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Getting my macintosh plus to boot from a external hard drive


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Hi

 

I have a macintosh plus (4 Mb) and would like it to boot from an external hard drive.

I don't succeed however to do that. What am I doing wrong?

 

This is the setup:

setup.JPG

(please note the battery is missing)

 

The back of my plus:

achterzijdeplus.JPG

 

The back of the drive:

achterzijdedrive.JPG

 

The drive:

drive.JPG

 

(Have i terminated everything correctly?)

 

Look at this movie of the bootup first.

http://webs.hogent.be/~054169dv/mac/boot.mpg

As you can see, i boot up the drive first, and then i boot up my macintosh plus. However it keeps asking for a system disk.

 

So i insert a system disk.

Booting up gives me the following dekstop:

desktop.JPG

(note: the hard drive show up)

 

About Finder shows the following:

aboutfinderdisk.JPG

 

The contents of my hard drive:

blesseddrive.JPG

(Note: the system folder is blessed)

 

The information dialog of my hard drive:

driveinfo.JPG

 

The contents of the system folder on my hard drive:

drivelayout.JPG

 

I get the following error when i try to open something on my floppy disk:

filestartupdisk.JPG

And when i try to open up finder on my hard drive:

finderstartdrive.JPG

 

I can switch to the finder on my hard drive by opening finder with opt+command

finderstrarteddrive.JPG

 

But when i try to open a file then i get the following:

soundstartdrive.JPG

 

Anyone knows what's the problem?

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Well, seeing as how you can actually mount and access the data on the HD one would assume (from what I have experienced anyway) that your termination is ok.

Is it just me or is the label on that HD looking like it belongs on a PATA/ATA/IDE drive?

 

Also, I am completely unwilling to watch the startup video as I am stuck in an area with no faster wired connections than dialup.

 

Where did the OS in the HD come from? perhaps you should disable and archive the old existing one and install a new OS then test that?

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Well, seeing as how you can actually mount and access the data on the HD one would assume (from what I have experienced anyway) that your termination is ok.

Is it just me or is the label on that HD looking like it belongs on a PATA/ATA/IDE drive?

 

Also, I am completely unwilling to watch the startup video as I am stuck in an area with no faster wired connections than dialup.

 

Where did the OS in the HD come from? perhaps you should disable and archive the old existing one and install a new OS then test that?

 

It is a IDE drive indeed, so says:

http://www.computerhope.com/hdquantu.htm#prodrive

 

I have formatted the drive and freshly installed system 6.0.8 on it.

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Your SCSI-based Mac will not address an ATA drive unless you set up the ATA drive with a SCSI/ATA adapter. It was my belief that such adapters existed only for 2.5-in drives so that they might be used in PowerBooks—and even then they are scarce and pricey—when 2.5-in SCSI drives looked to be going out of production

 

We have to ask how you have managed to connect from a 50-pin internal ribbon cable (through Apple's economy 25-pin setup at the external port) to a 50-wire cable and (presumably) Centronics-style CN-50 peripheral connector to an essentially 40-pin HDD? One cannot refrain from supposing that an old Quantum LPS or Conner 3.5-in. external SCSI drive will give you fewer difficulties. That includes choices of enclosure, cabling and connectors.

 

de

Edited by Guest
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Looks like a SCSI HD to me. Are there a set of resisters underneath on the circuit board next to the 50 pin SCSI connection? Those older drives had resisters for termination so you don't need an external terminator (if they are still installed on the drive).

 

Find some old mac formatting programs like Micronet 7.x or Lido to format the drive.

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http://webs.hogent.be/~054169dv/mac/unistor6.JPG <-- that looks like a 50pin SCSI drive.

 

That's an Quantum ProDrive ELS

http://www.computerhope.com/hdquantu.htm#prodrive

says it is IDE.

Looks like a SCSI HD to me. Are there a set of resisters underneath on the circuit board next to the 50 pin SCSI connection? Those older drives had resisters for termination so you don't need an external terminator (if they are still installed on the drive).

I think there were resistors indeed, but they have been removed.

Find some old mac formatting programs like Micronet 7.x or Lido to format the drive.

:-/

And where would i be able to find that?...

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That is a SCSI hard drive. The thing that gives it away is the Apple "40" sticker. This means it is 40MB capacity. The first Macs to use an IDE drive were the Quadra / Performa 630s and they had 250MB drives. Any 40MB Apple-branded drive will be SCSI.

 

The problem you're experiencing may be SCSI related. Try adjusting the number wheel on the back of the hard drive unit so that it reads "6". When the Plus scans for SCSI devices it starts at 7 and counts down, so it'll find a drive with ID 6 quickly. Also try booting it without the SCSI terminator.

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That is a SCSI hard drive. The thing that gives it away is the Apple "40" sticker. This means it is 40MB capacity. The first Macs to use an IDE drive were the Quadra / Performa 630s and they had 250MB drives. Any 40MB Apple-branded drive will be SCSI.

 

The problem you're experiencing may be SCSI related. Try adjusting the number wheel on the back of the hard drive unit so that it reads "6". When the Plus scans for SCSI devices it starts at 7 and counts down, so it'll find a drive with ID 6 quickly. Also try booting it without the SCSI terminator.

 

I adjusted the SCSI number to 6, but that didn't help.

Booting without the SCSI terminator shows no hard drive at all in the Finder.

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You have (had) everything hooked up fine. The very fact that you can see the HD on your desktop, and access its contents, shows that you have terminations set right, etc. It also shows that the drive is basically ok. You can leave the ID at 6 (it shaves a couple of seconds off of boot time), or go back to your original value of 2. N'importe.

 

Here are some things to try:

 

1) Reinstall the system. It could be that you simply have a damaged system folder.

 

2) Reformat the drive. It could be that the system folder is damaged because you have a bad sector. Since it appears that you don't have too much on that drive at the moment, it doesn't seem like you'll be wiping out too much of value. I'd recommend doing this just as a matter of course in this case, prior to step 1).

 

3) Try power cycling the drive after it's already gotten up to speed. I've had problems with older drives that had developed slow startup due to incipient "stiction" or degraded bearing lubrication. The firmware on the controller expects things to happen within a certain time, and a slow spinup can cause boot failure, without preventing mounting. Once it's spun up (and all disk activity has ceased), power down long enough for the disk to slow its rotation considerably without stopping, and then power back up. Then, power the Mac off and back on and see what happens.

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The missing battery will cause the Plus to loose it's date/time, startup disk and various other settings when you unplug it. It can cause weird behaviour, plus it's a bit of a PITA, so I'd replace the battery. Other than that, I'd try a fresh format of the drive and a fresh System disk and see if that helps. You can get a clean copy of 6.0.8 here:

 

Disk 1

Disk 2

 

Download those, install them on the hard drive and try booting with just that connected (no floppy in the drive)... hopefully it should boot [:)]]'>

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One more thing to consider: When you reformat, be sure to use an interleave of 3:1. Most formatting tools default to 1:1. On the Plus, this can cause problems ranging from very slow performance, to boot failure (hmmm...sounds eerily familiar).

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You're not going to be able to open much in the System Folder with a System 6 Mac. The control panels (Sound, Mouse, Startup Disk, etc.) are designed to be opened from within the Control Panels desk accessory. If you don't, you're going to get the error message you get in the images.

 

The label on that external drive is definitely one from an IDE drive, but it is obviously plugged in via SCSI. I suppose that you swapped the controller board from a SCSI drive into an IDE drive?

 

On a Mac Plus, any drive you use with it must be formatted with a 3:1 interleave ratio. If the drive was formatted and system software was loaded on any other Mac, it will be incompatible with the Plus. You need to use Apple HD SC Setup from a boot disk on the Plus to initialize the drive with the correct interleave ratio.

 

The battery is going to be mostly a cosmetic issue on the Plus. I agree that you need to perform a fresh install of the system software. Tom's seems to have forgotten that the Plus only has an 800K floppy drive. ;) The 1.4 MB images he posted won't do you much good on the Plus. If you don't have a copy of the system software you want to install, post back and someone can get you a link.

 

It never hurts to try power cycling, but that doesn't seem to be the problem. The drive *sounds* like it's spinning up correctly and as expected, not to mention it's mounting on the desktop without any more intervention. It simply sounds like your problem is the drive is not bootable to me, and that's entirely a software/formatting issue.

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It never hurts to try power cycling, but that doesn't seem to be the problem. The drive *sounds* like it's spinning up correctly and as expected, not to mention it's mounting on the desktop without any more intervention. It simply sounds like your problem is the drive is not bootable to me, and that's entirely a software/formatting issue.

 

Well, not so fast, young bird. :)

 

I have had drives that were slow to spin up (as I mentioned before, either due to the infamous stiction problem that afflicted many drives of their generation, or from bearing grease that had gotten sticky with time). They frequently would not boot. However, I could mount them if I booted off of a floppy, just as described by the OP. If I did the power cycle trick, I could get them to boot reliably. So I wasn't speaking theoretically. I have directly observed this phenomenon.

 

That said, I do agree that it's a long shot, but it's such an easy experiment that it's worth a try.

 

Much more likely is a need to reformat at 3:1 interleave, and reinstall a clean Plus-compatible OS.

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Succes! (well, mostly)

 

Thanx a lot everyone for the help.

 

After trying various methods it works.

I've been trying lido, apple HD SC to change the interleave ratio, but since it isn't a apple hard disk, i had to search around but at last it works.

 

I can now boot Mac OS 6.0.8 from the hard disk.

 

However i'm not satisfied yet. I would like the Plus to boot mac os 7! (which doesn't exist in a 800k version)

I have another macintosh, so i thought about setting it up to network with the plus, but that's trickier than i thought.

 

The other macintosh is a black beauty, Performa 5400/180.

 

I downloaded a system disk called: Appleshare workstation.

Booting up from that disk let's me "see" my performa, but won't let me connect to it (causes a system error).

Installing Appleshare makes the Plus crash at boot: Sorry a system error occurred. ID=12.

 

 

Any ideas?

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AppleShare is part of the system software of both Macs. There should be no necessity to install it, and installing an inappropriate version may be producing the crash. Your aim is to set up the Performa as server and the Plus as client.

 

Connect the printer ports of the two Macs with a serial cable (DB-9/miniDIN-8). Switch on both Macs. Use Control Panels::AppleTalk to select Printer Port in both Macs. Save the settings when you are prompted. On the Performa, open Sharing Setup from Control Panels::Sharing Setup, enter the Mac's name, your name as Owner, and a password. Select Start to start up filesharing. If you have only one HDD in the Performa you will not need to go through setup of more than one HDD in File::Sharing... Activate the HDD in the checkbox, and adjust other permissions as you please. Check your permissions as owner to share files in Control Panels::Users and Groups by opening the file with your name.

 

Open Control Panels::Chooser on the Plus. Double-click on AppleShare in the left pane. The Plus should show the Performa's name in the right pane. Highlight the Performa's name, and then click on OK below the pane, enter your password in the next window, and choose the HDD or partition in the next window. A network AppleShare icon of the Performa's drive should appear on the Plus's desktop. You can open that (double-click) and navigate to whatever files you wish to copy (click/drag) to or from the HDD of the Plus. When you have finished copying, or at the end of a session, highlight the Performa's icon on the Plus's desktop and press command-y (eject) to disconnect the Plus from the Performa

 

I have a 512Ke (System 6.0.8) and a Classic II (System 7.5) connected thus at the moment. (My black 5400 and 5500s were enjoying RDOs.) LocalTalk networking is very much slower than Ethernet networking, but it works.

 

de

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Thanks for the information.

 

Still no succes however. Here's what i've done.

I've reinstalled mac os 6.0.8, and say there s a possibility to install extras, like appleshare (didn't notice that first)

 

So my macintosh plus has appleshare (or appletalk) installed now.

 

I can't acces my performa hard disk however.

There isn't any control panel::Appletalk either on system 6.0.8

 

Here's a little movie i made:

http://webs.hogent.be/~054169dv/mac/plusappleshare.mpg

And this is what my performa shows after my plus connected:

performa.jpg

 

thnx for all the help

 

Retro computing is cool!

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There is no 'or' involved. AppleTalk is the protocol for sending data, and AppleShare is a program to control who and what 'sees' what. You need both. LocalTalk (serial port to serial port) is the physical connection between Macs. LocalTalk was invented by Apple to allow several Macs to connect to a single (very expensive) LaserWriter, extended to allow Macs to connect to each other. It's part of the System, and it just 'is'. All you can do is substitute it with Ethernet in the Network Software control panel if that is installed and visible to you. The older Network control panel is invisible when it is installed, and works its magic unbeknownst to its user except by the results of its working.

 

Although you must set up the Performer as a server, the act of filesharing is controlled entirely from the Plus. In all probability you will see nothing in the Chooser window of the Performa. In the Chooser window of the client Plus you will see the name of the Performa, and the software will mount a representative network icon of the Performa's HDD on the desktop of the Plus. You must set up the Performa to share its files. You cannot invert the process (ie, make the Plus into the server) under 6.0.8 because there is no FileSharing control panel. Try the setup again with these immutable considerations in mind. You haven't mentioned the System/OS on the Performa. This won't change what you have to do, but what you see on the Performa will be displayed differently depending as the Performa has System 7 or OS 8 or 9.

 

Embroider this motto on your handkerchief and hang that on the wall: 'Never be defeated by an inanimate object'. If the setup is not working, you may have to consider that the fault lies in the Performa, and to fix that.

 

de

 

PS Loved the audio in your QuickTime production, but there was no video (iMac CRT 500, OS 10.4.10, QuickTime 7.2 with Pro key).

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You may find this easier:

http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_7.0.x/System_7.0.smi.bin

 

Apple has a copy of System 7.0 800K disk images on their website. You can download those to your Performa and make actual floppies, the same way you did with System 6.0.8.

 

 

As far as the file sharing issue goes, what size hard drive do you have in the Performa? Systems prior to 7.5 have issues connecting to partitions larger than 2 GB even on shared drives. I have the same problem when I try to connect some of my older Macs to a G4. Strangely, I've seen it both work and not work, but I haven't done enough testing to figure out exactly why.

 

Once you've installed System 7.0, you may have better luck configuring AppleTalk networking so that you can upgrade to 7.0.1.

 

 

Also, I can see the video just fine. The only thing different in my setup is QuickTime Pro 7.1.6 and a PowerBook G4.

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