summer. We replaced all of their conventional HDs with SCSI2SD, and now they're running like champs. I could not get SCSI2SD to work correctly in the G3. I could not get an SSD (using a PATA to SATA adapter) to work at all. I've been having trouble with the SATA card I bought being stable as well. It has been a very difficult journey.
Since it looked like buying a G5 and forcing it to fit into our network was going to be extremely complicated, I decided to purchase a G4 tower instead. I found a promising 450Mhz G4 with AGP Graphics on eBay. It looks like I may be able to set it up with OS 8.6 as well, which would work out just fine.
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