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SE/30 and CF card issues -- Please Help!!

mdent23

mdent23

6502
Hello all,

I acquired a recapped SE/30 about a year ago. All was well until early this year when the notorious Quantum hard disk failed.
The machine shipped with System 6.0.8 and before this failure I had already purchased a USB floppy drive and floppies to create install disks (using a TiBook with Tiger so I can format and write images / files with Mac OS Standard formatting). I successfully upgraded to System 7.0.1; shortly after this, the drive failed.

Once this happened, I bought a RaizinMonster (CF to SCSI adapter) from artmix and a 4 GB SanDisk Extreme CF card. My dilemma is that the SE/30 will not recognize the CF card (using a boot disk and a patched copy of HD SC Setup 7.3.5). I downloaded Lido 7 onto the TiBook but the application is too large to fit onto my System 7 boot disk.

Is it possible to create a barebones boot disk that has room for Lido?

Also, what is the reason why HD SC Setup won't recognize the RaizinMonster/CF card as a SCSI device (I removed all the jumper pegs for ID=0 and Termination=ON for internal use)? Is an AztecMonster instead the way to go / is there any preliminary formatting I have to run the CF card through in order to use with Apple's utility?

A lot of questions I know, but I miss using this machine. I even found an ImageWriter II to use with it for old-school word processing.
Any help with this is much appreciated.

 
Hi mdent23!

I have artmix scsi-cf adaptor and tried some cf cards on it.Same as other scsi-ide-cf converters,it has compatibility issue.In my case Transcend and SunDisk cf-cards wok fine,but others (and some from Transcend) don't.so you want to be sure which cf card you are using.

I hope this helps your case.

 
Thank you all for your help. I did some digging in the meantime and found a device called Mac ROM-inator II (http://www.bigmessowires.com/mac-rom-inator-ii/) that allows the SE/30 to boot from a custom ROM chip, thereby allowing me to use floppies, since the FD wouldn't be occupied by a boot disk.

Just purchased it yesterday though, so while I'm waiting for it to arrive I will attempt the solutions mentioned above.

BadGoldEagle, thank you for the image file. Immensely helpful.

takimoto, it is a SanDisk card, however it is a 4 GB card so I will be careful with partition size since anything above a 2 GB partition won't be compatible.

Either way, I will post the results here; best-case scenario I will be able to format using the 6.0.8 + Lido solution, then I will have a formatted CF card running System 7, and a nifty ROM that I will be able to boot from in the future!!

Thanks again.

~mdent23

 
Hi mdent23.

I don't have 4GB of SunDisk CF,but I had tried 2GB SunDisk cf which has 1 partition,worked fine for me.I think it is free from issue if you are careful with 2GB limit.

Cheers!

 
I re-checked my config and found I am using SunDisk 8GB cf.only to suggest your 4GB SunDisk cf  will work fine if you are careful 2GB limit when my 8GB works.

Hope it helps.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
UPDATE:

I was able to create a 6.0.8 + Lido boot disk with no problem.

Now I am encountering an error when running Lido to format/partition the CF card, to the effect of "Arbitration failed! Check all SCSI device connections and terminations).

I have ensured that the cable is properly connected to the board and the RaizinMonster. By default, the jumper settings of the RaizinMonster give it ID 0 and Termination ON.

Not sure what I have to do at this point to allow Lido to see the device?

Welcoming your thoughts...

 
Did you try sticking a passive terminator on the outside SCSI interface? It may sound strange, but sometimes it can help when the SCSI termination is wonky on older macs. (This is typically seen when someone has a Zip drive attached and the system will boot from the internal HD, but it fails when the Zip is not attached)

 
Last edited by a moderator:
takimoto said:
Hi mdent23!

I have artmix scsi-cf adaptor and tried some cf cards on it.Same as other scsi-ide-cf converters,it has compatibility issue.In my case Transcend and SunDisk cf-cards wok fine,but others (and some from Transcend) don't.so you want to be sure which cf card you are using.

I hope this helps your case.
Click to expand...

takimoto said:
Hi mdent23.

I don't have 4GB of SunDisk CF,but I had tried 2GB SunDisk cf which has 1 partition,worked fine for me.I think it is free from issue if you are careful with 2GB limit.

Cheers!
Click to expand...
SunDisk?

I do know that there are some narfarious companies out there selling counterfeit CFs out there. They look very much like the real thing but you need to examine them much closer. Labels would be blurry, but they are improving on that so looking at labels wont tell you anything unless you know what you are looking for. You would need a PC with a "Hard Drive Detect" in its BIOS to spot most of them. Let me get my notes:

A SanDisk 4GB CF will show up on the PC BIOS as:

Capacity: 4000MB, Cylinders: 7751; Heads: 16; PreComp: 0; Landing Zone: 7550, Sectors: 63.

Of the couple of counterfeit ones (I got from ebay) reports the capacity as 4100MB or 4096MB; and they do have the same issues you mentioned above.

Similarly, a Transcend Media CF will show up on the PC BIOS as:

Capacity: 4206MB, Cylinders: 8150; Heads: 16; PreComp: 0; Landing Zone: 8149, Sectors: 63.

And of the couple of counterfeit ones (I got from ebay, again) reports the capacity as 4096MB or less; and they do have the same issues you mentioned above.

Many counterfeit CF will not boot, though there are some that will. At best they are good for storage of data and nothing more, if you want to risk using it. and they are often smaller and slower than the actual CFs in question (you will need a "Hard Drive test" program to see this but sometimes it is way too obvious to see. One counterfeit Transcend Media CF I have says its 200X but it appears to run at 100X - a major and noticeable difference.)

Personally, I would put those non-bootable CFs into a pile and test them on a PC later on. And do note as to where you got them so you do not end up getting more of them. The same with the (real) ones that do work - note as to where you got them and always go to that supplier when you need to get more.

Sometimes this trick works but not always to get a 'counterfeit' CF that wont boot to boot:

Partition it, format and install DOS on the CF with:

format (drive-id): /s /u

and then check if it boots up DOS. In most, not all, cases, it will boot DOS. Once you do get it to boot up in DOS, put it into the Mac and repartition it, format it and install the system on it (make sure the System folder is blessed). I find that in about 80% of the time this works, but I was using a PowerBook 1400, and not a Mac SE\30.

Here's an Ebay article about the subject on how to spot a counterfeit CF:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/FAKE-SanDisk-Extreme-Compact-Flash-Cards-Exposed-/10000000001456526/g.html

-That is my 2 cents on the subject. I wish you the best on this.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Elfen said:
SunDisk?

I do know that there are some narfarious companies out there selling counterfeit CFs out there. They look very much like the real thing but you need to examine them much closer. Labels would be blurry, but they are improving on that so looking at labels wont tell you anything unless you know what you are looking for. You would need a PC with a "Hard Drive Detect" in its BIOS to spot most of them....
Click to expand...
Thank you for your input Elfen. I think this was just a misspell on the part of takimoto. I did indeed buy a 4 GB "SanDisk" card from Amazon ( SanDisk Extreme CompactFlash 4 GB Memory Card 40MB/s SDCFX-004G-X46 ) so I can assure you it is genuine.

As of yesterday I have solved this issue (which I will detail in my next post below), making for one of the happiest weekends involving computer repair in my life :D

// mdent23

 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Hello again All,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]SUCCESS[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]!!! I can finally breathe easy after a couple months of fingernail-biting Mac-life-support-limbo...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]I will detail the solution below for anyone interested, hopefully this will help others with CF card issues in the future as well. (LINKS marked throughout and included at the end for reference)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]TL;DR[/SIZE]  [SIZE=9pt]Ensure that you have an active terminator installed on the external SCSI port before attempting to format a CF card with Lido 7. Ensure your jumper settings on the SCSI > CF adapter are set to ID=0 and on-board Active Termination=ON for internal use (on artmix's RaizinMonster this means all jumper pins removed).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]On Saturday I received two packages I was expecting:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]1) An DB-25 male (external SCSI) active terminator from SF cable (thank you to Paralel for bringing my attention to external termination; this unit was $8.77 including shipping; I also went with active termination over passive because of the old wiring in my building, just to be safe) (LINK 1)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]2) The [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Mac ROM-inator II (LINK 2) that allows the SE/30 to boot into System 7 from a custom ROM chip (also handles 32-bit addressing, so you don't end up having to install MODE32 to max the RAM out at 128 MB; I currently have 32 MB installed but plan to max it out at some point)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]For good measure, I re-formatted the CF card using a USB reader connected to my TiBook (Sabrent makes a decent one which you can pick up on Amazon for cheap ([/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]LINK 3[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]), and Disk Utility on Mac OS X Tiger which allows you to read/write Mac OS Standard floppies (LINK 4) with a USB floppy drive (LINK 5) and partition storage devices using the Mac OS Standard partition scheme.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]After installing the active terminator and seating the custom ROM SIMM into the tray on the logic board, I booted the SE/30, choosing the RAM disk option. To repeat, with artmix's RaizinMonster (SCSI > CF adapter) (LINK 6), I had removed all of the jumper pins, which sets the SCSI ID to 0 and ensures on-board active termination is ON for internal use.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]After being greeted with a System 7 desktop (running off the ROM chip), I inserted the floppy that BadGoldEagle provided the image for, running Lido 7 off the floppy.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]NO MORE ARBITRATION / TERMINATION ERROR!! After scanning the SCSI bus, Lido found my RaizinMonster SCSI > CF adapter just fine. I was able to format the card; I chose to split into three partitions:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]1) 1 GB "Macintosh HD" - The primary partition I will use with System 7[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]2) 700 MB "System 6" - I will load System 6 onto this partition and switch between the two using System Picker when desired.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]3) 2 GB "FreeSpace" - I will use this final partition for long-term storage of applications/files; to minimize risk of wearing out the boot partitions (CF cards have a limited number of write cycles)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]The remainder was left as unformatted free space.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Lido formatted and partitioned just fine, finally mounting all three partitions as separate hard disks on the desktop![/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]I rebooted from my System 6.0.8 install floppy, and installed the system software with no problem onto the Macintosh HD partition.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Eventually I will run through the upgrade cycle (creating several install floppies) to get it all the way to System 7.5.5 which is where I will draw the line. There is a great little site called fenestrated.net that walks you through installing Classic Mac system software and includes links to patches and enhancements to get your 68k Mac running at its best! (LINK 7)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]As I detailed in a previous post, this has turned into the best-case scenario. I now have two boot partitions on the CF card, plenty of free space for storage, a custom ROM I can boot off of in emergencies with the added bonus of built-in 32-bit addressing, which as said before eliminates the need of installing the MODE32 utility for maximum RAM utilization.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]The SE/30 now proudly sits on my bedroom desk, where my girlfriend and I can write stories, screenplays and the like distraction-free, with an ImageWriter II for that satisfying retro dot matrix print feel.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Next goals include getting Ethernet running on this machine! Thank you all for your assistance, this was a definite team effort and I couldn't have arrived at this solution without your input.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]// mdent23[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]LINKS:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]LINK 1: http://bit.ly/1PXu0d4 >> DB25 male (external SCSI) active terminator[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]LINK 2: http://bit.ly/1U48ek4 >> Mac ROM-inator II (custom bootable ROM chip with built in 32-bit addressing)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]LINK 3: http://amzn.to/1VUYUnw >> Sabrent CF card reader on Amazon[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]LINK 4: http://amzn.to/1OlpmFe >> Maxell Mac formatted floppy disks (10-pack on Amazon)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]LINK 5: http://amzn.to/1Ynothn >> Sabrent external USB floppy drive[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]LINK 6: http://ebay.to/28xkzXI >> RaizinMonster (50-pin SCSI to CF card adapter, artmix in Japan)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]LINK 7: http://bit.ly/1ZL8A2V >> fenestrated.net (a great site detailing Classic system software installation processes)[/SIZE]

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Glad to hear the terminator worked.

Although, if the terminator fixes the problem, I believe it indicates a problem inside the system related to the SCSI bus. I think it means one of the filters on the logic board has gone south. Someone else here can probably remember more about it than I can.

 
Paralel said:
Glad to hear the terminator worked.

Although, if the terminator fixes the problem, I believe it indicates a problem inside the system related to the SCSI bus. I think it means one of the filters on the logic board has gone south. Someone else here can probably remember more about it than I can.
Click to expand...
Paralel, if this is the case, could it have contributed to the reason that the Quantum drive failed?? The seller noted stiction in the hard disk when I bought the machine; I cracked the case open to check for the notorious disintegrating rubber loops that the head will stick to but they were in great shape!

Incredible if it was electrical interference that wasn't allowing the disk to function properly.

Probably best practice to run the machine with the terminator attached for the time being, no?

takimoto said:
Oh! sorry!

Grad to hear you got it right!
Click to expand...
I'm glad too, takimoto. Lightning fast now too. Boots 7.0.1 in 8 SECONDS!!!

 
Oh yeah, if you try to disconnect the terminator, its likely the CF will fail to boot. Its likely the mechanical drive was experiencing the same issue. The only way to check is to have the terminator in place and hook up the old drive. You may find it actually boots up just fine with the old drive. If stiction seems like an issue, give the drive a good rap on the side before hooking it up, that usually solves stiction issues.

The terminator is more or less a permanent solution to the problem, but it does mean some work needs to be done on the logic board if you ever want to run it without the terminator in place. I want to say Bourns Filter has gone bad, but I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't 100%, SE/30's aren't my specialty.

 
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