Cloning a PB G3 2.5" IDE Hard Drive with an SE/30?

[JDW]

I was dead tired last night, so I decided to forgo the PRAM battery change. But today on my break at work, I found some Wallstreet discussions over at Apple's forum that seem to shed some light on what I may be experiencing. But I must say the information is overwhelming. And I had thought the Wallstreet to be a very non-complex machine to own. Perhaps it is in the stock condition, but with a hard drive bigger than 8GB and a new CPU too -- watch out. I'm a bit overwhelmed after having read all this info, but I'll post the relevant threads here for those of you with inquiring minds...

8GB Limit:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/1471833?start=0&tstart=0

More on the 8GB Limit, in the context of the early iMacs:

https://discussions.apple.com/message/5224484?messageID=5224484#5224484?messageID=5224484

Apple article on problematic booting into Open Firmware:

http://support.apple.com/kb/TA22193?viewlocale=en_US

Wallstreet & OS X 10.4 Tiger:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/1390427?start=0&tstart=0

Apple's Wallstreet "Battery Reset 2.0" software:

http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1269?viewlocale=en_US

Wallstreet Battery Charging Issues:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/1447206?threadID=1447206

And yes, I read through all those threads, in their entirety.

Ack! My brain hurts!

 

[JDW]

While swapping out the PRAM battery in my Wallstreet today, I yanked the 80GB hard drive and placed it in my external USB/Firewire enclosure. Since I had quacky problems with the FireWire connection when using my SSD before, I used the USB connection this time. Interestingly, all the data is there on the drive. I was able to back it up via SuperDuper to some SparseBundle Disk Image files. I then tested the speed using Intech's SpeedTools Utilities Pro "Test Data Transfer Integrity," set to 1 MB test for 5 minutes. The average READs were 32.8MB/s and average WRITEs were 27MB/s. This is quite similar to what I found when testing the SSD in the same enclosure.

You can see a photo of the 80GB drive here (which interestingly enough, is an Apple branded Fujitsu):

https://picasaweb.google.com/103365672326265854011/PowerBookG3WallstreetStuff#5687014212327182450

 

[JDW]

Gentlemen, I'm in need of your kind assistance. My PowerBook G3 Wallstreet which has the Sonnet 500MHz G3 CPU, 512MB RAM (2 cards, 8 chips per card) and 80GB internal HD is consistently crashing about a minute or so after booting into OS 9. That holds true whether I boot from the internal hard drive or from an OS 9 boot CD-ROM. The machine just locks up. Sometimes the arrow cursor is frozen and other times not, but the rest of the machine is fully locked up, forcing me to shutdown via Shift-fn-ctrl-Power.

I have read that zapping the PRAM is done by powering off the machine and then doing a Shift-fn-ctrl-Power press. I've done that, but it resolves nothing.

I've also removed the CPU, removed and then reseated both RAM chips (top & bottom of the CPU card), then reseated the CPU itself. (I actually did more than just reseat the RAM cards. I swapped them too for good measure.) After that I was able to boot off an OS9 CD and run the machine for about 6 minutes before I got a crash/lockup.

And again, I get the crashing even when booting from a CD, so hard drive partitioning and the 8GB limit has nothing to do with this.

Could it be the CPU heatsink/heatshield? When I remove the heatshield to access the CPU, I notice underneath the heatsink (and affixed to it), directly above the CPU there is a ring of white CPU heatsink compound. This stuff is still soft, but it all sticks to the heatsink itself, and there is no residual sign of that white stuff on the CPU itself. So could it be that the white heatsink compound needs to be replaced? Could it be the CPU overheating? If not, what else could cause this crashing do you think?

Separate problem now...

I found a fellow by the name of Gulio on Apple's Discussion Forum talking about his experience with Wallstreets and hard drive partitioning. He too had a Sonnet CPU card, big hard drive, 512MB RAM, and OS 10.4 installed via XPOSTFACTO. He said he used 3 paritions:

650MB for OS 9

6.8GB for OS 10.4

And the rest for programs and general storage

He said he used 650MB and 6.8GB so the total partition size for the OS's would be 7.45GB, which he says is the maximum size allowed to avoid trouble.

Here's my problem. I need to know how to partition my drive! I can't get it to reliably mount in an external USB2 or Firewire enclosure on the Wallstreet, although I can get it to mount on my Intel iMac via USB in that external enclosure. And while I can mount and reformat the drive in OS X Lion's Disk Utility, the minimum partition size is 1.07GB! So in order to create a smaller partition of 640MB, I assume that I must use OS 9's Drive Setup 2.0.7?

I had been thinking about yanking my spinning platter 80GB drive, swapping in the 40GB OWC SSD, then booting off my OS 9 CD and formatting the SSD that way. However, I have the lockup/freezing problem to contend with first!

Problems, problems, probelms.

Again, I would greatly appreciate hearing your insights and advice.

Thank you!

 

[theos911]

Can you test your memory chips?

 

[JDW]

Can you test your memory chips?

Yes I did that test, and the CPU too.

I have two Wallstreet PDQs:

1) Apple 266MHz G3 CPU with 128MB RAM and 40GB internal HD

2) Sonnet 500MHz G4 CPU with 512MB RAM (8 chips per 256MB RAM card) and 80GB internal HD

The Wallstreet with the 500MHz Sonnet card has the crashing problem. So I yanked that CPU (leaving the 512MB RAM connected) and then insert it into my other Wallstreet which has Apple 266MHz G3 CPU card (with 128MB RAM connected). (I was able to do this without any Sonnet CPU card firmware conflicts because both my Wallstreets are PDQ models with the same exact ROM.) I put the machine back together again, including the heatshield, then booted. The Wallstreet then booted right away (faster, of course) and I have been running disk, RAM and CPU intensive benchmarks for about 15 minutes now, without even a single crash at all. That is long enough to heat up the CPU, so if heat was a problem on the other Wallstreet, it certainly is not on this Wallstreet.

So my test confirms two things:

1) The Sonnet CPU is fine

2) Each of the 256MB RAM cards attached to the Sonnet CPU are fine

Therefore, why would my other Wallstreet be crashing so consistently?

Thanks.

 

[JDW]

After using the 500MHz Sonnet in my "good" Wallstreet for a few hours, I discovered something that didn't happen when I had the stock Apple 266MHz CPU inside. Now with the Sonnet card, if I close the lid, the machine sleeps. But if I then open the lid and hid any keyboard key, I get a boot chime and blank screen. It stays that way forever, unless I use fn-ctrl-shift-Power to shut it down. I've not found any other problems though.

So my previous post stands correct. I just cannot explain this Wake-from-Sleep problem with the Sonnet card on this "good" Wallstreet. I found this discussion which seems to parallel my Wake problem exactly, but the closing two posts about a "metal strip" make no sense to me. Any ideas?

I can only add one more thing. On my "bad" Wallstreet (the one that gives me crashes, regardless of the CPU card), I cannot boot with a battery in the left bay. It will work with the battery in the right bay though. It's strange because when I first tested this computer, after I had bought it off EBAY a month ago, the machine had the stock battery in the left bay and it booted fine from the battery. And it was only after I put in a brand new battery (one I purchased from OWC), that I heard a strange noise and then the machine shutdown. After that I could not boot with the battery in the left drive bay. I Googled and found some people saying it could be caused by a bad Charger Card (820-0917-A). But why would mine have suddenly died? It's pretty scary to me. If parts in these machines die that easily, it makes no logical sense to keep repairing them! And is it really the Charger Card? Or could it be something else? Or could it be the Charger Card AND something else too?

Gentlemen, I am brand new to the world of PowerBook Wallstreets, so I need to tap your knowledge to know what's going on. Because right now I am very frustrated and confused.

Thank you.

 

[theos911]

I'm beginning to lean on bad Main Board in your "bad" WS. Try the 266 CPU in the "bad" and see what happens.

Again, I've never had anything remotely similar, my WS has always been rock solid, a bit RAM picky, but solid. Hmmm... Wait a second...

Your RAM is compatible, right?

 

[JDW]

My RAM is compatible, and that is why I repeatedly wrote "8 chips" in my previous two posts. RAM cards that are 256MB in size but have 8 chips on the front and another 8 chips on back (16 chips total) are compatible. However, I have read in numerous places around the net that the 4 chip per side 256MB RAM cards (8 chips total) are not compatible, insofar as the computer will not see all the memory. And besides, as I wrote in my previous post, the Sonnet card works without any lockups at all when inserted into my "good" Wallstreet. That proves the RAM is a non-issue, would it not?

But as I said in my previous post, the only one issue I've found when placing the Sonnet G4 card in my "good" Wallstreet is that the closing the lid to Sleep the machine will Sleep it (LED flashes correctly), but when I open the lid and then press a key to wake it, I hear the "cold boot chime" and the screen remains blank. And despite that "chime" it is not in fact booting, nor should it be -- I am merely trying to wake it from Sleep! I would like to know why this is happening, but this is a separate issue that pertains only to my "good" Wallstreet, and it has nothing to do with the problem that makes my "bad" Wallstreet "bad" (i.e., crashing continually).

So to repeat it again:

1) My "bad" Wallstreet is "bad" only because it crashes not long after I boot into OS 9 (a minute or so after I get to the OS 9 Desktop and then perform some action). For example, when I double-click one of the hard drive icons (my 70GB partition, on which the OS 9 system folder resides), I get a small dialog that shows a floppy disk in-hand with an arrow, and it asks me: Please insert the disk "" -- but the name of the disk it wants me to insert is not shown and instead there are only quotation marks where the disk name should be. It's very strange. But that is only one example of how it crashes. In other cases, I will be using an app and then it will just lockup (sometimes the arrow pointer is frozen and other times not).

2) My "good" Wallstreet works perfectly with the stock Apple 266MHz CPU card inside, and it Sleeps and Wakes fine when the lid is closed and opened. And when I install the Sonnet G4 CPU in this machine, it pretty much works fine insofar as I do not get the crashes of my "bad" Wallstreet. However, as I have stated before, when I try to Wake it from Sleep,I get the boot chime and I hear the hard drive spin-up; but the screen remains blank and I am forced to do an fn-ctrl-shift-Power to shutdown and then press the Power key to restart. But if I don't Sleep the machine, there are no problems at all. (Even so, I consider this a problem because who doesn't Sleep a notebook, right?)

Now if I place the stock Apple 266MHz CPU card in my "bad" Wallstreet (keeping in mind this Apple CPU card has 128MB of compatible, good RAM), it seems to be stable, except for the strange "Please insert disk" lockup I get when I double-click my 70GB partition. That made me curious so I swapped hard drives between the two computers. Here is what happened:

1) On my good Wallstreet (now with 500MHz CPU and my 80GB HD), the machine boots fine. The Desktop got rebuilt when the Finder appeared. I double-clicked the 70GB partition and the drive contents displayed nicely -- no "Please insert Disk" lockup (maybe because the Desktop was rebuilt?). But when I close the lid, wait a minute, then reopen the lid and press a key to Wake the machine, I get the boot chime and the hard drive spins up, but the screen remains blank forever. Furthermore, I decided to boot of an OS 9.2.1 CD-ROM installer and use Drive Setup (on the CD) to reformat and repartition my 80GB hard drive. The CD boots fine and the two partitions of my 80GB drive mount on the Desktop. I then use the CD's Disk Utility, which displays the CD and my 80GB disk and its two partitions. I then tried to initialize. It presented me with a dialog that has three buttons: Custom Setup, Cancel, Initialize. It FROZE at this point, although the CD remained spinning. After a couple minutes the CD spun down, but the machine remained frozen. The arrow pointer was frozen as well.

2) On my bad Wallstreet (now with 266MHz CPU and my 40GB HD), the machine boots fine. The Desktop did NOT get rebuilt. I proceeded to run MacBench 4, all tests, to heat up the CPU and see what would happen. No lock-ups at all even after all the tests had run. And when I close the lid to Sleep the machine, when I then lift the lid and type a key to Wake it, it Wakes fine and the screen immediately lights up -- no problems here. Interestingly, I am not seeing any left expansion bay battery problems now either. But when I choose Shutdown from the Finder in OS9, I hear about a half second of crackling from the Wallstreet's speaker.

Any ideas now?

Thanks.

 

[theos911]

That proves the RAM is a non-issue, would it not?

Most likely, Yes.

So, both CPUs (with their matching RAM) work fine in at least one of the WSs. I think this rules out a RAM or CPU issue, Yes?

My instinct is saying you may have more than one issue. Maybe a bad HDD or both, or a bad LB and a bad HDD. I'm kind of stabbing in the dark at this point.

:scrambled:

 

[JDW]

I'm about ready to rip my hair out and scream. I am now getting lock-ups on my "good" Wallstreet when I boot off an OS 9 CD-ROM and the Sonnet CPU is installed.

But the reason why I want to scream now is because I cannot figure out how to format and partition my 80GB spinning platter hard drive. I put it in my Wallstreet with the 266MHz CPU, and I can boot of the OS 9 CD without crashing. I opened Drive Setup and told it to create the following 3 partitions:

1) 650MB

2) 6.8GB

3) The remaining space.

I then clicked Initialize. Sadly, I got an error at the end saying Initialization failed, however it created the following 3 partitions:

1) 650MB

2) 650MB

3) 6.8GB

So where did the rest of my space go!?

So I then put the 80GB drive in an external case and attached it to my OS X Lion iMac and ran Disk Utility. Stupid Disk Utility won't allow me to create any partition smaller than 1.07GB on it! But even worse, there is no way to partition it with OS 9 Drivers. In the past I remember having this checkbox, but in Lion it's gone! So how in the world can I format my hard drive so my Wallstreet can use it, yet maintain all 80GB of space?

UPDATE: I just booted my iMac from OS X 10.6 and I don't see an option to install OS 9 Drivers either! And when I put in my OS X Tiger DVD on my iMac and tried to launch the Tiger version of Disk Utility, it tells me I cannot run it under Snow Leopard! Ack! What can I do?

 

[Bunsen]

Boot the iMac from the DVD?

 

[JDW]

Boot the iMac from the DVD?

Thanks, Bunsen. But my iMac is a Nov. 2009 model (i7 QuadCore). It won't boot from a Tiger DVD. It's times like this I get frustrated with Apple. It makes logical sense for them to severe compatibility with past OS's on new hardware, since it reduces their workload. But it's a false limitation imposed on the hardware, since 2009 hardware that can run Snow Leopard technologically speaking should have the ability to boot Leopard and Tiger too. And the end result of Apple's self-serving interests is that we the consumer have to pay for it, and jump through hoops to accomplish backward compatibility that Apple so greatly disdains. Of course, this thinking is very much Steve Jobs -- the man who saved Apple and boosted my AAPL stock price into the stratosphere. And none of us here can argue about the greatness of Apple hardware and software. It's truly a Love-Hate relationship.

Anyway, there must be someone among us who has figured out how to get a hard drive formatted within Lion for use with OS 9, right? And truly, if we can figure out how to network Lion & OS9, surely there must be a way to format an external HD with OS 9 drivers and create partitions smaller than 1.07GB in Lion too. Are there few among us who use Lion on their modern Macs?

 

[JDW]

I ended up formatting the 2.5" drive in an external case connected to my G4 Cube running OS 9 via FW400. I initially used Intech's HD SpeedTools 3.6 (OS 9 edition) to format the drive into 3 partitions:

1) 650MB

2) 6.8GB

3) The remaining space

Benchmarks show a big speed bump in READs because of the optimization that the Intech driver offers. However, I had trouble booting from the drive after installing OS 9 on it. I would get the folder with the flashing "?" mark in it. So I reformatted the drive using Apple's Disk Utility, did a fresh install of OS 9, and then I could boot. It sickens me though because Intech SpeedTools is supposed to work with OS 9. I must therefore assume that it does work with OS 9, just not on a Wallstreet! Still makes me sick though. The Intech driver is faster than Apple's.

But my Sonnet 500MHz G4 card must have some problems because nothing I do will keep it from freezing. It's strange. It never freezes while the computer is booting. It only freezes once it gets to the desktop (in OS 9) and all the icons display. Sometimes it freezes right away, and other times it takes 30s, and other times it takes a couple minutes. Sometimes it will freeze when I do nothing at all. And other times it will freeze when I click around on screen.

Here are photos of the front/back sides of my Sonnet card, and my two sets of RAM:

https://picasaweb.google.com/103365672326265854011/PowerBookG3WallstreetStuff

I know the RAM is good because it works great in my stock Apple 266MHz CPU card. I even tried putting only one 64MB RAM card in the top slot of the Sonnet CPU card (some people online say that's a good test to perform), but the machine still locks up after booting to the OS 9 desktop. No freezes whatsoever when I use the 266MHz CPU card though, in either one of my two Wallstreets.

 

[trag]

I realize this was six months ago, but did you ever try replacing the heat sink grease between the CPU and the heat sink/shield? You mentioned looking at it in a mid-thread post, but never said (I think) that you tried anything with it.

Your symptoms could be a number of things, but they're consistent with overheating, and if there's no heat sink compound actually on the CPU die (raised rectangle in center) then there's a good chance that it is overheating.

 

[uniserver]

i would hook local talk cable up to both, then, use a boot cd boot the one you want the stuff copied to, use drive set up and wipe the drive, then, chooser click the other machine and just drag and drop, it may take a while, let it go over night. i just do a drag and drop with my vintage mac's all the time. then wala you will have 2 HD Booting machines with the same contents.

*edit* i'm not sure i wonder if you could use a ethernet cable… should work… might have to set some manual IP's not sure if the wallstreet has a auto switching port that will cross over… if not then you would need a cross over cable. would speed the copy up immensely

but i like like local talk, slow but very reliable and it just works!

 

[theos911]

I am now the new owner of this G4 upgrade card. My experiences with it have been different than JDW's, but also consistent with overheating. Following a pinch of curiosity, I gave the little round heatsink on the chip a little pinch and PING, off it flew, dried up grease disintegrating to dust.

I'll need to go to CVS and grab some alcohol to clean it, then I'll do it up with Ceramique 2 and we'll see how it does.

 

[trag]

Let us know how it turns out.