Just acquired a Macintosh SE. Some questions I have...

[Apache Thunder]

Ok the drive shows up on SCSI Probe. Could be it's not formatted correctly. I will try and find a patched or third party HD setup program. The stock Apple HD Setup app doesn't see it. Probably because it may not be an Apple branded drive.

Since SCSI Probe sees it, that rules out connection problems.

 

[Apache Thunder]

Sorry for all the double posts, But the forum's time limit on editing posts is too short.

I've gotten a patched version of Apple HD Setup. Started that and it says it can't find a suitable drive. So even the patched version won't initialize it. Since it shows up on SCSI Probe, it isn't a problem with the SCSI bus, connection or the hard-drive logic board.

The drive may simply be failing the self-test and is refusing the mount. Looks like it's dead.

I got it for free, so I can't really complain. But it is disappointing.

 

[techknight]

I would use Lido and try LLFing it. 

 

[Apache Thunder]

Is Lido keyboard friendly?

EDIT: I ran it in Basilisk. Doesn't appear I can do anything with this program without a mouse. I wonder if there's some simple app/extension that can assign keys on the keyboard to mouse actions.

I could then use the keyboard to move the mouse. Would be a decent workaround until I get a mouse I would think.

 

[Apache Thunder]

Ok I ran Lido anyway. It starts up and scans the bus. But once it reaches id 0, the hard-drive shows a bit of activity but after about 10 seconds this error comes up:

"OSErr = 5 Bad SCSI Command: phase error."

I click ok and it will then show the device on id 0 and reports the correct capacity for it. (It shows "Drive Unreadable!" message next to where the list of volumes would be).

The error comes up a few more times before letting me do anything. I can't do anything with this program without a mouse, so I don't know if I can format it with this or not.

Any idea what this error means?

 

[techknight]

phase error = bad drive. 

 

[Apache Thunder]

Is there anything similar to Mouse Keys for MacOS 7? I need to see if I can use the keyboard to control the mouse cursor since I don't have a mouse.

 

[techknight]

The mouse was the primary point to early Macintosh systems. You kinda have to have one. 

 

[Apache Thunder]

Yeah I definitely understand that. I recall Windows machines grew up on the days of MS-DOS and other command line based OSs. So keyboard control was important and retained even in more modern operating systems.

The Macintosh emphasized a mouse driven GUI environment that is simpliar and easily used by more people thus making it marketable to a greater crowd where command line based systems of the time was too complicated to be used in a practical manner by the masses. So it's no surprise the old MacOS software didn't allow one to do much with just a keyboard.

The vintage Macintoshes were literally a different species of computers back then and the reason why I liked them so much. Apple still makes computers, but they are x86 Intel based machines now, so a lot of the charm of having different hard-ware was lost, so I never had an interest in the newer macs.

I suppose I'll just have to wait till I have a mouse before I can find out 100% if this drive is dead or not. Unfortunately this means I'd either have the choice of getting the mouse first (and wait for it to arrive in the mail) to see if the drive is savable or not, or just get another hard-drive with the mouse at the same time and risk having 2 working drives and realize that I had wasted my money.

It's starting to look more like this drive really is dead. But there is that tiny chance that Lido could format it and it would be usable. But alas, I almost got there.

I got a little creative with ResEdit and modified some of the menu options to have command key shortcuts (I did all of this in an emulator on my PC and transferred the result to my boot floppy). I assigned Command+K to the "Maximum Mac Setup" menu option in the Partition Menu.

I assume this does the same thing as what the format button would have done. Only this would LFF it and partition it in one go for me. But alas, the confirmation dialog (the warning message that this would destroy existing data) has the default button as the Cancel button. So pressing enter on the keyboard would activate the Cancel button.

I have yet to find a way to edit the program to where I could use enter to activate the Ok button instead. Thus I'm stuck till I get a mouse. Which drives me insane being how a single dialog has gotten in the way of doing what I had wanted to do. I got so close yet a single button has trolled me.

 

[Apache Thunder]

Ok once I get a replacement drive, what would I have to do to try and recover data of this drive? I've heard of the freezer trick and also manually moving the head if it gets stuck in the park position.

But my drive isn't really doing any "click of death" noises. It does some clicks on spin up which last about 10-20 seconds, then stops. But it never spins down. (it will click if I query the drive using Lido but get the above mentioned error)

So not sure what the cause would be. Seeing as the drive is a total loss, I would not be afraid of opening it up so I can at least have the chance of getting the original data off it.

I might wait till I have a an external enclosure to run it in first as right now even when I do get a replacement drive, the old one won't have anywhere to go and the data won't get anywhere fast enough.

I suppose I could try and boot off it and setup networking, but I doubt it would function long enough to allow that.

Could be possible that it's capacitor issues? I wonder if these old drives can suffer from that too. I'd imagine so if they used similar capacitors as the ones known to leak from old age.

 

[techknight]

The heads, or the pre-amp IC is probably bad. Or the tracks are so far mis-aligned it may not be recoverable. 

The problem with stepper actuated drives, is alignment. Eventually it drifts. 

Some drives have the ability to "rotate" the head stepper motor by loosening up the screws. You can try to see if that brings in alignment. If not, the heads are probably bad. 

 

[Apache Thunder]

Ok. I've removed the drive and took a closer look at it. I've disconnected the circuit board and noticed something:



There is some "debris" near the center axle area that contacts a copper fin on the circuit board. Here's a photo of the underside of the circuit board:



And here's a photo of the top IC. If it has capacitors, it doesn't appear to be using the type prone to leaking:



My main concern is that debris on the center axle. (the whole "disc" area rotates, so it rotates with the platters.

Maybe it's a lubrication issue?

EDIT:

Ok I powered it up with an external power adapter (It came with my IDE/SATA to USB adapter. So it was useful in this case. ).

I noticed the LED flashed 8 times. I found this awhile back:

http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/seagate/ST157N-0-49MB-3-5-HH-SCSI1-SE.html

Flashes -Failures codes

1 | Microprocessor/Internal Memory Test

2 | Microprocessor ROM Checksum Test

3 |Controller Chip Test

4 |Controller Program RAM Test

5 |Data Buffer RAM Test

6 |Spindle Speed Test

...| If the drive is unable to reach and maintain correct

...| spindle speed

8 |Read Operating System Microcode From Drive

...| If the controller is unable to read the operating system

...| from the drive

9 |Read Operating System Microcode From Drive

...| If the controller reads the operating system records,

...| but determines that they are invalid.

So the drive is telling me the error for number 8. "Read Operating System Microcode From Drive - If the controller is unable to read the operating system from the drive"

Not sure what this means exactly. Perhaps a LFF could fix it. Won't know till I get a mouse though.

That rules out motor sticking though as it would have given me error 6 instead if the spindle couldn't get up to speed. (and in that instance I would believe it would power down on that error)

Edit2: Powered it up a second time and it doesn't display a blinking LED code that time. Seems hit and miss. (mac still didn't boot from it though). I left it on and will see what Lido says this time.

 

[techknight]

That means the drive's controller couldnt not read the system area track, or whats known as the negative cylinder/tracks. This is an array of tracks behind Track 0. tells the drive the G-List, P-List, geometry, and other low level information required. 

It appears the ST-157N which I believe you have? is an early voice-coil actuated drive. Chances are, the heads crashed long ago. 

 

[techknight]

I have two dead microdrive 8425s here. trust me, I know. 

 

[Apache Thunder]

Yep that's the exact model. Although this one is a bit peculier. It has a black face plate on the front with LED. (so there is no connector to attach the SE's LED cord to. ).

It looks like this particular drive was meant to be in a server rack of some kind perhaps. Odd that it found it's way into an SE/30.

I've seen identical models on eBay that don't have this faceplate.

Damn, sounds like something that can't be fixed then. Data is gone for good it looks like.

 

[techknight]

Without a working donor drive to borrow a headstack from? Yup...

 

[bom.cabedal]

Hi Apache Thunder,

Nice machine. I've still got the SE I bought as a teenager back in 1989, and bought an SE/30 along with it a while ago. On eBay they're expensive, but on local (online) markets they're still affordable; the going rate in my part of Europe (Netherlands/Germany) is around 75-100 euros for a good one. My own SE/30, a fine recapped specimen, set me back 75 euros. The keyboard wasn't contemporary (same one as yours, you might want to replace that), so I got an Extended Keyboard (M0115 "Saratoga") for another fifty. I guess shipping from Europe to the US would be expensive, but seeing the prices on eBay it might even be worth it.

 

[Apache Thunder]

Ok, my Macintosh SE is up and running now with a mouse, hard-drive, and a scsi zip drive I snagged off eBay for a cool $14 shipped. Aside from not having a PRAM battery for the thing yet (I have removed the Maxwell time bomb a few weeks ago. ), there are no issues I'm having. I created a thread in the conquests section that shows off this SE. If I encounter any issues specific to this machine, I will post again here.

By the way, anyone know of a way of converting a wav file to a snd file? (the sound files MacOS uses). I want to try and put in a custom beep sound for MacOS. As I understand it, the beep sounds in the sound control panel are stored in the System file. I can easily drop new ones in, but I need to find a way of generating new ones.

The format is pretty old and none of the audio converters I have have any idea how to convert to such an obsolete sound format. Perhaps some basic audio program for MacOS 7 that will run on my SE might be able to do it. I can convert the file locally on the SE if I have to.

The audio file I want to use is really short like the other ones, so I don't expect any problems using it on this machine. The SE doesn't have the Apple Sound Chip like the 030 based SE/30, so that might limit my choices of audio playback conversion if I were to try it locally on the SE.

 

[CC_333]

If you can get ahold of QuickTime's Movie Player 2.5, that I think will convert stuff to .snd files (I don't know about .wav to .snd specifically, but I think it does .aif/.aiff to .snd (AIFF is Apple's equivalent to Microsoft's WAV).

c

 

[Apache Thunder]

lol. I did not think to check the Quicktime software. I ran MoviePlayer (it would likely not run on an SE do to lack of color quickdraw) and it does support wave files. But I used AIFF anyways as I had already converted the file to that. Looks like I now have a "System 7 Sound" which is exactly what I need.

Saving SND files involves using the export menu instead of the save as menu.