An open letter to the 68kMLA community...

[~tl]

Well guys (and girls), I think everyone here would agree that the atmosphere on the forum (and the Lounge in particular) has been a little sucky of late. I thought I'd take a few minutes to write down my thoughts on the matter, with the hope that it'll make you guys think again about yours.

First off, lets try to remember that this forum is primarily about vintage Macs. On the whole, posts in the majority of forums are constructive, on topic and generally showcase the amazing level of technical knowledge that we have in our user-base. While there is occasionally a problem here or there, I'd like to thank all of you for trying your hardest to keep those other forums on topic. I know that the Software forum is another kettle of fish, but we're trying to sort out new policies for that, and you may have seen the announcement in that forum. Now we come to "The Lounge". Duh, duh, duuuuuuuh...

I'm perfectly aware that whenever you have a forum like this, people don't just come here for their vintage Mac fix. They also come here to socialise with other people that share similar interests. Call it the "community" aspect, if you will, though I personally think that that's a term that is banded around too often to cover over the cracks. To that end, we have our general, off-topic, forum where people can relax, unwind, and post about things out-with the confines of the vintage Mac theme. We try not to set any rules about what can/can't be included here, as long as the posts stay "civil" and within the forum rules. Going back to the "community" aspect, I'm fully aware that some people here view other members here as their "friends" and hence feel comfortable sharing every aspect of their personal lives with them. I don't personally share this feeling, although over the years I have come to know and respect a lot of the members here and often chat to them via AIM, etc. There are also some members who want to maintain their privicy, which is laudable, and, for the most part, that seems to be respected.

To the first group of people...

While you may feel comfortable in posting a thread about every little thing that happens in your life, please be aware that some people visit here for the actual technical content, rather than for the community aspect. Try and see it from their point of view. Every time that they log on they are confronted with, and have to wade through, a number of threads about the latest trials and tribulations of a person's life, when all they're really interested in is old Macs. While we are proud that you view this place as somewhere you can share your troubles, please recognise that there may be better places to do so. A blog, Twitter, Facebook, the IRC channel, or even just a single thread about the latest happenings in your life. That way, you're not inconveniencing the people who are here for the technical content too much, and you can still share your life with those that are interested.

To the second...

Please try to be civil towards those members who feel they need to share things about their lives. While you may be here solely for the technical topics, please try to understand that some members see this as a social experience where they can meet like minded people and post in the Lounge as if it were their place to hang out. If you don't like the look of a topic then simply ignore it!

To everybody...

Please quit it with the snide remarks and the bitchy comments. While it may make you feel a bit better, it rarely does anything to improve the topic and generally just causes it to descend in to name calling, etc. The old adage of "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything" has rarely been more appropriate. Please think about the consequences of what you post before you do so. If you have a problem with a member in particular it would be better to take it up with them via a private message rather than openly on the forum.

Neither stance is the right one and I'm glad that we have both types of people on here. Maybe I'm oversimplifying things a little as well. However, generally, everyone needs to show a bit more respect to the other members of the community or else this place is going to further descend in to pointless arguments and pettiness.

Cheers,

~T

 

[Mars478]

Nice Announcement ~tl...

I hope this actually works, and also you should do something about the Bad luck going around the Forums.

Thanks for a great community and keep on truckin'!

-Mathias

 

[~tl]

Cheers. What "bad luck" are you talking about specifically?

 

[Christopher]

Well, it seems like, from what I've noticing by what people type, that something terrible is happening in their lives and they are doing the best they can to not let it get to them. But it sometimes eeks out.

 

[vassilizaitsev]

Here here....

Last time I posted about 68k I got the sugestion "don't use your 68k computer..... modern computers are much better"

I post personal things on facebook/myspace/imeem

i try to make positive comments here about 68k use.

 

[Mars478]

Cheers. What "bad luck" are you talking about specifically?

Bad things are happening to people, computers are dying for no reason...

My PowerBook 150 died.

 

[~tl]

I'll see what I can do...

 

[II2II]

Bad things happen to all of us all of the time. Thing is, very few of them are tragedies. If we lose our job, we look for a new job. If we lose a friend, we try to make amends or look for new friends. If our vehicle breaks down, we try to fix it. If our Mac breaks down, well, that is a true trajedy.

Or not. We can try to figure out how to fix the machine, may it be replacing the hard drive or soldering on new capacitors. Or maybe we go out to look for a replacement computer, if the repair is too daunting. Or maybe we decide to emulate the old hardware, because we realise that the equipment is aging and maintaining it may not be worth while. Or maybe we abandon that vintage Mac and go onto something new.

The point is, the best thing for all of us is to just do something about it. Not talk about it. After all, talk is cheap. And the more we talk, the cheaper it becomes. That's not to say that we should build bubbles of silence around us. We can still communicate ideas. We can still ask for help. But we should do it wisely.

 

[Mars478]

Bad things happen to all of us all of the time. Thing is, very few of them are tragedies. If we lose our job, we look for a new job. If we lose a friend, we try to make amends or look for new friends. If our vehicle breaks down, we try to fix it. If our Mac breaks down, well, that is a true trajedy.
Or not. We can try to figure out how to fix the machine, may it be replacing the hard drive or soldering on new capacitors. Or maybe we go out to look for a replacement computer, if the repair is too daunting. Or maybe we decide to emulate the old hardware, because we realise that the equipment is aging and maintaining it may not be worth while. Or maybe we abandon that vintage Mac and go onto something new.

The point is, the best thing for all of us is to just do something about it. Not talk about it. After all, talk is cheap. And the more we talk, the cheaper it becomes. That's not to say that we should build bubbles of silence around us. We can still communicate ideas. We can still ask for help. But we should do it wisely.

Very well said.

 

[Unknown_K]

So basically nothing has changed but you expect different results.

Forums (and IRC channels) live and die by the carefull selection of rules and ENFORCMENT of those rules, not by different mods encouraging and discouraging the same type of behavoir depending on their moods.

I don't post off the wall topics, and I don't want to see off the wall topics that will encourage me to reply because they are there. Why not remove the lounge from the VIEW NEW POSTS area so people have to go directly there to even see posts. That would pretty much keep threads from being read by the ontopic masses, quit encouraging people to blog and troll, yet allow people to post their misc offtopic and get replies from like minded people. Also how about deleting threads in that section a week after the last post since there is no real content that needs to be kept for generations to come (and I would hate to see googles spiders picking it all up).

 

[~tl]

So basically nothing has changed but you expect different results.

I guess you could call this an appeal to the members in question to change the way they post. I can't say whether it will change anything. I'd guess it probably won't, but I feel it's worth a shot before we take any more drastic action.

Forums (and IRC channels) live and die by the carefull selection of rules and ENFORCMENT of those rules, not by different mods encouraging and discouraging the same type of behavoir depending on their moods.

I'd like to think that we are fairly consistent with our moderation. Sure we make changes to our policies as things crop up, but once we have changed something I'd like to think that all the mods stick by it. Please feel free to PM me with any specific examples or changes to the rules that you feel would benefit the community. I'll happily take them under consideration.

I don't post off the wall topics, and I don't want to see off the wall topics that will encourage me to reply because they are there. Why not remove the lounge from the VIEW NEW POSTS area so people have to go directly there to even see posts. That would pretty much keep threads from being read by the ontopic masses, quit encouraging people to blog and troll, yet allow people to post their misc offtopic and get replies from like minded people. Also how about deleting threads in that section a week after the last post since there is no real content that needs to be kept for generations to come (and I would hate to see googles spiders picking it all up).

Good ideas, I've changed the "View New Posts" link at the top of the page to exclude the Lounge (though you'll have to update your bookmarks if you previously had it saved) and I've also disabled access to the Lounge for guests and bots... which should stop it being indexed by Google. Deleting threads after a week is certainly something that could be considered, but I'm willing to give these things a try first. I guess the ultimate solution would be to lock the Lounge all together...

 

[II2II]

That new new posts link should be checked. I'm getting 9 results with the old new posts link, only one of which is in the Lounge, and three results with the new new posts link.

So basically nothing has changed but you expect different results.

I don't know about that. Behaviour usually seems to change with these pronouncements, so the people around here are pretty good at self regulating in that respect. The problem is that new problems crop up. It's almost as though people need to be told what to do, rather than what not to do.

Good ideas, I've changed the "View New Posts" link at the top of the page to exclude the Lounge (though you'll have to update your bookmarks if you previously had it saved) and I've also disabled access to the Lounge for guests and bots... which should stop it being indexed by Google. Deleting threads after a week is certainly something that could be considered, but I'm willing to give these things a try first. I guess the ultimate solution would be to lock the Lounge all together...

Imagine the response of a guest once they sign up and login as a registered user!

I'm not sure if deleting old posts in the Lounge is a good or bad idea. Deleting stuff may encourage people to behave badly. (Hey, it's going to go bye-bye anyways.) On the other hand, making the Lounge look like a low volume place may discorage posting. Only one way to find out though.

 

[macgeek417]

Good ideas, I've changed the "View New Posts" link at the top of the page to exclude the Lounge (though you'll have to update your bookmarks if you previously had it saved) and I've also disabled access to the Lounge for guests and bots... which should stop it being indexed by Google. Deleting threads after a week is certainly something that could be considered, but I'm willing to give these things a try first. I guess the ultimate solution would be to lock the Lounge all together...

That's got to be the *stupidest* idea i've ever heard. If you are going that route, you should make it an option in the UCP whether or not to include the lounge.

Removing the lounge or anything like that is also extremly stupid, as is removing posts in it after a specified time/restricting access to it. Without the Lounge, this wouldn't be a community, but a random bunch of vintage mac questions... what are you going to do next? remove the Apple I/II/III, Newton, Conquests, and Trading Post forums?! If you keep on doing crap like that, then these forums will go even further downhill. I liked the 68kMLA much better the way it was when I joined.

But that's just my oppinion.

These macs frown apon your actions: xx( xx( xx(

 

[MacJunky]

That's got to be the *stupidest* idea i've ever heard. If you are going that route, you should make it an option in the UCP whether or not to include the lounge. Removing the lounge or anything like that is also extremly stupid, as is removing posts in it after a specified time/restricting access to it. Without the Lounge, this wouldn't be a community, but a random bunch of vintage mac questions... what are you going to do next? remove the Apple I/II/III, Newton, Conquests, and Trading Post forums?! If you keep on doing crap like that, then these forums will go even further downhill. I liked the 68kMLA much better the way it was when I joined.

But that's just my oppinion.

These macs frown apon your actions: xx( xx( xx(

Remember your place.Go back to myspace/facebook if you want lots of random emo blogs.

Remember that this _is_ the 68k Macintosh Liberation Army forum, not dramafest 2009.

Be thankful that you get any off-topic stuff in the first place.

The staff have been pretty forgiving, but that only goes so far. I support removal of lounge posts from the get new posts function but I would not support deletion of old ones. I am not sure if I support removal of the entire lounge or not.

 

[macgeek417]

I know that the Software forum is another kettle of fish, but we're trying to sort out new policies for that, and you may have seen the announcement in that forum.

The reason the software forum is so full of "gimme" and "here is a bunch of abandonware for download" posts is that the old software is getting harder and harder to find. If you are going to restrict people's ability to ask and share software, then you might as well get rid of the Software forum.

Also, you are currenty going against your own actions

Perhaps we can make a sub-forum that only registered members can access. In this forum we can post things which are not prohibited, which are not secret, but which we do not want distributed across Google and other search engines. I think one of the problems with the original eBay threads is that specific sellers and items were mentioned and these were Google searchable.
However, the thread where the seller actually came on the forum and replied to some of our criticisms, while heated, was informational and constructive. I learned some of the motives behind chopping, and how these are valid from a business standpoint.

This is a public forum, not a private members club. End of.

 

[II2II]

If you are going that route, you should make it an option in the UCP whether or not to include the lounge.

Just as I posted a URL to exclude the Lounge while searching for new posts, I will post a URL to include the Lounge:

http://68kmla.org/forums/search.php?search_id=newposts

There is no need to burden the administrators by demanding such a feature when you could easily toss that link in your URL bar (Firefox), Personal Bar (Opera), or whatever IE calls its equivalent feature.

Removing the lounge or anything like that is also extremly stupid, as is removing posts in it after a specified time/restricting access to it.

I agree that removing the Lounge is a bad idea (not stupid, just bad). Restricting Lounge access to registered users is probably a good idea, since it is a place for members to chit-chat. There isn't a good reason why outsiders should be able to just walk into our "club room" and listen to all of our casual gossip. Removing Lounge posts after a week may be a good idea. After all, it is just casual chatting. For the most part, it is just a place for members to kick back and relax. Since few of the Lounge discussions are of timeless value, it may as well be scratched when people lose interest in a thread.

what are you going to do next? remove the Apple I/II/III, Newton, Conquests, and Trading Post forums?!

/me votes to remove the PowerMac sections. } But seriously, the sections you cited are not degrading the mission of this forum -- which is a meeting place for people who are interested in 68k Macs.

I liked the 68kMLA much better the way it was when I joined.

Some of us have been around here for the better part of a decade, and it was a very different place when we joined. Should our interests not be taken into consideration too?

 

[macgeek417]

I guess the members-only mart of the lounge doesn't effect me, and i don't use the View New Posts thing, but removing old Lounge posts is a bad idea.

 

[II2II]

The reason the software forum is so full of "gimme" and "here is a bunch of abandonware for download" posts is that the old software is getting harder and harder to find. If you are going to restrict people's ability to ask and share software, then you might as well get rid of the Software forum.

My aplogies for going Scott on you, but trading "abandonware" is illegal. End of story.

In reality, I could care less what goes through your open TCP/IP ports. That's your decision. What goes on in these forums though, that needs to be on the up and up. There is some potential for the moderators being held liable, particularly since they are more or less active participants in this board. At the very least, it can result in the board being dismantled by legal processes. Whether or not you agree with those legal processes is a moot point because, legally speaking, the people who initiate it would be in the right.

I would also like to add another perspective on software piracy: it has a negative impact within the collecting community and it distorts the historic record. From the perspective of collecting, an anti-piracy pespective would discourage the destruction of extant software media, documentation, inserts, and packaging material. After all, there would be a demand for these other important components of the vintage computing experience, rather than apathy.

With respect to distorting history, I've found that most of the requests and most of the available software focus upon big products and big vendors (e.g. Apple/Claris, Adobe, Microsoft, Macromedia). But there was a lot more to the software experience back in the day, particularly for people who could not afford products that cost several hundred or several thousand dollars. Many of these people used cheaper software from smaller vendors, or shareware, or freeware. Since the latter two can still be distributed legally, perhaps an anal retentive attitude towards piracy would encourage people to go out and explore that other stuff -- before the archives die.

 

[Bunsen]

I've changed the "View New Posts" link / to exclude the Lounge / and I've also disabled access to the Lounge for guests and bots

Both splendid initiatives. On the other hand, I do tend to agree with the following, if technically possible:

make it an option in the UCP whether or not to include the lounge.

On the third hand, there's nothing to stop the reader clicking through to the Lounge to see what's happening.

I nod my head in agreement at the following:

Be thankful that you get any off-topic stuff in the first place. /lounge posts / I would not support deletion of old ones.

removing the Lounge is a bad idea / Restricting Lounge access to registered users is probably a good idea /Some of us have been around here for the better part of a decade, and it was a very different place when we joined.

I am still contemplating the Zen mystery of how one can go against one's own actions. :?:

By the way ~tl, your Open Letter was a delight to read. Well done, and hear hear. Personally, I'm not of the opinion that things have gone downhill notably of late, but then I may have missed a few things. I reckon over the medium term, things have actually improved since say a year ago.

As always, hearty thanks for building this clubhouse. We'll try and play nice.