60% Mac Reproductions & KBDs: Printable today, scalable to full size tomorrow?

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Thanks to @ronan's Cheap and simple ADB to USB converter thread and digging around the supported keyboards I discovered 60% gaming KBD/KeyCap availability.

Not one for emulation, but Raspberry Pi and inexpensive LCDs in the proper ranges ought to make for interesting desktop ornament possibilities in the here and now?

 

[aladds]

So a bigger version of this, essentially?

Sounds like a great idea!

 

[LaPorta]

Talk about a truly portable Mac!

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

60% Macintosh Portable using a 1080p LCD! I'm all in!

So a bigger version of this, essentially?

Sounds like a great idea!

Exactly! Didn't have time to look up your project to give you credit. That along with something that would be about about a 60% setup I did at some point using a CD-SC and downscaled KBD would be it. Dunno if a 60% Nimitz Class AEK would be printable though.

 

[kitsunesoba]

3D printing a keyboard case is definitely possible, I've seen a number of projects doing that. Not too many restrictions there, just need to make sure to design standoffs and screw holes such that they can have threaded metal inserts melted into them with a soldering iron to prevent stripping out.

3D printed keycaps are also possible, but require a more precise/capable 3D printer, especially if you're making double shot caps where the legends are composed of a second layer of differently colored plastic. The hardest part is fitting the caps to the switches: too loose and the caps pop off with a breeze, too tight and they become difficult to remove without damaging your switches.

For extra authenticity, you could use Matias switches which are modern reproductions of the white/cream ALPS switches used in many beige era Apple keyboards.

 

[Gorgonops]

Dunno if a 60% Nimitz Class AEK would be printable though.

Just to be clear on something: Doesn't "60% keyboard" generally refer to a keyboard that has a reduced number of keys, IE, like one of those (hateful in my opinion but I know some people love them) "Happy Hacker" keyboards that were a fad 20 years ago? IE, something like this?

*Not* like what I'm getting the impression that you're talking about here, which would be a keyboard which has the normal layout but the keys are 60% full size? (Maybe that's not what you're saying, it just kind of read that way?)

Trying to type on a "60% scale" keyboard would be pretty rough. That's a bit smaller than the claimed scale of the (in)famous Poqet PC, which was about the size of a VHS tape.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

KeyCaps sets seem to be available in 60% size, making them about the same size as a KeySwitch? Dunno you may bee right, I haven't come with a definitive guide. Sizes mentioned full, TKL, 75%, 60% and 40%

Ptherwise. less travel between keys could make for faster keyboarding, gameplay. I've got a KBD (DAUPHIN?) that's approx 60% of full size and it's not terrible for typing, then again I coexist with Duo KBDs on an amicable basis.

edit. dunno, sounds like you may be right about std keys being full size, drat!

Tiny Keyboard Experiment: Living with the 'Minivan' - ExtremeTech

I've been using this tiny 40% keyboard for a week to see how well I adapt (if at all).

www.extremetech.com

 

[Cory5412]

Dunno you may bee right

Gorgonops is correct here.

60%, and a few other different sizes, refers to the layout not the physical size of the keys themselves.

A keyboard scaled to 60% of its physical size would be completely untypable unless you built it as a thumbboard, so while it would be cute, it wouldn't really make a reasonably usable replica.

That said -- I'd be interested in seeing what it would look like to build "The Apple Keyboard M0116 layout but without the numpad" - mechanical is probably the only way to custom build that.

The Apple Adjustable Keyboard without the num-pad installed was one of my favorites during my own first era of vintage mac because I typically had limited desk width availble.

 

[Gorgonops]

You will sometimes see percentages thrown out in relation to "small" keyboards; for instance, when NetBooks were a thing you'd see their keyboards being described as "92%" or "87%", often in combination with the word "pitch". In this case the percentage would often refer only to a single dimension of the keys, IE, the horizontal spacing would be 90%-ish of normal keyboard, meaning the keycaps were narrower but about as "tall" as normal keys.

How usable a "60%" keyboard would be is debatable, and probably depends on if we're talking about area or linear scale. IE, a keyboard which is only 60% as wide (and tall) as a normal keyboard (for instance, the AEK is about 18 inches wide and 8" tall, so this model would measure about 11"x5") would have keycaps with only 36% the area of a normal keyboard. Holding a ruler up to the keys on a normal keyboard that means you're going to be left with keys only about 1/3rd of an inch apart, which is definitely far too small for any off the shelf mechanical keyboard switch. (There are surface-mount pushbuttons you could use and maybe engineer some way to stick a 3D-printed keycap to, but the feel would leave a lot to be desired.) And yeah, anything approaching "touch typing" just isn't going to happen.

A 60% *area* keyboard (which is close to the aforementioned Poqet PC, which was described as having a "38% smaller" keyboard) would be significantly bigger, about "77%" pitch using the NetBook formula. That gives you about 1/2" between keys vs. the standard 3/4" pitch. Some people claimed to be able to touch type on the Poqet, so if you have dainty fingers and the patience to learn it then maybe that would work. But it also wouldn't be a *lot* smaller than the real thing at almost 14" wide, so the justification for it seems a little... tenuous, to me.

(Looking at the Outemu switches in my knockoff mechanical keyboard if you crammed them right next to each other you might *just* be able to hit a 77% spacing, but the keycap would have to hover entirely above the switch, it couldn't come down around it, so making a scale model of a *particular* keyboard is probably out unless it's a really fat one, like an old IBM Beamspring.)

 

[Cory5412]

You will sometimes see percentages thrown out in relation to "small" keyboards; for instance, when NetBooks were a thing you'd see their keyboards being described as "92%" or "87%",

*heavy sigh*

I had managed to forget netbook keyboards.

SO, yes, percentages are used for both.

60% in the context of the above-pictured keyboard means the keys themselves and the spacing is 100%, there are 60% as many keys as an AT 101-105 or so layout keyboard.

The early default Apple II and Mac keyboards were 60 and 80-ish percent, respectively.

There's another format called tenkeyless or TKL which, idly, is probably what I'd want in a new modern keyboard because I do like the nav pad and the inverted-T arrows. I still have "narrow desk, many computers" as a thematic problem.

 

[kitsunesoba]

In the context of mechanical keyboards, percentages almost exclusively refer to number of keys. Aside from a tiny tiny handful of people pulling rare half-size switches from old boards, almost nobody in that community does anything with keycaps or switches smaller than the standard. There are a few low profile switch fans though, particularly in the ortholinear crowd.

 

[Gorgonops]

I had managed to forget netbook keyboards.

SO, yes, percentages are used for both.

Yeah, I assumed the NetBook usage was the original source of Trash's confusion. But certainly today outside of anything but a laptop context a "percent" is almost certainly going to mean key count.

There's another format called tenkeyless or TKL which, idly, is probably what I'd want in a new modern keyboard because I do like the nav pad and the inverted-T arrows. I still have "narrow desk, many computers" as a thematic problem.

It seems like if you're browsing, say, Amazon listings "80%" and "TKL" are sometimes used interchangeably, although strictly speaking it appears that "80%" is *intended* to refer to a more compact layout where the cursor T-pad is snuggled in under the right shift key and the ins/del/pg-up/pg-down/etc keys are arranged in a vertical line. (This layout goes back a long way; I have a mini-PS/2 keyboard from the early 2000s that's not only that layout but has slightly cramped "92%-in-the-NetBook-sense" keys, and some laptops have essentially the same layout.) There's also another layout that crops up that is physically about the same size as "TKL" but instead of having the INS/DEL/HOME/etc cluster above the T-arrows it crams in a numeric pad that doubles as those keys. (The keycounts for these layouts are something like ""proper 80%"=84, "TKL"=87, and "whatever they call that other one"=89.)

I'm using a cheap mechanical "TKL" on my work machine and I really like it, with the one proviso that I kind of wish it had a Fn key option for giving you an embedded keypad in the letter keys, like PC laptops used to do until fairly recently. Not because anyone in their right mind actually uses an embedded keypad, but because it can be useful if you need to run an emulator or something to be able to generate keystrokes for every possible key defined in the 101/104 key layout. (Some terrible old piece of software might use the "NUM LOCK" as a toggle or other such shenanigans.) Although realistically you could probably work around it (in an emulator at least) with an onscreen keyboard widget or whatnot, and it certainly hasn't actually turned out to be much a problem in practice.

 

[Cory5412]

Oh Fn numberpad would be real neat.

I predominantly use ThinkPad USB keyboards on my work computers, they're a little quieter and the editing keys are there and it's generally good enough. If there was a USB version of the keyboard on the Surface Laptop, I'd consider it because that's a fine layout for my work needs, as well.

My keyboard standards are really low overall and my favorites tend to be fairly generic keyboards. Dell QuietKey, Sun Type 6 and Type 7, Apple Keyboard II, ThinkPad USB keyboards (I have one of each mirroring T40 plus numpad, T420, and the newest style), Apple's own slim USB/BT keyboards, Microsoft slim wireless keyboards (although MS has traditionally done this segment poorly so while they do have a few newer smaller wireless keyboards, I'm hesitant to try for $70 a pop.)

Actually, fun memory:


I had Microsoft bluetooth keyboard/mouse this pair for a while, back in 2012 or so when I first got my Surface RT and was unwise enough to get the "Touch" RT keyboard. So, I bought whatever these two were called and as you can imagine they are tiny. They functionally work fine other than being mildly uncomfortable to actually use because of the small size. The stand you see behind that tablet (which is probably a representation of a 7 or 8-inch windows 8 tablet) would unfold and cover the keyboard, which was how you turned it off.

I could not touch type on one of them, but I was doing that hilarious thing I do where I try the hot new thing. After I got the real keyboard for the RT, I used them a bit as a kb/mouse for the Mac mini I was using as a sideboard, and then after that I bought one of the contra-revenue Windows 8 tablets (except: the expensive semi-premium version, but I didn't buy all the way up the stack into enough ram/storage for it to be actually useful, or to include a digitizer pen). Since then they mostly idle until I have some weird sideboard use case or I want to go use the Venue 8 Pro again.

Anyway, that keyboard's pretty much why I distrust all reduced-size keyboards. Between that and the eee PC keyboard, I'm mostly suspicious that non-full-sized keyboards (in the pitch/spacing/keycap size sense) aren't going to be useful or desirable to most people.

 

[Gorgonops]

My keyboard standards are really low overall and my favorites tend to be fairly generic keyboards.

Just for laughs you really should give one of those knockoff-Cherry-Clone mechanical keyboards that Amazon is full of a try. If you don't mind slightly weird round keycaps I can personally vouch for this one. (I posted about it a few months ago after getting a pair of them for a ridiculous $12.99 each. I still feel like I stole them. They're $19 now but I feel like they're easily worth that.)

If you want more conventional keycaps here's one with hot-swappable keys for about the same price; I have a full-size keyboard with the same brand and it works well too, I'm just a *little* iffy about recommending the hot-swappable ones because I had a couple contact issues with mine that caused keybounce until I pulled the switches and reseated them. (The other is soldered.)

In case you're not up with the Cherry lingo "Blue" switches are the loudest and clickiest. "Brown" might be better for you if you don't want something quite as obnoxious but still very satisfyingly clicky. "Red" is a linear response without so much of a click, but you still get satisfying travel compared to a membrane. I'd probably suggest "brown" as the best starter unless you *know* you hate clicks.