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*Almost* Fastest PowerBook ever, and more to go.

MidnightCommando

Well-known member
May I suggest to you, asaggynoodle, that you consider using Noctua NT-H1 thermal interface instead of AS5? I've found that NT-H1 is comparably priced and better at conducting heat, to the point where it's now my standard TIM for pretty much everything. That may give you just a little extra headroom for overclocking, I think! :)

 

asaggynoodle

Well-known member
May I suggest to you, asaggynoodle, that you consider using Noctua NT-H1 thermal interface instead of AS5? I've found that NT-H1 is comparably priced and better at conducting heat, to the point where it's now my standard TIM for pretty much everything. That may give you just a little extra headroom for overclocking, I think! :)
After doing the research I really wanted to go with the Coollaboratorys Liquid Ultra, Apparently it's the best there is. But I don't think I can use it here due to the incompatibility of the Aluminum. My next best choice was exactly as you suggested. I figure 2.2Ghz is going to be the point at which I have to actually start to play with the vCore, which i'll probably set to 1.4v to achieve. From what I've heard 7447A overclockers can get up to 1.5v without having actual overheating problems. So I figure I would be pretty much fine with a Repaste with some high performance thermal paste, in addition to this lower TDP chip. Realistically I think I should be able to get to 2.5Ghz. That's probably going to be my Dream goal from here on out. From my calculations not only would that put me in the top spot for the "Fastest Powerbook ever," but also, the fastest G4 single core chip ever. I'm estimating around a 1400 Geekbench score @ 2.5Ghz. 

 

Byrd

Well-known member
The difference in high-end thermal pastes is only a degree or two at best, it's more important that it's applied properly.

 

g4gate

New member
I have a request, could you take a snapshot of the System profiler page detailing the processor for me and post it here?

 

Unknown_K

Well-known member
The difference in high-end thermal pastes is only a degree or two at best, it's more important that it's applied properly.
It also depends on how it dries out over time. I use the cheap stuff from RadioShack or direct from China via ebay. Last tube is something called HY510 Thermal Grease Thermal conductivity: 1.93W/m-k Thermal Resistance: <.225 C-in^2/W

Arctic Silver 5 is rated something like 8.9W/mK but testing done seems to indicate that value is very inflated (somebody did testing comparing Arctic Silver 5 to much cheaper Dow Corning TC-5121). And as said above even if you can get as high as 10W/mK you might only get 1 deg C lower anyway. The big difference is the heatsink and how well it sticks to the CPU.

 
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asaggynoodle

Well-known member
Close, so close, but it's not the fastest PowerBook ever, not yet (at least not from a benchmark standpoint).

https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/21144-haplains-never-ending-quest/?p=263061
Sorry it's been a while since the last update, I screwed up the last motherboard and had to wait for a new one from Australia.. (Go figure).

I started screwing with the FSB, but it sucks because OS X doesn't read the current MaxBus frequency from the register. Only the stock one seems to get reported. 

TADA!

http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench2/2607788

There is still more to go since I figured out the Voltage Nets, I can go all the way up to 1.6v without doing anything exotic. 

This was achieved at a 172Mhz MaxBus with a 12x Multiplier.

The new motherboard I have wasn't stable at 2Ghz on stock voltage like the last one. I'm currently only at 1.4v, I already tested 1.6v out and it runs fine under load with my new NT-H1 thermal paste.

The next step is full blown 194Mhz MaxBus at a 12x multiplier. So 2328Mhz. It should be fine, since 1.6v is a good bump of vCore. I'll be doing this sometime soon. 

I could still play with the multiplier, but I got a little scared off when I took the board out and it didn't work at 12.5x. Turns out the DFS setting on the Motherboard doesn't support half steps... *Sigh*

Anything above 12x requires atleast 3, 0402 resistors to be moved on the bottom of the board. So no thank you.

I found it interesting even though the RAM and CPU are both Overclocked now, the Memory performance isn't improved.

So officially the fastest Powerbook Ever? Please?

 
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Gorgonops

Moderator
Staff member
So officially the fastest Powerbook Ever? Please?
Nah, we're going to keep throwing into your face the fact that Apple *did* make a prototype dual G4 which hypothetically might have been just the teeniest bit faster forever. ;)

(I also know someone who *swears* to have once actually had their fingers on a G5 Powerbook prototype, but I've been taking that one with a "pictures or it didn't happen" grain of salt since the day I heard it. Not that I believe that would necessarily outrun your overclocks even if it was real, given the G5's spotty performance reputation.)

 

Unknown_K

Well-known member
I don't see why Apple wouldn't have made a mockup or a G5 laptop. IBM made a Thinkpad with a full blown desktop P4 and managed to cool it (G40/G41 series).

 

asaggynoodle

Well-known member
I don't see why Apple wouldn't have made a mockup or a G5 laptop. IBM made a Thinkpad with a full blown desktop P4 and managed to cool it (G40/G41 series).
I've come to the conclusion apple intentionally crippled the PowerPC mobile options there at the end. You have to figure the Intel/Apple negotiations had to have been at least a year or two. That would have given plenty of time for Apple to come up with a road map to incorporate x86 into their lineup. By late 2005 there was no competitive reason not to have either a Dual G4, or some kind of "G5" solution. *Puts Tinfoil hat on* What I'm trying to say, is that I PERSONALLY believe that Apple had intentionally handicapped the mobile options so that the performance comparisons between the last G4 PowerBook, and the first MacBook with x86 looked much larger than they had actually been. I mean, from a marketing standpoint that is probably the best thing you could have ever done. That would boost sales as everyone wants "40% FASTER!" performance from the year before.

I might be completely wrong here, but I don't understand how you can have a nearly 3Ghz Quadcore PowerPC chip in your desktops that was performance competitive with any of the Intel Offerings. Then your highest performance Notebook is still running with a Single core chip at half the clock speed. That's just too big of a spread to make me believe they had been trying their hardest to compete.

On the Overclocking side of things, I don't think I'm going to be getting much higher. I increased the MaxBus to the next step which is only a 5Mhz bump (12x) so 60Mhz Clock Speed. That was NOT stable. I started getting Geekbench scores in the range of about ~600. Clearly something was not working right. Changed out all of the RAM, though it might be something there. Same problem persisted. So I bumped up the voltage to 1.60v and gave it a swiz. I couldn't even get it to boot up fully. No crash, no nothing, just would shut off. I noticed there was literally no heat, not even the fans came on before the shutdown. So I'd come to the conclusion the VRM's couldn't put out that much power when the Overshoot happened on the CPU. Went back, changed it down to 1.5v, and got it to boot to desktop, but it still was not stable from the power delivery point of view. I could go about 30-45 seconds and the machine would reproduce what had happened at 1.60v. Sometimes It would crash at the Apple logo during boot up, so same problem as before.

Looks like I've hit the limit on this board, nowhere near what was doable on the old one though. Seems to be very much luck of the draw in terms of the untapped potential on these chips.

 

Gorgonops

Moderator
Staff member
I don't see why Apple wouldn't have made a mockup or a G5 laptop. IBM made a Thinkpad with a full blown desktop P4 and managed to cool it (G40/G41 series).
The reason I'm a bit skeptical about the particular eyewitness account is they claimed to have had a G5 prototype that was a completely buttoned-up machine that looked "basically like a regular powerbook but thicker", not an obviously prototype thing with acrylic case parts, etc. Not to say it's impossible that they got as far as making fully-skinned machines, I'm sure Apple has the resources at their disposal to mill out some one-off aluminum enclosures, but... I dunno. The eyewitness in question is mostly reliable but has been known to fluff the truth now and again.

And, yeah, there were actually quite a few "laptops" that had full-blown P4s in them. For instance, Alienware made some gaming laptops that did have batteries but could run on them for about 30 minutes, tops. A guy at my company once pushed through an order for a few of them because he wanted laptops that could take 4GB of RAM when most systems topped out at two for a mobile VMware lab, and they were incredibly ridiculous things. I can understand why Apple wouldn't have felt comfortable slapping their name on something that ridiculous given the "stylish products" focus of the company. I'm sure there would have been Mac-using Pros willing to buy a brick if the performance would have justified it, but it would have been a *very* niche product.

 

Unknown_K

Well-known member
I would think Apple quit putting R&D into the G4 laptops because of the switch to x86 coming down the road. And if companies heard rumors of Apples switch to x86 they probably didn't bother with speed upgrades for the G4 and G5 chips. The dual core x86 chips would have killed any speed increase they could get for the G4 laptops anyway.

 

Gorgonops

Moderator
Staff member
I've come to the conclusion apple intentionally crippled the PowerPC mobile options there at the end. You have to figure the Intel/Apple negotiations had to have been at least a year or two. That would have given plenty of time for Apple to come up with a road map to incorporate x86 into their lineup. By late 2005 there was no competitive reason not to have either a Dual G4, or some kind of "G5" solution. *Puts Tinfoil hat on* What I'm trying to say, is that I PERSONALLY believe that Apple had intentionally handicapped the mobile options so that the performance comparisons between the last G4 PowerBook, and the first MacBook with x86 looked much larger than they had actually been. I mean, from a marketing standpoint that is probably the best thing you could have ever done. That would boost sales as everyone wants "40% FASTER!" performance from the year before.
I dunno. Intel's "Pentium M" chip was a real game-changer and Apple seems to have been caught really off-guard by it. The first Pentium M machines (which also included USB 2) came out about 6 months before the USB 2.0-equipped Aluminum Powerbooks, and I remember being shocked at just how well they performed compared to the 867mhz Titanium I had at the time. If you look up Geekbench results you can see just how badly the Pentium M *crushed* the G4 on a *clock-for-clock* basis. A January 2003 vintage Dell D600 with a 1.3ghz Banias Pentium M manages a score of 879; that's better than a 1.5ghz Powerbook a year and a half newer, and it manages it with a comparable power draw. While Apple certainly *could* have compensated by slapping in another G4 and going dual the resulting system would suffer accordingly in terms of weight, heat, battery life, etc.

Apple really was pretty boned here. The G5 didn't become remotely suitable for use in a laptop until the 970FX came out in 2004; to hit the sort of heat/battery profile Apple would have wanted it would have been limited at running in the very low 1ghz range at a time when Pentium M's were pushing up to the 2ghz mark, and PWRficient's Hail Mary attempt at an alternative also came a day late and a dollar short. (It's possibly worth noting that the Amiga X1000, which uses the one model of PWRficient CPU to actually see anything approaching widespread use and wasn't available until after the Intel transition was a done deal, actually seems to be slower than most of Apple's G5 desktops.) So... yeah, not sure I buy the conspiracy theory. I'm sure it would have been *possible* in some theoretical universe for Apple to have turned the tide by investing more in CPU development (IBM basically developed the G5 as a favor to them, only to have Apple repeatedly bite the hand trying to feed it), but Apple's not really a computer company, they're a consumer product company. Intel simply had more suitable off-the-shelf parts for what they wanted.

 
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Unknown_K

Well-known member
I wonder if down the road Apple will invest some of that extra cash into designing and building a custom desktop/laptop chip (or just buy AMD with change from the couch cushions). Cell Phone processors are getting pretty decent these days.

 

Gorgonops

Moderator
Staff member
Apple certainly does make more-than-decent ARM products, but I don't see them making a non-Intel "Mac" any time soon. I mean, let's be honest here, Apple hasn't exactly been investing a lot of effort in their computer line lately, and any ARM-based "Macintosh" would require both significant engineering effort and would pose issues with user education and expectations. (After all, Microsoft ended up confusing a lot of customers with the limitations of Windows RT vs. regular Windows regarding legacy software, and while Apple has a more positive track record with transparently handling the need for multi-platform code there is the issue here that unlike previous CPU migration efforts the ARM wouldn't be powerful enough to provide acceptable emulation for existing Intel binaries.) Not to say that Apple would never introduce some sort of "ARMbook", but if it happens it's far more likely to be an outgrowth of the IOS product family than a "Mac", per se.. Arguably it's already happened with the iPad Pro.

Really, when you consider the moribund state of the Mac Pro and how stale their computer line in general has become one has to wonder how long they're going to keep bothering.

 
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